Do I Have ADHD or Anxiety? Emotional Regulation and Systems That Work

On Teach Me How To Adult, host Gillian Berner talks with Shanna Pearson, founder of Expert ADHD Coaching and author of Invisible ADHD, about how ADHD shows up in women, why it is so often mistaken for anxiety or depression, and how to build systems small enough to stick.

Near the end, Shanna coaches Gillian live through the first step of her mortgage renewal.

In this episode

• What is known about dopamine in the ADHD brain, why ADHD runs in families, and living “on a different frequency”
• The inattentive type, and the invisible, internal hyperactivity that lets so many women go unnoticed
• How the GAD-7 and PHQ-9 screening tools lead many women with ADHD to an anxiety or depression diagnosis first, and why lifelong overwhelm is a sign to get assessed
• Masking and exhaustion, and building tiny, winnable systems one at a time, like always knowing where your keys are
• Why compartmentalizing is hard with ADHD, and getting out of your head with non-dominant handwriting and physical state changes
• Medication dosage, “one focus at a time,” planning around your mood, and a live coaching session on Gillian’s mortgage renewal

Episode links

• The episode page on teachmehowtoadult.ca, with show notes and the video
• The video on YouTube, titled “Do I Have ADHD or Anxiety? ADHD in Women, Emotional Regulation, Symptoms, and Systems That Work”
• Apple Podcasts and Spotify, for the audio episode

Transcript

This transcript follows the video above. Times are minutes and seconds into it. The video opens with a short preview of the conversation, and the audio episode runs about a minute longer, so its times differ.

Shanna Pearson (0:00): when you have ADHD, you tend to exist on a different frequency. Because we don't have as much dopamine, we tend to be experts on creating dopamine ourselves. The fact that we catastrophize, catastrophizing is a beautiful, unconscious way that our brain creates stimulus. Once you get started on the things that you've been procrastinating on, the momentum takes over.

Gillian Berner (0:23): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (0:23): Starting is everything. (upbeat music)

Gillian Berner (0:31): Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. I'm so excited to share today's episode with you because I have wanted, for a very long time, to do a deep dive into ADHD. It affects so many people around me, and it's been pretty life-changing for me to understand that I very likely have ADHD. I've done, like, all the self-assessments, and haven't done the formal diagnosis yet, but it makes a lot of sense. This is not news for anybody who's ever seen my organizational skills, my time management (chuckles) and my catastrophic thoughts, but I am definitely not alone in this. And there's also a lot of really interesting ways of thinking and superpowers that come with being ADHD that we talk about in this episode. So I'm really excited to dig in, and learning how my brain works has just given me a lot more self-compassion and self-understanding, and I'm really excited to implement some systems that will actually make my life easier now that I understand what I need better.

(1:27) And with us today to cover exactly this is Shanna Pearson. Shanna is the founder and director of the world's biggest one-on-one ADHD coaching company, working with thousands of adults with ADHD every year. She's the author of the bestselling book, Invisible ADHD, and she's appeared as an expert on NBC, Oprah Daily, Forbes, Dear Media, Canada AM, and many more. And this is a pretty vulnerable episode, because we actually do some live coaching that really digs into some of the areas that I struggle with, that bring up shame (chuckles) and are just uncomfortable to admit in front of all of my listeners. So it's a really interesting one, and may my discomfort bring you some learnings and some (chuckles) feelings of relatability. Shanna, thank you so much for being here today.

(2:13) I am so excited to talk to you about ADHD. It's literally one of our most requested episodes, so it is about damn time-

Shanna Pearson (2:21): Oh

Gillian Berner (2:21): ... that we tackle this. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (2:22): Good. It's good to be here.

Gillian Berner (2:24): I'd love to start with understanding a bit more about the science and, like, the brain biochemistry of ADHD. Can you shed a bit of light on how this impacts people's dopamine and how a neurodivergent brain is different?

Shanna Pearson (2:39): I can, I can specify that an ADHD brain is different-

Gillian Berner (2:43): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (2:43): ... because we have less- you just, in, in the simplest, most layman's term, because I'm not a scientist and I'm not a doctor, but in general-

Gillian Berner (2:53): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (2:53): ... um, we have less dopamine available in our brain, and we don't know why yet. Even though, we know we, we know so much about so many things, we're living in, you know, the end of 2025, where, like, AI is taking over-

Gillian Berner (3:07): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (3:07): ... we still don't know that, um, you know, whether we are... You know, do we just have less dopamine? Uh, does our brain produce less, or is there less available-

Gillian Berner (3:16): Mm

Shanna Pearson (3:16): ... to our brain based on, like, reuptake and, and whatnot? So you just have to know that we have less, period.

Gillian Berner (3:24): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (3:24): It's not like, you know, our brain is producing less. We don't know why. So because we don't have as much dopamine, um, we tend to be experts on creating dopamine ourselves.

Gillian Berner (3:37): Right.

Shanna Pearson (3:37): So just to sort of create a sense of, you know, balance or homeostasis, we will do things in our life and with our behaviors that will, you know, cr- create more dopamine. Like, people, you know, will call it, like, a dopamine hit.

Gillian Berner (3:49): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (3:49): But it's really what we do just to cr- just to create a sense of balance.

Gillian Berner (3:53): That's so interesting. I also didn't know that b- that people are born with it. So is there, like, a genetic component to it?

Shanna Pearson (4:00): One hundred percent. (chuckles) So when a person has ADHD, they were born with ADHD.

Gillian Berner (4:08): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (4:08): And usually, uh, some- there is a genetic component, and that means that, you know, normally, a very close family member will also have ADHD, whether it's, um, you know, a parent or a grandparent or an uncle or aunt.

Gillian Berner (4:23): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (4:23): You'll find the other person. (chuckles) Usually, if you were diagnosed with ADHD, you'll kind of- you'll- most people are like, "Oh," you know.

Gillian Berner (4:30): (chuckles) Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (4:30): They'll know which relative, like, is also like them, the relative-

Gillian Berner (4:34): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (4:34): ... that they tend to, you know, connect with, uh, on, on that level. But yeah, it is definitely genetic. That's already been, you know, proven many times over.

Gillian Berner (4:43): Yeah, I feel like we can always find the (chuckles) the person that is also ADHD.

Shanna Pearson (4:47): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (4:47): It's interesting how we, like, gravitate towards each other. I've really noticed my friend groups-

Shanna Pearson (4:51): Totally

Gillian Berner (4:51): ... the more belonging I have found, and the more, like, like-minded friends I have found, the more I'm like, "Wait, we all have something in common." (chuckles) It's really funny.

Shanna Pearson (4:59): Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing, too. Thank goodness for that, right? Like, it's kind of like, like, we sniff it out. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (5:06): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (5:06): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (5:06): Yeah, exactly.

Shanna Pearson (5:06): I think of it as when you have ADHD, you tend to exist on a different frequency. If you think about it, like, it's like a, a wavelength, right?

Gillian Berner (5:15): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (5:15): And so we've always- we've, we've spent most of our life feeling a little bit out of sync with everyone else. We're always, like, ahead, and it's like feeling impatient around other people or just, like... Or, or it's about yourself, like, "Why can't I just," you know, fill in the blank. And then, you know, we meet people who have the same type of brain wiring that we have, and it's just, like, it's, it's just, it's beautiful.

Gillian Berner (5:37): It is beautiful. Yeah, it's really cool.

Shanna Pearson (5:39): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (5:39): And then you get to see all the gifts in it, too.

Shanna Pearson (5:41): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (5:41): 'Cause I think we can be really hard on ourselves, but when we see people that we care about and love and even admire, and we see, like, the different way that their brain works, we can start to be like, "Oh, wow, there's so many cool things about it as well."

Shanna Pearson (5:53): Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, like, sometimes it's just a willingness and desire to do everything. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (6:00): Yeah. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (6:00): You know, like, there's, like, no filters, there's no borders. It's like, "Yeah, let's just do it! Let's do it, let's do it."

Gillian Berner (6:05): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (6:05): You know, those types of people. Or-

Gillian Berner (6:07): Exactly

Shanna Pearson (6:07): ... or it's just like a, an inc- an incredible... I find that, you know, in my circle, it's just a different type of honesty. It's like verbal, you know, just let it all out with a no filter, but we just- there's, there's not a lot that's being held back-

Gillian Berner (6:20): ... yeah, a lot less bullshit (chuckles) I find.

Shanna Pearson (6:22): Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Gillian Berner (6:25): Yeah, and what are the differences in how ADHD can show up? Because my understanding is that there's, there's three different types, generally speaking. There's the inattentive, the hyperactive-impulsive, and then combined.

Shanna Pearson (6:36): So that's the, that's the main understanding. You know, there's some, there's some doctors that are like, "Well, there's eight types," (chuckles) and then there're, you know-

Gillian Berner (6:43): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (6:43): ... like, like subcategories. But really, it's, you know, if you think of it back in the day, (chuckles) and there was, you know, ADD and ADHD.

Gillian Berner (6:53): Right.

Shanna Pearson (6:53): And ADHD was, like, the physical hyperactivity, you know, where it's just, like, the people that just couldn't stop moving and tended to be boys, right?

Gillian Berner (7:01): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (7:01): And, and then the ADD was the more of just, like, attention deficit, (chuckles) you know, where you're, like, in your mind, and that's pretty much the types, and then there's the combined. So now what used to be called ADD is now called ADHD I, and the I stands for inattentive.

Gillian Berner (7:20): Can you explain what that looks like a bit more? Because I think most people growing up had the idea of the hyperactive version of ADHD, but maybe a bit less of the, like, inattentive. So how does that display?

Shanna Pearson (7:33): People... The stereotype of ADHD is hyperactive.

Gillian Berner (7:38): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (7:38): And it's not at all the case when it comes to-

Gillian Berner (7:41): Yeah, yeah

Shanna Pearson (7:41): ... almost all women. (chuckles) So if, if you think of it like, um, if you think of it like an, an emotional or mental hyperactivity, where you're non-stop thinking and ruminating and untangling and retangling and second-guessing and just feeling like, like, thinking of every possible worst-case scenario, and then rethinking all of those again and again, or just daydreaming, you know, in a, in a, in a world of really, um, engaging scenarios (chuckles) that your brain sort of latches onto, it is non-stop. And everybody has a brain that's constantly thinking.

Gillian Berner (8:18): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (8:18): But for women with ADHD, we're in the most high-stimulus constant thinking mode, where-

Gillian Berner (8:25): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (8:25): ... which is why we tend to catastrophize, why we tend to, you know, just worry about everything, and just think of, you know, any possible scenario and second-guess all of our decisions.

Gillian Berner (8:34): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (8:35): Um, so it's, you think about it like high, high stimulus, thinking non-stop. That's the invisible hyperactivity. You can be sitting completely still-

Gillian Berner (8:45): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (8:46): ... and just doing this, and usually we are. We're, like, frozen or paralyzed, like, freaking out (chuckles) in our minds-

Gillian Berner (8:51): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (8:51): ... not moving at all, and so we're not disruptive.

Gillian Berner (8:54): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (8:54): We don't bother people with this. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (8:56): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (8:56): It's totally like-

Gillian Berner (8:56): It's very internal. It's internal.

Shanna Pearson (8:58): It's totally internal. So, like, we get, we... You know, we get- we, we go under the radar all the time, because we're not bothering anyone. There's no reason to be called out.

Gillian Berner (9:08): Yeah. It's really interesting how there's this, like, huge underdiagnosis of, of women who are hitting adulthood and being like, "Hang on, hang on. (chuckles) Like, something-

Shanna Pearson (9:17): Right

Gillian Berner (9:17): ... is going on here." And it, it makes so much sense. When I- I haven't done the formal diagnosis process, but I've done a lot of the self-assessments, because it was-

Shanna Pearson (9:25): Right

Gillian Berner (9:25): ... made very clear to me, by a lot of people who know me well, that they're like, "Hey, this might be a thing for you." (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (9:30): (laughs)

Gillian Berner (9:30): And it was really helpful, actually, 'cause I'd been, like, mad at myself.

Shanna Pearson (9:34): Oh.

Gillian Berner (9:34): I'd been like, "What the fuck's wrong with me? Like, why am I always late? Why am I so disorganized? Why do I get so overwhelmed?" All these things, I was, like, blaming them on myself as these character flaws that I should be able to do better. So it's been a very compassionate thing to be able to, like, uh, understand, you know, how, how ADHD-

Shanna Pearson (9:50): That's amazing

Gillian Berner (9:51): ... brain works a bit differently.

Shanna Pearson (9:52): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (9:52): But when I told a few people in my life, because I'm high-functioning, I've always done really well at school, really well at work, I don't... I- I'm not physically hyperactive. They're like, "There's no way. There's no way-

Shanna Pearson (10:02): Mm

Gillian Berner (10:02): ... that you have ADHD," because there, this is- it makes it so clear why women have been overlooked in this regard, because it's-

Shanna Pearson (10:09): Totally

Gillian Berner (10:09): ... so such an internal process, it seems, for a lot of women.

Shanna Pearson (10:12): Yeah, completely. And it- that's so interesting that you... What you just shared, because I feel like, honestly, that's the experience for probably 80% of our female clients. Almost over-functioning people, where they're just, like, amazing at everything, and they try so hard, and nobody knows that they actually, and you probably do too, (chuckles) that they worked five times harder than everyone else to get the same kind of results.

Gillian Berner (10:36): How stressful it is, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (10:37): It's stressful-

Gillian Berner (10:38): Yeah, exactly

Shanna Pearson (10:38): ... and you can't let yourself fail. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (10:40): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (10:40): You know, you just can't.

Gillian Berner (10:41): Oh, my God, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (10:41): Because then it just means that everyone else was always right (chuckles) about, about you-

Gillian Berner (10:45): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (10:45): ... and, you know, why you're possibly different than a lot of other people. But what you just shared is, is, is so common, and honestly, like, you're saying that your friends are saying things like this, but doctors say that.

Gillian Berner (10:56): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (10:56): Doctors will look at a woman who's like, "Well, how are your grades?" "Oh, well, I'm getting straight A's." "Oh, then you definitely don't have ADHD."

Gillian Berner (11:03): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (11:04): So it's just- it's really- it's awful when a doctor's telling you that, because obviously you're gonna listen to your doctor.

Gillian Berner (11:09): Yeah. Yeah-

Shanna Pearson (11:10): Yeah

Gillian Berner (11:10): ... exactly. Um-

Shanna Pearson (11:11): So then what else is wrong with me? (chuckles) Like, okay.

Gillian Berner (11:14): Exactly, and it sounds like there's also a lot of misdiagnosis of, of ADHD in terms of, of thinking that it might be anxiety or depression. I'd love to hear a bit more about how interplays and maybe, like, mimics other health conditions, or if you're more likely to have mental health conditions if you have ADHD, or if there's just so much symptom overlap, how does it all work?

Shanna Pearson (11:34): You have ADHD. You haven't been officially diagnosed, but you did the screenings. Is that what you said?

Gillian Berner (11:39): Did the screenings, and it was a, it was a yes. (chuckles) It was a-

Shanna Pearson (11:42): Okay

Gillian Berner (11:42): ... high on the scale. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (11:44): So you can be our, you can be our pretend, our pretend-

Gillian Berner (11:47): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (11:47): ... person to, like-

Gillian Berner (11:49): Put me-

Shanna Pearson (11:49): You know, you're not exactly sure what's going on. Um, I'm, I'm- this is, like, a typical woman who has ADHD. I try so hard. I do everything I'm supposed to do.

Gillian Berner (12:00): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (12:00): Um, I have, you know, my work, my kids, my, my partner, my whatever, my friends, you know, like, a million different, like, boxes in our life, and I, and I just, I'm always late. I'm always running behind. I'm constantly thinking, like, ahead of everything, and yet, I'm always- I'm still behind. (chuckles) You know, um, so-... why, you know, why is it that everyone else seems to have, like, reached this level of adulting (chuckles) and I haven't?

Gillian Berner (12:22): Exactly. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (12:23): I'm still single, and I still don't know what I want, and I don't know what I wanna do when I'm older. Like, oh, my gosh, it took me until for- I feel like forever to finally figure out what my thing was. And so you tell your doctor about all of these things, and they give you a screening, and I, I show this, like, everywhere. Like, I've been on, like, TV shows, like, showing these screening tools. Do you see this? This is the GAD-7.

Gillian Berner (12:42): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (12:42): And this is-

Gillian Berner (12:43): And GAD-7, that's generalized anxiety disorder.

Shanna Pearson (12:44): The generalized anxiety disorder.

Gillian Berner (12:46): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (12:46): Um, and, and, and this is what your doctor gives you as a screening for anxiety. Okay?

Gillian Berner (12:51): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (12:51): Tell me if any of these sound familiar. Like, for a person who has ADHD, you're feeling nervous, it's hard for you to control your worrying.

Gillian Berner (12:58): Oh, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (12:58): How about, you know, trouble relaxing? (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (13:02): Yeah. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (13:02): You know-

Gillian Berner (13:03): 100%

Shanna Pearson (13:03): ... unable to sit still, being, you know, easily annoyed, feeling afraid as if something terrible might happen. The fact that we catastrophize-

Gillian Berner (13:11): Mm

Shanna Pearson (13:11): ... all the time because that's a stimulus. Like, catastrophizing is a beautiful unconscious way that our brain creates stimulus.

Gillian Berner (13:19): Oh, interesting.

Shanna Pearson (13:20): Think about it. Like-

Gillian Berner (13:21): Is that, is that why there's, like, all or nothing thinking a lot with ADHD as well? It's like-

Shanna Pearson (13:24): 100%.

Gillian Berner (13:25): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (13:25): Because it's high stimulus. It's like there's nothing... If you're just thinking like, "Everything's fine," that's not so stimulating as like, "Holy crap, the world is about to end." (chuckles) You know?

Gillian Berner (13:35): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (13:35): Like, that's like our brain likes that. Our brain needs it, even though it's not good for us.

Gillian Berner (13:40): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (13:40): It's not good for our soul. It's not good for our life, but our brain gravitates towards that.

Gillian Berner (13:45): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (13:45): So we are professional catastrophizers, and we don't wanna be-

Gillian Berner (13:49): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (13:49): ... but we are. And so this, this is the screening for anxiety. But every single woman with ADHD, everyone is gonna answer at least in the middle or to the, or to the, you know, very much do so-

Gillian Berner (14:02): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (14:02): ... side of this, of these questions. And so you will be diagnosed with some level of anxiety.

Gillian Berner (14:08): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (14:08): Whether it's severe anxiety or moderate anxiety-

Gillian Berner (14:10): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (14:11): ... you're gonna be screened for that. And so the other thing-

Gillian Berner (14:15): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (14:15): ... is that these are screening tools, but, um, as you probably know, if you're a lot of doctors, they're not diagnostic tools, and they're meant to tell people, "Maybe you need to look into this. Maybe you need to get a more thorough diagnosis."

Gillian Berner (14:29): Right.

Shanna Pearson (14:29): But the fact is, in our world of what, what we like to say or not like to, but what we call lazy medicine-

Gillian Berner (14:36): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (14:37): ... a lot of medical professionals use these screening tools and then just write a prescription based on-

Gillian Berner (14:43): Right

Shanna Pearson (14:43): ... the screening tools.

Gillian Berner (14:44): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (14:44): So now you have a woman who has ADHD, and you've had it your whole life, and now you're being given anti-anxiety medication. So you've been misdiagnosed, you're being mismedicated, and your ADHD is not gonna be feeling a lot better, although your, you know, anxiety-type, (chuckles) you know, symptoms might be. But you're still gonna--now it's gonna be like three years later, I'm still not, you know, doing what I wanna be doing. I'm, I'm having a really hard time following through on things. I still always procrastinate.

Gillian Berner (15:11): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (15:11): Um, you know, I'm constantly overwhelmed. All of these things that are not necessarily anxiety-related-

Gillian Berner (15:16): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (15:16): ... and you don't know why.

Gillian Berner (15:17): The behaviors are still there. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (15:18): Yeah, you don't know why, but you're doing everything your doctor said you should do, so that's a problem. And the same thing (chuckles) with depression. A lot of, um, a lot of our female clients, including myself, by the way, um, were misdiagnosed with depression-

Gillian Berner (15:33): Wow

Shanna Pearson (15:34): ... before being diagnosed with in, with ADHD. And so that's also a problem because now you're gonna be on antidepressants (chuckles) and you're... And for some people, that actually makes them feel depressed, even if they're not depressed initially.

Gillian Berner (15:46): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (15:47): So it's just, it's just another thing. And I can show you, if you want, I can show you the, the questionnaire for depression, or just you can look it up. But the PHQ-9 is the, uh-

Gillian Berner (15:56): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (15:56): ... is the, is the initial depression screening. And it's really, um, it's very similar to the anxiety, where we will basically be answering, you know, almost all the time or every single day to most of these, eight out of the nine, we're gonna-- a person with ADHD is gonna be answering, you know, feeling, you know, not having as much energy for things I don't enjoy, um, feeling-

Gillian Berner (16:20): Yeah. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (16:20): ... bad about myself.

Gillian Berner (16:22): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (16:22): Trouble concent- trouble concentrating on things. Like, these are all ADHD symptoms, so that's a problem.

Gillian Berner (16:30): For people listening, if they're like, "I've been feeling a lot of these things. I've been thinking maybe it's anxiety or depression, I don't know," is the next step for them when they go to the doctor to be screened for all of those things, but to also advocate for themselves in terms of looking into ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (16:47): You have to.

Gillian Berner (16:48): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (16:48): You have to look into ADHD because there's such a humongous overlap. If you suspect that you have anxiety or depression, also get screened for ADHD, and make sure-

Gillian Berner (16:59): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (16:59): ... it's by a person who understands how ADHD presents in women.

Gillian Berner (17:03): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (17:03): It's not just about executive functioning, it's not just about being late, (chuckles) or, you know, I'm disorganized. For women, I think one of the biggest telltale signs that you should, that you should look for and you should ask yourself if this has been your experience for most of your life, for women, it's really this incredibly huge sense of overwhelm.

Gillian Berner (17:25): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (17:26): Which is neither anxiety or depression, but it is very much so ADHD. Like, if your life experience is basically everything all at once right now-

Gillian Berner (17:36): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (17:37): ... which is how I describe overwhelm, because it is. It's like everything all at once right now, yesterday, and tomorrow.

Gillian Berner (17:42): Yeah. (chuckles) Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (17:43): If that is your general experience, and that's been your experience since you can remember, (chuckles) since you were in, like, grade school, please go and get a diag- you know, a real assessment or a diagnosis with a professional who really understands ADHD in women.

Gillian Berner (17:59): Yeah, I think a lot of people are gonna be able to relate to this (chuckles) and be like, "Oh, okay, this is-

Shanna Pearson (18:03): Right

Gillian Berner (18:03): ... what's happening." (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (18:04): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (18:04): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (18:04): I mean, you know, if, if, if you've been on anti-anxiety medication or antidepressants and it's not doing what you wanted it to do, then, you know, likely you've been-

Gillian Berner (18:12): That's a sign. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (18:13): Yeah, (chuckles) that's a good sign. Also, there's, you know, a lot of times people have both, those comorbid conditions, where you have ADHD and anxiety or, and depression. Um, and so now you're only being treated for one.... not the other. So, yeah.

Gillian Berner (18:27): Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Shanna Pearson (18:29): So what it's, it's actually great news. It really is, because if your medication is not working for you, or if whatever, you know, management strategies you've been using, um, for anxiety or depression haven't been working for you that well, and it's because you also have ADHD, then honestly, you're in luck, because ADHD is very manageable. And so, you know, as long as you finally find out that you have ADHD, you know, you're- you can, you can manage it.

Gillian Berner (18:56): We were talking before about how, like, so many women are, you know, high-functioning, doing so well at work, you know, doing all of the things. They're showing up in a way that doesn't necessarily reveal that they have ADHD, or the, the symptoms are really hidden. So I know that's referred to as masking, and there's- it's, it's pretty exhausting spending (chuckles) a lot of your life masking if you haven't had a diagnosis, if you don't really know what's going on, or if you're just not really being believed. And in order to exist and thrive in society, there, there kind of is some masking that happens. Is... Do you, do you know what the impact of this is? Or how do we kind of start to unmask, if that's, uh, something that we've been doing?

Shanna Pearson (19:35): I think the impact is pure, 100%, total exhaustion.

Gillian Berner (19:41): I know, exhaustion.

Shanna Pearson (19:41): It's, it's, it's a feeling of your, of comp- like, I'm not just like, "I'm tired after a day's work," but, "I'm completely spent." If you've been masking for a long time, that's the experience, that's how it feels, and it's like you just can't... It's, it, it's also why people get misdiagnosed with depression, because you just feel like you cannot go on, you cannot keep doing this, and you don't know why.

Gillian Berner (20:05): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (20:06): Of course, there's a way to fix this. (chuckles) If you've been masking and, and, and trying so hard to, to be, you know, somebody who you're not, it, it... This sounds really dumb, and it's like a, a replica of a Bob Newhart video from, like, the 1970s or something-

Gillian Berner (20:24): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (20:24): ... where it's, like, really funny, where he's just telling- he's pretending to be a psychiatrist, and he's like: "Stop it. Just stop it!" (laughing)

Gillian Berner (20:30): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (20:30): And she's like: "But I feel like I'm dying in a box, and I'm gonna suffocate." He's like, "Well, stop it.

Gillian Berner (20:35): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (20:35): That'll be $10, please." (chuckles) Um, but it's so funny. But, but if you, if you have been masking, you need to f- you, you need to know that that's what you've been doing, and that's why you're so flippin' tired.

Gillian Berner (20:47): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (20:47): Okay?

Gillian Berner (20:48): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (20:48): So what do you need to do to stop doing that? Find other strategies (chuckles) so that you're not masking. You know?

Gillian Berner (20:54): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (20:54): If it, if it's like you're trying so hard to be on time when you always are late, set up a system where you're not. And like, I, I can say this really easily because I actually do this every single day with thousands and thousands of clients, but it's not easy to set up a system.

Gillian Berner (21:10): No, it's not.

Shanna Pearson (21:10): But it is easy- it's not, but it is easy to follow it once you've set it up.

Gillian Berner (21:16): Right, right.

Shanna Pearson (21:16): And that's what's the most important thing to know, because masking for your entire life is not doable.

Gillian Berner (21:22): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (21:22): It's not doable. But setting up some kind of system where you can actually get up, uh, you know, at a time of day where you're not, like, scrambling for the rest of the entire day, um, that is doable, and it takes effort, and it is not easy, no matter what anyone wants to tell you on TikTok. And it is possible, and so you- so when you're committed to that, and you do it, and you follow it, and then it eventually becomes part of your way of being, your entire world will change.

Gillian Berner (21:51): Yeah, the setting up of the systems is really hard, but that's why then it's, it's important to have the help and the support, support in doing those things, because it's like-

Shanna Pearson (22:00): Right

Gillian Berner (22:00): ... for me, organization and systems, uh, it's, it's like a foreign language, like-

Shanna Pearson (22:04): Awful

Gillian Berner (22:04): ... I just can't seem to implement any.

Shanna Pearson (22:06): Yeah. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (22:06): It's so hard, and so I'm just living in a constant state of chaos-

Shanna Pearson (22:11): Right!

Gillian Berner (22:11): ... because I'm not able to-

Shanna Pearson (22:12): Right

Gillian Berner (22:12): ... set up structure for myself.

Shanna Pearson (22:14): Mm.

Gillian Berner (22:15): And I think that it- I mean, some of it might ladder up into this, like, need for stimulus that-

Shanna Pearson (22:21): Chaos

Gillian Berner (22:21): ... people with ADHD. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (22:22): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (22:22): And literally, my, like, on my tombstone, I think my friends would put, like-

Shanna Pearson (22:26): (laughing)

Gillian Berner (22:26): ... like, "She, she thrived in chaos," or, "She always lived in chaos." And like, the urgency-

Shanna Pearson (22:32): That's hilarious. (laughing)

Gillian Berner (22:33): ... the last-minute nature of everything and just, like, always needing novelty and, like, an aversion to everything being the same and overly routine. So I feel like this is a bit of a cycle that I'm trapped in, that I'm trying to break, and I'm- I would love to know if you have any advice for how we can feed this need for stimulus in a healthier way and this need for dopamine in a healthier way.

Shanna Pearson (22:54): Oh, for sure. Well, why- when you say you're trying to break it, why are you trying to break it?

Gillian Berner (23:00): Well, because I'm sure I'm adding so much, like, stress and chaos and anxiety by, like, needing to procrastinate to the last minute so that there's urgency, and by, like, you know, kind of creating these, these scenarios where I'm c- like, kind of constantly in chaos.

Shanna Pearson (23:14): So you know you're constantly in chaos.

Gillian Berner (23:16): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (23:16): But, like, let's pick one, 'cause, like, procrastination, in my opinion, is not really about last-minute, um, stimulus. It's about overwhelm.

Gillian Berner (23:24): Oh, interesting.

Shanna Pearson (23:25): Usually, and it's not always, but usually, we procrastinate because we just don't have any idea of how to start.

Gillian Berner (23:33): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (23:33): And the starting is just too, like, "I could do this, I could do that, I could do that, I could do that, or I could just go watch TV." (chuckles) You know?

Gillian Berner (23:40): Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (23:41): (chuckles) Or, "I could just go shopping for this thing that I really need, and I just remembered I, I wanted." Right?

Gillian Berner (23:46): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (23:46): So usually that's why we procrastinate. Um-

Gillian Berner (23:49): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (23:50): ... the disorganization, chaos, the external chaos, why would you wanna, why would you wanna change that?

Gillian Berner (23:57): I, I mean, I think because (chuckles) it's, it's just keeping me in a constant state of stress and anxiety. Like, when I can't find anything, when I'm always late, like, when I- I think the way that I'm just naturally defaulting to creates... It creates constant stress. Like, I don't actually enjoy it, but I don't know a way out.

Shanna Pearson (24:17): Okay. Have you ever, like, have you ever gone into this? 'Cause if we were coaching right now, and we had a whole hour just for me to, like, drill you, 'cause I will-

Gillian Berner (24:24): Yeah. (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (24:25): (laughing) I mean, I want you to- number one, you need to write down, "I don't enjoy it."

Gillian Berner (24:31): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (24:31): "It causes stress."

Gillian Berner (24:33): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (24:33): But then I wanna, then I, then I need to know-... what does the stress do in your life, and who else does it impact?

Gillian Berner (24:39): Oh, I mean, I definitely think it, it has an impact. Like, I know it bothers people that I'm, that I'm always late for things. And I know that it... Like, I have constant anxiety when I have to be somewhere, 'cause I'm like, I, I can't seem to figure out how to get anywhere on time. And so then I'm gonna have so much anxiety. I'm gonna show up with anxiety. I'm gonna spend the first few minutes being anxious that everyone's mad at me because I'm late, and that I've let everyone down, or that anyone's gonna feel like I've disrespected their time, and then the spiral.

Shanna Pearson (25:06): Right. So, so at some point, you need to write down all of the, all of the steps in the spiral, 'cause there's a lot there. There's how you feel about yourself.

Gillian Berner (25:15): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (25:15): There's... This is just what I caught, like, in the last couple minutes and, or seconds. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (25:19): Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (25:19): How you feel about yourself. You said stress, anxiety-

Gillian Berner (25:23): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (25:23): ... showing up for, not showing up for other people, who I'm- I assume are people you care about. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (25:28): Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (25:29): Right? Um, or people who you're trying to, you know, if it's, like, a work thing or, you know-

Gillian Berner (25:33): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (25:33): ... people that you're trying to, like, be the best you you can be for.

Gillian Berner (25:37): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (25:38): Right? And so, and that's just, like, the tip of the iceberg.

Gillian Berner (25:41): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (25:42): Right? And so when you think about what type of impact that has on your life, you would, and I would have you, create a very big reason for why you would wanna change this one area of just external chaos.

Gillian Berner (25:57): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (25:57): Like, we're talking about organization, so we go one thing at a time. I'm not saying-

Gillian Berner (26:00): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (26:00): ... we need to change your entire life right now. Pick this one area.

Gillian Berner (26:05): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (26:05): Why would you wanna be more organized?

Gillian Berner (26:08): I think it, it would f- free up some of my time to focus on, on things that I actually wanna be doing. I think it would reduce stress and anxiety. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (26:17): What else?

Gillian Berner (26:18): It would reduce shame. I think I definitely carry shame around being just scattered.

Shanna Pearson (26:25): Mm.

Gillian Berner (26:25): I've always been super scattered. And it's like, when you see everyone else operating in one way and you're not operating in that way, there's, like, a shame that comes up.

Shanna Pearson (26:32): So how does that show up for, in your life on a day-to-day basis? Do you think that affects you?

Gillian Berner (26:38): Yeah, I think there's avoidance that shows up. Like, like, I literally-

Shanna Pearson (26:41): Yeah

Gillian Berner (26:41): ... have a rule, like, "Don't ever just drop in on me. Like, don't drop by-"

Shanna Pearson (26:45): Oh, (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (26:45): "... 'cause I'll be too ashamed of how messy my house will be or it'll be..." You know, I'm sure there's other ways it shows up, but that's, like, a really clear one, where I actually would love people to just drop in on me, but-

Shanna Pearson (26:56): Right

Gillian Berner (26:56): ... it's being trumped by the feeling of-

Shanna Pearson (26:59): Yeah

Gillian Berner (26:59): ... I can't let people see what a shit show I'm, I'm, you know, I have going on.

Shanna Pearson (27:04): So how does that... So, so that actually affects your life and your friendships and your relationships?

Gillian Berner (27:09): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (27:10): So once we go, like, a lot deeper, and I'm, I'm not gonna do it right now, 'cause we don't have an-

Gillian Berner (27:14): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (27:14): ... entire hour, but you have some pretty... This is not just something you think you should do. 'Cause there's a difference between those things that, "Well, I should be a little bit neater." (chuckles) "I should organize this or that." Like, that's-

Gillian Berner (27:30): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (27:30): ... different than what you just described.

Gillian Berner (27:32): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (27:33): This is something you, you have to do unless you feel like spending the next, you know, 50 years (chuckles) living... 'Cause obviously, if, if, if you, if we keep doing the exact same thing again and again, like, you know, like-

Gillian Berner (27:47): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (27:47): ... it's not, it, like, and there's, there's no proof that it ever makes anything better. So then, you know, as you would, we would put some external structures in place that are super, super, super tiny and doable for you.

Gillian Berner (27:59): Yeah. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (28:00): You know, whether it's just, like, even if it's just, like, finding your keys super easily so that you're never late for people when you need to run out the door.

Gillian Berner (28:07): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (28:08): You know, like, the very first thing and, like, creating that home for your key and creating... Like, I talk about all of this in my book, and I give, like, very clear, step-by-step, here's what you need to do, and here's how to do it, and here's, you know, some rules that you can create for yourself. But the point is, is what everyone should, should understand, is that you shouldn't ever create systems that are big or difficult-

Gillian Berner (28:34): Mm

Shanna Pearson (28:34): ... because we won't do them.

Gillian Berner (28:36): Yeah, they're overwhelming.

Shanna Pearson (28:38): It's overwhelming, and it's not winnable, and I'm a huge believer that people who have ADHD need to do things in the tiniest, most minuscule steps possible and then keep building on those steps.

Gillian Berner (28:50): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (28:50): And by doing things this way, it takes very little time to actually take those big steps. Tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, and then it's like, oh, my God, you know, and then you're constantly winning, winning, winning, winning.

Gillian Berner (29:02): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (29:02): And before you know it, it's been, like, one month or it's been two months, and your entire world is, like, in a much better place. Whereas, if you just try to create this whole system (chuckles) for, like, organization of your clothes, and your, like, when to do laundry, and your keys, and your phone, and your chargers, and... Forget about it.

Gillian Berner (29:19): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (29:19): Just-

Gillian Berner (29:19): Which is exactly-

Shanna Pearson (29:20): ... just forget about it

Gillian Berner (29:20): ... what I would do, because I'd be like-

Shanna Pearson (29:22): Yeah, I know (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (29:22): ... "I've had enough of my shit. I'm blowing this up-

Shanna Pearson (29:24): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (29:24): ... and I'm gonna start-"

Shanna Pearson (29:25): I'm done. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (29:25): "... everything."

Shanna Pearson (29:26): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (29:26): And then it's too much, and then you can't sustain it.

Shanna Pearson (29:28): Exactly.

Gillian Berner (29:28): So it, it makes so much sense. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (29:30): So just pi- so just pick one, Gillian.

Gillian Berner (29:33): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (29:33): Just pick-

Gillian Berner (29:33): Okay

Shanna Pearson (29:34): ... one thing, and, like, maybe, you know, maybe that's, like, making sure you get out the door on time, like, like, making sure you never are looking for your keys, or making sure, you know, you, you pick out what you're gonna wear the next day, the night, the night beforehand, 'cause you tend to get stuck in that overthinking.

Gillian Berner (29:47): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (29:47): Yeah, a lot of women do that, where they- it takes them, like, an hour to get dressed instead of 10 minutes, right? So-

Gillian Berner (29:53): So true

Shanna Pearson (29:53): ... one little, tiny thing, and you just do that, and you do that for a week, and then the next week you can do one- one other tiny little thing, right?

Gillian Berner (30:02): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (30:02): And so, like, put a key ring next to your door and hang your keys there. That's it.

Gillian Berner (30:06): Yeah. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (30:07): (laughs) You know?

Gillian Berner (30:07): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (30:07): Or whatever it is. Like, I'm just, you know, I'm just, I'm just saying whatever, you know, the simplest things. But the trick is, is if you have a big enough reason, which you do, and you're able to create the tiniest changes, tiny, that are, like, fail-proof, like things that you will 100% be able to do, then literally in one month, you're gonna have that part of your life in a much, much, much better place.

Gillian Berner (30:37): That's so helpful. Yeah, the r- the, the small steps. And I can imagine, like, if you set out to, to make that small change, and you, like, accomplish it, then that's, like, firing the reward system-

Shanna Pearson (30:48): That's it

Gillian Berner (30:48): ... 'cause you did it.

Shanna Pearson (30:49): That's what it is. It's like a-

Gillian Berner (30:50): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (30:50): ... that's what I call positive stimulus. So before, you asked me, you know, well, our brain has all of these, you know, genius ways (laughs) of creating these negative, you know, where it's external chaos or catastrophizing-

Gillian Berner (31:01): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (31:01): ... or, or, you know, daydreaming and never being present with people, um, who you're sitting right in front of, (chuckles) right?

Gillian Berner (31:07): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (31:07): And just, like, always somewhere else, and tho- that's what I call negative stimulus because the negativity is, is... it's because it takes us further away from what we really want.

Gillian Berner (31:18): Right. Right.

Shanna Pearson (31:19): And positive stimulus is what brings- is, are the stimulus that brings us closer to what we really want.

Gillian Berner (31:27): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (31:27): So a positive stimulus would be a win.

Gillian Berner (31:30): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (31:30): So you've set a goal, "I, I never- I'm never gonna lose my keys again. I'm always gonna know exactly where they are," or, "I'm al- I'm not gonna ever spend more than, you know, 40 minutes getting ready in the morning," when sometimes I take two hours, and I don't even realize it. Um, whatever it is, the positive stimulus is gonna be the win when you can actually do it, you know, do something differently for a week straight that, that gets you towards your goal.

Gillian Berner (31:54): Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

Shanna Pearson (31:56): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (31:56): I want to dive also into emotional regulation for ADHD, 'cause this is such a interesting one that, like, to your earlier point, I don't think is... It's not the stereotypical thing we think of with ADHD, and yet this is what so many people that I, that I love and care about, who are- who have been talking to me about their ADHD issues, they're like, "Oh, my God. My emotional regulation, it doesn't exist. Like, everything is overwhelming. Everything is huge. My reactions are huge. It's, it's kind of all or nothing thinking," all of these things that show up. I, I'm interested in learning a bit more about how we can manage these things, and I also wanted to talk about the, the trouble that crops up in ADHD with compartmentalization. Because this, to me, makes so much sense about how it's hard to, to compartmentalize, um, in terms of the way we think and the way that we feel and emotional regulation. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (32:47): So compartmentalization is, um, the everything all at once right now.

Gillian Berner (32:52): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (32:52): Like, we have a brain that can't separate-

Gillian Berner (32:56): Right

Shanna Pearson (32:56): ... which is why we're always thinking about everything-

Gillian Berner (32:58): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (32:58): ... all at the same time. Um, and then that leads to our inability to manage our moods. Because how on earth are you supposed to manage anything when you've got, like, a 50,000 billion things (chuckles) going on in your head all at the same time?

Gillian Berner (33:09): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (33:09): And a lot of them are upsetting, so you're just gonna explode, right?

Gillian Berner (33:13): Exactly. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (33:13): But the thing is for, for compartmentalization, it goes back to what we were just talking about. You have to be very, like, on purpose. You have to do- you have to externalize a lot of things. Because you have a brain that's not able to compartmentalize, you need to write a lot of things down.

Gillian Berner (33:30): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (33:31): Otherwise, everything gets lost, (chuckles) you know-

Gillian Berner (33:33): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (33:33): ... within a minute. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (33:34): Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (33:35): Like, "This is so important! What was that?" (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (33:37): It's gone.

Shanna Pearson (33:38): Right? It's-

Gillian Berner (33:38): It's gone. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (33:38): It's gone. Externalizing and then doing... Like I was talking about with the- with your, our mock, (chuckles) uh, chaot- you know, organization strategies. You do one thing at a time, and that is how to manage a brain that is not able to compartmentalize.

Gillian Berner (33:58): Right.

Shanna Pearson (33:59): And so it goes completely against the regular, everyday, neurotypical, like, mult- you know, like, multitask. You know-

Gillian Berner (34:07): Right

Shanna Pearson (34:07): ... I can do this, and this, and this, and this, and I can do it all at the same time, and that's actually kind of fun, so we sort of like doing it that way.

Gillian Berner (34:13): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (34:13): But it doesn't work. So y- you know, you can, you can ask, like, "Do I wanna do what's, you know, that's interesting, or do I wanna do what's actually gonna work to get me what I really want, which is maybe even more interesting?"

Gillian Berner (34:24): Hmm.

Shanna Pearson (34:24): So if you can... Like, the original name of my coaching company in Canada, (chuckles) which is, you know, when I first started this, was One Focus-

Gillian Berner (34:32): Ah

Shanna Pearson (34:32): ... Total Success, Incorporated. Because one focus at a time is what works, and it's actually what gets us results so much faster than trying to-

Gillian Berner (34:42): Right

Shanna Pearson (34:42): ... do, you know, 30 things all at the same time. That's what you need to do. So it's like, like, you know, the one, you know, the key ring, right? Or the-

Gillian Berner (34:49): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (34:49): ... you know, or setting your clothes out the night before or that one thing, and then you've got that part, you know, managed this much, only a little, tiny bit. And then, like, what's the next thing you're gonna do to manage it a little bit more? And then the next thing.

Gillian Berner (35:00): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (35:01): One thing at a time.

Gillian Berner (35:02): But that's hard to do with our emotions and our thoughts. Like, how does that apply? Like, how do we actually implement that with, with kind of emotional regulation? 'Cause if you're, like, kind of getting flooded with, like, a bunch of different... Like, everything's leaking into each other. You've thought about this thing that was upsetting, and now it's brought up all these three other things that triggered a similar emotion. So is it just being disciplined with what we, what we focus on, or how do we actually, like, do that singular focus when it comes to emotion?

Shanna Pearson (35:31): Well, well, you don't do a singular focus when it comes to emotion because that's... You can't, you can't focus on one emotion at a time.

Gillian Berner (35:40): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (35:41): If you're managing your moods, and, and I know, I know in my... It, it just happens to be in my book, that M- Mood Management 101 (chuckles) is, like-

Gillian Berner (35:49): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (35:49): ... it's the longest chapter in my entire book because there's so many things that we can do.

Gillian Berner (35:57): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (35:57): And I think at the end of the day, one of the-... the simplest things I would tell people, and so I'll tell you, (chuckles) is, is, are, are the tools, and all of these tools are in- are in my book, but it all comes down to getting out of your head.

Gillian Berner (36:12): Hmm.

Shanna Pearson (36:13): You can manage your mood by getting as out of your head as you possibly can, because your head is gonna be overflowing nonstop all of the time. I'm gonna give you an example. Okay, um, I came up with this when I was in elementary school, and I didn't know why I was doing this, it just worked. (chuckles) So, and, and it's... And again, it's, like, one of the things that's in my book, but just to give you an example of what it means to get out of your head. So you're super, super upset about something. (chuckles) You know, somebody spoke to you the wrong way, so-and-so didn't call you for three days, um, you got laid off from a job, your friends did something without you. Whatever it is, you're pissed. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (36:53): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (36:53): You're pissed-

Gillian Berner (36:53): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (36:53): ... and you can't get it out of your head, (chuckles) right?

Gillian Berner (36:56): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (36:56): 'Cause it's like, and now it's getting bigger, and bigger, and bigger, and it's, like, dripping into everything, and it's, like, awful. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (37:01): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (37:01): So-

Gillian Berner (37:01): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (37:01): ... so in order to get out of that, one of the, one of the things that I, um, that I love doing with our clients and that I always have done for myself is, I call it non-dominant handwriting.

Gillian Berner (37:12): Hmm.

Shanna Pearson (37:12): So, so you force yourself, so you get out- to get out of that emotion, right? 'Cause you're gonna try to switch the emotions around. Come up with one reason or solution that kind of makes sense for what happened. Okay, your friends did something without you, and you're super pissed, like, "How dare they?" (chuckles) What's the one reason or possibility for why they did that? You know, and usually we'll be able to come up with one.

Gillian Berner (37:37): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (37:37): Something that we did, something that we said, something that maybe we hadn't done initially or something. There's just some reason or so-and-so was, like, all- really overwhelmed herself, and she could only invite three people (chuckles) for whatever.

Gillian Berner (37:49): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (37:49): Whatever it is, you come up with that one idea, and you write it out with your non-dominant hand.

Gillian Berner (37:58): Hmm.

Shanna Pearson (37:59): So now you're thinking, instead of thinking about, like, all of the anger, and the upset, and the blame, and the, you know, self-deprecating thoughts, so you're like, "I suck, nobody likes me," et cetera, now you're just thinking about how to write that stupid letter A. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (38:12): (chuckles) Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (38:13): You know? And, like, where do I put that little line in the middle?

Gillian Berner (38:15): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (38:15): And, like, and you're just-

Gillian Berner (38:16): Pulls all your focus. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (38:18): You're, you're focusing on something else, but you're focusing on a solution-

Gillian Berner (38:22): Right

Shanna Pearson (38:22): ... or a reason, or something that actually, when you're f- when you're concentrating on it, maybe you forgot that, that, you know, if it was something that, like, a friend did to you, maybe you forgot about what your friend's situation was. You write it down three times-

Gillian Berner (38:36): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (38:37): ... with your non-dominant hand.

Gillian Berner (38:39): Right.

Shanna Pearson (38:39): And instantly, like, not instantly, 'cause it takes a long time. It takes, like, five minutes to do this, but five minutes is not a big deal, rather than stewing in something for an entire day or month-

Gillian Berner (38:48): Oh, my God, yeah (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (38:49): ... then, you know, you're in a different state.

Gillian Berner (38:52): Hmm.

Shanna Pearson (38:52): You're in a different state, um-

Gillian Berner (38:54): And it requires your full presence, you know, which I think is-

Shanna Pearson (38:57): Yeah

Gillian Berner (38:57): ... when we have these, like, emotional spirals, like, you're not present in anything you're doing. You're in, like, you're everywhere but here.

Shanna Pearson (39:03): You're on the ex- you're on the exterior.

Gillian Berner (39:05): Yeah. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (39:06): Right, so this kind of like, whoosh, pew, (chuckles) you know? It just, like, forces you to, like, go right in it and, like, concentrate on the smallest, most, you know, you know, miniscule things, and, and you're there. And it's, it's kind of, it's like a bit mindfulness- a bit of mindfulness as well. But, but because you're s- you're thinking about writing, and you're thinking about the solution, or the reason, or whatever you created in your... Whatever that was, um, it's also gonna make you feel a heck of a lot better in terms of-

Gillian Berner (39:34): Hmm

Shanna Pearson (39:35): ... mood management, right?

Gillian Berner (39:37): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (39:37): Like, I do this-

Gillian Berner (39:38): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (39:38): ... with, um, I have kids, and they do a lot of things that piss me off, and so does my husband. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (39:45): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (39:46): So, like, I do this often, and it's like-

Gillian Berner (39:49): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (39:49): ... 'cause there's always a reason for what they do.

Gillian Berner (39:51): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (39:51): Even, even in children, there's a reason for what they do-

Gillian Berner (39:54): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (39:55): ... you know, and for why they said that or for what they did, or w- there's always a reason. So if I just focus on their reason, and I focus very intently, um, I'm a lot less angry and upset, and I can be-

Gillian Berner (40:07): Hmm

Shanna Pearson (40:07): ... a lot more grounded with how I react to them or respond, really.

Gillian Berner (40:11): That makes a lot of sense, and I guess that also helps remove it from being about you. Because I think there's a lot of, like, that sensitivity that can come with ADHD of, like-

Shanna Pearson (40:20): Yeah

Gillian Berner (40:20): ... everything feels really personal, and really sensitive, and really difficult. And so when you're a bit more focused on, like, the why-

Shanna Pearson (40:27): Mm-hmm

Gillian Berner (40:27): ... and hopefully maybe assuming positive intent in the other person-

Shanna Pearson (40:30): (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (40:30): ... then that helps you-

Shanna Pearson (40:31): Or just not negative. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (40:33): Just really... Yeah, exactly.

Shanna Pearson (40:34): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (40:34): Going in with a bit more neutrality, and then it also-

Shanna Pearson (40:36): Right

Gillian Berner (40:37): ... takes it away from, "Oh, my God, see? Everyone hates me."

Shanna Pearson (40:39): Right.

Gillian Berner (40:39): "I'm not loved. My kids don't care about me," and whatever it is, and it, it-

Shanna Pearson (40:43): Yeah

Gillian Berner (40:43): ... kind of removes that from the equation.

Shanna Pearson (40:45): 100%, that's exactly what it does. It takes- it makes everything neutral. Everybody has a reason w- for most- almost everyone has a reason for why they do what they do.

Gillian Berner (40:55): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (40:55): And, uh, and, and it forces us to focus on that-

Gillian Berner (40:59): Yeah, that makes a lot of sense

Shanna Pearson (41:00): ... rather than ourselves, and why everyone hates me, and why I suck, and all of the, you know-

Gillian Berner (41:04): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (41:04): ... the, the constant habitual statements we've been telling ourselves for our entire life. I think if, if I distilled all of it down, it would be just, like, all of these ways are, are how to get away from your thoughts, like, how to get out of your head. Like, you know-

Gillian Berner (41:18): Out of your head

Shanna Pearson (41:18): ... I have this whole thing about physical state changes.

Gillian Berner (41:20): Hmm.

Shanna Pearson (41:20): You know, when you're, when you're singing a song out loud, it's very difficult to be upset.

Gillian Berner (41:26): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (41:27): It's almost-

Gillian Berner (41:27): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (41:27): ... impossible. (chuckles) Almost.

Gillian Berner (41:30): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (41:30): So, like, you know, pick a, pick a song that you love and just stand up and sing it, right?

Gillian Berner (41:34): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (41:35): Like, that's like another... That's a physical state change. A physical state change could be exercising, you know, getting out of your head by getting into your body.

Gillian Berner (41:41): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (41:41): Um, it could be, you know... One of our clients, um, brought this to me, and then I started doing it with all of our clients, and it's kind of horrible, (chuckles) but fun. It's just, like, you're, like, sucking on a breath mint, and then afterwards you drink an ice cold glass of water, and it-

Gillian Berner (41:58): Oh, interesting

Shanna Pearson (41:58): ... it's like an instant switch off. It's just, like, it just-... it gets you out of that head space-

Gillian Berner (42:03): Mm

Shanna Pearson (42:03): ... even just for a minute, so that you can kind of gather yourself again.

Gillian Berner (42:07): Right. Right.

Shanna Pearson (42:08): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (42:08): Those, like, sensation kind of triggers-

Shanna Pearson (42:10): Yeah

Gillian Berner (42:10): ... that, like, bring you back. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (42:12): Right.

Gillian Berner (42:12): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (42:13): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (42:13): That's really helpful. I'm curious if, like, the inability to compartmentalize or, or the difficulty with compa- compartmentalization might be why a lot of people with ADHD struggle in, like, traditionally corporate environments. Because I see this amongst my entire ADHD friend group of, like, doing what you're told and not questioning the systems, and not being like: "Well, wait, maybe there's a different way or a better way," or seeing injustice and being quiet about it. Just, there's an inability (chuckles) to just, like, go with it if you see something clearly, and you're like: "This doesn't make sense. I can't just compartmentalize it, and put it away, and pretend it's not happening." And I- I definitely felt that i- when I was working in a corporate environment. I was like, "I fucking can't do this." So is it... Maybe that-

Shanna Pearson (42:58): Right

Gillian Berner (42:58): ... Maybe that's why. I... Because it's-

Shanna Pearson (43:00): It is why (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (43:00): ... it's a funny- Yeah. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (43:02): It is why, because you can't take it and put it in your back pocket.

Gillian Berner (43:05): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (43:06): Like, a lot of people can, and it's also why-

Gillian Berner (43:09): I think so, yeah

Shanna Pearson (43:09): ... we have a hard time- we ha- we also have a harder time in relationships for the exact same reason.

Gillian Berner (43:14): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (43:14): 'Cause issues become issues. (laughs) You know?

Gillian Berner (43:19): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (43:19): And it's like, like, little things become huge, and huge things become, like, unmanageable.

Gillian Berner (43:23): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (43:24): So it's the same kind of thing, where it's really hard just to follow in a straight line, and not question, and put all of my questions away, and I can deal with my questions later. If you have ADHD, that's almost impossible to do, because those questions are, like, s- again, like, I describe it like it's like a liquid in a container-

Gillian Berner (43:42): Mm

Shanna Pearson (43:42): ... seeping into everything. It's, like, overflowing all rationale, and, and you're sort of drowning in it.

Gillian Berner (43:48): Wow, yeah. Yeah, there's no, "I'll put this-

Shanna Pearson (43:50): (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (43:50): ... to the back of my mind till later." It's like, no, there's only front of mind. (chuckles) Like, it's always-

Shanna Pearson (43:54): There's only here now. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (43:55): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (43:56): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (43:56): That makes sense.

Shanna Pearson (43:57): So, so that's really why. It's like, if, if it's not... Which is also, I think, one of the gifts, um-

Gillian Berner (44:03): Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (44:04): Even though it's a pain in the ass, right? But we're- it's impossible for us to get stuck on something we don't like.

Gillian Berner (44:09): You... There's no sweeping it-

Shanna Pearson (44:10): Mm

Gillian Berner (44:10): ... under the rug. It is, like, it is pretty all-consuming if something's not working, so-

Shanna Pearson (44:14): Yeah

Gillian Berner (44:15): ... That's what I see.

Shanna Pearson (44:15): You're gonna talk about it. You're gonna try to deal with it somehow, or you're gonna, you know, you're gonna change it.

Gillian Berner (44:20): Yeah, and, and that's why I also, like, although there's a lot of really frustrating (chuckles) symptoms with ADHD, I also see that, like, that's usually who the change-makers are, and the people advocating for things, and the people, like, breaking out of the mold, which, which we need, so...

Shanna Pearson (44:33): Yeah. No, it's, I think it's amazing. I think there's a lot of great leadership components (chuckles) to ADHD. If only we can have someone help us with the, you know, the, the administrative stuff-

Gillian Berner (44:43): The day-to-day-

Shanna Pearson (44:43): Or like (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (44:44): ... existing. Yeah. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (44:45): Yeah, yeah. No, but it really is. There's a lot of passion. That's-

Gillian Berner (44:49): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (44:49): ... that is for sure. There's so much, like... I think that's why I love what I do so much. Because, like, all of, all of our clients, no matter who they are, no matter how loud or quiet or, you know, you know, up there they are in society or, or, like, way down here and just trying to figure it out, everybody seems very passionate. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (45:07): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (45:07): And it's just, it's gorgeous.

Gillian Berner (45:10): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (45:10): It's really... It's, like, very-

Gillian Berner (45:11): It is beautiful.

Shanna Pearson (45:12): It's, there's so much life and just, like, energy, and thank goodness for that. Like, this- that's what the world needs. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (45:20): We do.

Shanna Pearson (45:20): So-

Gillian Berner (45:20): That is exactly what we need. We, we, we don't need more complacency. That's for sure.

Shanna Pearson (45:24): No.

Gillian Berner (45:24): So (chuckles) there's-

Shanna Pearson (45:25): Right

Gillian Berner (45:25): ... there's great parts of it all.

Shanna Pearson (45:26): Which is why we need to manage it. Because, like, when you say complacency, it's like, when it, when it, when it goes unmanaged, and you feel like crap, and you blame everything on yourself, and you don't even know that it's ADHD-

Gillian Berner (45:37): Mm

Shanna Pearson (45:37): ... that's when it becomes sad and depressing, and, and we become, like, very complacent, where it's just like, "Whatever, just tell me what to do," you know?

Gillian Berner (45:44): Yeah. I think I've watched it in others and in myself. I think, like, one of the worst things for someone with ADHD is to feel checked out, because it's like-

Shanna Pearson (45:51): Right

Gillian Berner (45:52): ... it's, like, unbearable. As soon as you hit that point where you're like, "Well, the, nothing's working," I'm- I am checking out, I am tuning out.

Shanna Pearson (45:57): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (45:58): And then it's... And when I watch it happen, it's almost like a disassociative state that I see, like, some of my loved ones go into, and I'm like: Oh, you're- w- whatever's happening in front of you right now is not working, and because maybe you, you don't know how to get out of it or don't know, don't know what to do with this, you're, like, checking out.

Shanna Pearson (46:13): Yep.

Gillian Berner (46:13): And that's it.

Shanna Pearson (46:15): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (46:15): And that's a hard-

Shanna Pearson (46:15): Yeah

Gillian Berner (46:15): ... place to be. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (46:16): It really- it's an, it's a horri- you don't deserve to be there.

Gillian Berner (46:19): No.

Shanna Pearson (46:19): Nobody deserves to be there, because that's not who you are. You're not checked out, you're all there, (chuckles) and there's so much-

Gillian Berner (46:26): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (46:26): ... of you, and you're freaking awesome. It's your whole life, 'cause ADHD affects your brain, and your brain affects everything. (chuckles) You know? Like, we are our brain, technically. (chuckles) It's like, it's like everything. So, so, you know, if you suspect you might have ADHD, please figure it out, whether you do or whether you don't. And if you do, yay, because now you get to- now you know where that hole in the wall is, and you get to patch it up, and we get to start managing it tiny step by tiny step.

Gillian Berner (46:51): Yeah, and in terms of the management, I also wanna talk a bit about that, because it's, it's great if people decide to go the medication route.

Shanna Pearson (46:58): Yep.

Gillian Berner (46:58): I know amongst my, my group of friends, we've been talking a lot about this lately, and some of them have tried medication and really didn't like it, and so...

Shanna Pearson (47:06): Mm.

Gillian Berner (47:06): Or they just don't want to be on it. So for anyone who doesn't wanna pursue the medication route, what are some of the most important changes or systems they can implement to alleviate some of the, the difficult symptoms?

Shanna Pearson (47:19): In my opinion-

Gillian Berner (47:20): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (47:21): ... um, medication, the right medication can be super helpful-

Gillian Berner (47:25): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (47:25): ... at the right, at the right prescription, at the right dose. I find a lot of, um, medical professionals prescribe, like, way too high of a dose.

Gillian Berner (47:31): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (47:31): So it's what creates that zombie feeling that everyone-

Gillian Berner (47:34): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (47:34): ... complains about.

Gillian Berner (47:34): I've heard about. It's very unpleasant. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (47:37): Yeah. If you, if you're- if you've been prescribed 30 milligrams of something, and you feel like a zombie, ask your doctor to give you 10, (chuckles) you know?

Gillian Berner (47:44): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (47:44): And let's see what 10 does instead of 30 or, or whatever. Because, you know, what the medication does... So here's how you can think about it in terms of if you don't wanna take medication. What the medication does is it kind of puts blinders on you.

Gillian Berner (47:57): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (47:58): All right? So it, hence the zombie, right?

Gillian Berner (48:01): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (48:01): It's just like whoosh, (chuckles) and then-

Gillian Berner (48:03): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (48:03): ... it keeps you like this. And so it does help you focus.... it does not help you focus on the right things. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (48:11): Right.

Shanna Pearson (48:12): So, so, you know, you could be amazing at focusing on your social media feed for eight straight hours and get-

Gillian Berner (48:18): Yeah, yeah, yeah

Shanna Pearson (48:19): ... absolutely nothing done, (chuckles) right?

Gillian Berner (48:21): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (48:21): But you were focused. Um, but, you know, if you do know what you should be focused on, then it could be helpful, and if it's-

Gillian Berner (48:26): Right

Shanna Pearson (48:26): ... you know, at the right dosage. But if you think of it like that, that's what the medication does. It helps you focus. It helps you basically create, like, almost like a tunnel vision. So how do you create a tunnel vision (chuckles) in your life-

Gillian Berner (48:38): Mm

Shanna Pearson (48:38): ... without medication? Again, it's the one focus at a time.

Gillian Berner (48:45): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (48:45): That's exactly what that is. Because when I... Remember I was telling you that was the name of my company way back in the day when I first started it, I was n- I was very anti-medication, and I wanna tell you that I'm not anymore because I've seen way too many success stories. So I'm not, but I used to be. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (49:01): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (49:01): I used to be, like, back in my total, like, vegan, (chuckles) you know, like (chuckles) and, like, no medication ever, not even Tylenol. And, um, so I had to figure this out on my own.

Gillian Berner (49:13): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (49:14): And the way I did it without medication was honestly just focusing on the most min- mini, mini, mini, minuscule tasks, one focus at a time. And I would literally, like, write it out as a recipe. I would keep-

Gillian Berner (49:26): Mm

Shanna Pearson (49:26): ... no more than three tasks on my to-do list, even though I had, like, a 300 item long to-do list. I would have another page-

Gillian Berner (49:33): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (49:33): ... that only had three. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (49:34): Right.

Shanna Pearson (49:34): And so, you know, I would... And I would only focus on one at a time-

Gillian Berner (49:39): Right

Shanna Pearson (49:39): ... in steps. You have to think of it as: How am I gonna create a tunnel vision?

Gillian Berner (49:43): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (49:43): 'Cause that's what the medication does. It just, like-

Gillian Berner (49:45): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (49:46): ... makes you focus. So-

Gillian Berner (49:47): That makes sense

Shanna Pearson (49:47): ... I highly recommend one thing at a time. All of us, all of us have 50,000 things that we need to do in a day. Like, nobody who's listening or watching is any different in that way. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (49:59): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (49:59): We all have all of these categories, but the trick for, for the tunnel vision and to be able to focus is to only do one at a time-

Gillian Berner (50:08): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (50:08): ... at a time, and then the next at a time, and then the next one, one at a time. And then you will get to everything when you do it that way.

Gillian Berner (50:16): That makes sense. That makes sense. Can you also tell me-

Shanna Pearson (50:19): Yeah

Gillian Berner (50:19): ... about mood-based scheduling?

Shanna Pearson (50:22): Oh, I, I love mood-based scheduling. So it's really just, like, working with your natural circadian rhythm. For two days, (chuckles) track your high-energy times of day and your low-energy times of day, just so you know where they are, and there's usually not just one high-energy time of day. We usually go through a bunch of different, you know, ebbs and flows throughout the day. (chuckles) So maybe you're, like, oddly high energy at 8:00 a.m., and then again at, you know, 3:00 p.m., or maybe at 8:00 a.m. and again, oddly, at 9:00 p.m., (chuckles) or whatever it is. Just find those high-energy times, find your low-energy times.

Gillian Berner (50:58): Right.

Shanna Pearson (50:58): Write them down. Track it. It's not that difficult. And then when you're gonna, um... If you're able to schedule all of your things to do, try your best to schedule your most difficult, the tasks that you don't want to do, put those tasks in your highest energy time of day.

Gillian Berner (51:17): Okay. That makes sense.

Shanna Pearson (51:18): And put the easy tasks, the ones we gravitate towards that are no-brainers for us, at your lowest energy time of day.

Gillian Berner (51:27): Right.

Shanna Pearson (51:27): And the reason I have to spell it out is because a lot of people do the exact opposite.

Gillian Berner (51:32): Hmm.

Shanna Pearson (51:32): Where, like, if you're a morning person, (chuckles) you know, let's just say, 'cause a lot of us really are a morning person, but not all of us. But, like, morning people-

Gillian Berner (51:38): I wish I was. (chuckles) Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (51:40): Yeah. Um, so, like, let's say, like, let's say, you know, like-

Gillian Berner (51:42): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (51:42): ... morning people, they tend to just be scrolling through their phones in the morning-

Gillian Berner (51:46): Yeah, true

Shanna Pearson (51:46): ... for, like, an hour a day and doing absolutely nothing.

Gillian Berner (51:50): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (51:50): And that, it's, like, prime real estate time, (chuckles) like they can-

Gillian Berner (51:54): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (51:54): ... you know, where they could actually get stuff done.

Gillian Berner (51:56): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (51:56): Um, but it's really just about being aware and being on purpose, where, you know, this is your highest energy time. You're not a morning person, so maybe, like, when do you have a lot of energy during the day? Do you notice?

Gillian Berner (52:09): I'm, I'm definitely a night owl, so I find kind of between, like, 11:00 a.m. and 1:00 p.m., and then from, like, 7:00 till 10:00 p.m., I get, like, another big burst. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (52:19): Good.

Gillian Berner (52:19): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (52:19): So that's exactly... So on your calendar, (chuckles) you know, you would-

Gillian Berner (52:23): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (52:23): Whatever those things are, is there anything that you've been putting off that you-

Gillian Berner (52:27): Oh, (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (52:27): ... haven't been able to do?

Gillian Berner (52:29): Everything I've been putting off.

Shanna Pearson (52:29): Is there, like, one thing maybe? (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (52:31): There's so many things I wanna throw up. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (52:35): Okay, good. So not good-

Gillian Berner (52:36): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (52:36): ... but let, like, whatever, like, just what are... What's one that you don't mind saying out loud?

Gillian Berner (52:42): I mean, my mortgage renewal is up at the end of the month, and I have been putting off figuring it out. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (52:46): Okay. Well, mortgage renewal is on paper, and you don't need to be with anybody in person, right?

Gillian Berner (52:51): Exactly.

Shanna Pearson (52:52): Like, you might just do a couple calls, but-

Gillian Berner (52:53): But I just... I'm like, it's not that... It's really not that hard, and to your point, it's not that big of a lift, and I just every week paste it to my new to-do list and paste it again and again, and I keep not doing it, and I'm like, "I've gotta, I've gotta do this."

Shanna Pearson (53:07): Well, what's-

Gillian Berner (53:07): So then it's-

Shanna Pearson (53:07): ... gonna happen if you don't do it, Gillian?

Gillian Berner (53:09): Oh, well, I'm gonna wait till the last minute-

Shanna Pearson (53:12): (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (53:12): ... and then I'm gonna pull-

Shanna Pearson (53:13): Yeah

Gillian Berner (53:13): ... like, an all-nighter and get it done before the deadline, 'cause that's, that's what-

Shanna Pearson (53:17): Right

Gillian Berner (53:17): ... I usually do. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (53:19): Okay. Okay, and then, and then how is that gonna... Is, is, um, if that's okay for you, then, then great.

Gillian Berner (53:24): I've made it work, but it would just be... It would be great to probably, like, get ahead of some of these things and not then, like, compromise my sleep and, like, just be in a kind of chaotic place the day before the deadline. So it's, yeah, it's something I would like to get done in advance and not in, like, the final hour.

Shanna Pearson (53:40): Okay.

Gillian Berner (53:40): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (53:40): So can I just play with you for, like, one sec?

Gillian Berner (53:43): Sure. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (53:44): Okay, good. Uh, do you have your computer, like-

Gillian Berner (53:45): I'm feeling very exposed. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (53:49): (chuckles) Yeah. Listen, you asked me to be here. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (53:51): I know, I know.

Shanna Pearson (53:51): So-

Gillian Berner (53:52): No, I appreciate you. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (53:53): If there's, like, one- is there something on your computer that you can, like... Is there, like, a tab or the mortgage renewal forms, have you got them anywhere, anywhere?

Gillian Berner (54:03): Y- yeah.

Shanna Pearson (54:03): Or do you need to find them?

Gillian Berner (54:05): No, (chuckles) I've, I've opened them up, and I've looked at them. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (54:08): ... are they on your computer right now?

Gillian Berner (54:09): They're in my email. Yeah, if I open, I can, I can access them from my email.

Shanna Pearson (54:13): Well, no, access them from your email now.

Gillian Berner (54:15): Oh, you want me to do it right now? Stop. (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (54:16): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (54:17): No.

Shanna Pearson (54:17): This is called on-the-spot implementation.

Gillian Berner (54:19): Oh, my God, no. (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (54:20): I just want you to open the document. That's it.

Gillian Berner (54:24): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (54:24): I'm not gonna ask you to fill out any paperwork right now-

Gillian Berner (54:26): Okay

Shanna Pearson (54:26): ... on this podcast.

Gillian Berner (54:27): Okay. (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (54:27): But I do want you to... I do want you to go to the email, 'cause that-

Gillian Berner (54:31): Okay

Shanna Pearson (54:31): ... that's something where if something's in your email and you, and you need to find it eventually, you just won't.

Gillian Berner (54:38): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (54:38): And it's just gonna stay in your email.

Gillian Berner (54:40): That's true.

Shanna Pearson (54:40): So can you just open the email with, with me on this podcast right now? (laughing)

Gillian Berner (54:43): Okay. I'm gonna do it on my phone, um-

Shanna Pearson (54:46): Okay

Gillian Berner (54:46): ... so that I don't, don't fuck with my (chuckles) our connection, but okay.

Shanna Pearson (54:49): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Gillian Berner (54:50): I'll open it. Everyone listening is like, "Why does this girl have a podcast on adulting?" (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (54:56): (laughing) I think you're on it, honestly, like, exactly like 99% of all adults (laughing) who are-

Gillian Berner (55:03): I think so, too. I think so, too.

Shanna Pearson (55:03): It's not- this is not unusual. (laughing)

Gillian Berner (55:06): (laughing) I think so, too. Okay. All right, I have it open.

Shanna Pearson (55:10): You have it open?

Gillian Berner (55:11): I have it open.

Shanna Pearson (55:11): Okay, look at it.

Gillian Berner (55:12): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (55:12): How does that feel for you? Like, does it look okay? Is this like... Is this, like, terrifying for you, or is it just like a thing?

Gillian Berner (55:18): It's like, it's a bit anxiety-inducing. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (55:23): Yeah?

Gillian Berner (55:23): It feels a bit stressful. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (55:24): Okay, what's this- what's the- what's the stressful part about this?

Gillian Berner (55:27): I think, like, that there's a decision I have to make, and I don't feel informed.

Shanna Pearson (55:32): Good!

Gillian Berner (55:32): Yeah, it's a decision.

Shanna Pearson (55:32): No, that's really good. That's good.

Gillian Berner (55:34): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (55:34): It's usually that.

Gillian Berner (55:35): Okay, oh, good. Great.

Shanna Pearson (55:36): Everybody should hear that. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (55:38): Oh, wow.

Shanna Pearson (55:38): Everyone should hear that. When we feel like f- when we're afraid of something and we're not sure what it is, it's usually because of a decision that we have to make.

Gillian Berner (55:45): Hmm.

Shanna Pearson (55:46): And we don't even necessarily know that that's what it is, but it's like-

Gillian Berner (55:48): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (55:49): ... do I do it this way, or do I do it that way? Do I do it... You know, the, uh, what are the, what are the two options for mortgages in Canada?

Gillian Berner (55:56): Yeah, do I do fixed or do I do variable?

Shanna Pearson (55:58): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gillian Berner (55:58): And do I-

Shanna Pearson (55:59): Exactly. (laughing)

Gillian Berner (56:00): ... like one year or three year or five year? Like, yeah, it's... I feel i- I just don't actually know because I feel like my life is changing, and I d- I don't... Now I feel, like, rushed into an answer-

Shanna Pearson (56:09): Well, if you did fixed, if you did fixed, how would you feel about yourself?

Gillian Berner (56:13): I th- I, like, I think it's probably all fine. (laughing) I think it's all fine.

Shanna Pearson (56:17): If you did variable, how would you feel about yourself?

Gillian Berner (56:21): I'd feel fi- I... Well, if, if the markets, like, drastically went up, which I, I don't think they will right now, but they did a few years ago, and I think a lot of my friends with (chuckles) with variable mortgages were like, "Oh, shit."

Shanna Pearson (56:31): Mm.

Gillian Berner (56:31): But that's not a reflection on them. It's, you know, it's they didn't-

Shanna Pearson (56:35): So listen to what you're saying.

Gillian Berner (56:37): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (56:37): It's like this and that. I think you wanna do fixed. Just saying. (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (56:40): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (56:40): Maybe.

Gillian Berner (56:41): Yeah, I think so.

Shanna Pearson (56:41): Maybe for right now.

Gillian Berner (56:42): I'm pretty risk-averse-

Shanna Pearson (56:43): You might wanna think about it

Gillian Berner (56:43): ... with this kind of thing anyways. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (56:45): Okay, but, I mean, just as an example, so, so what actually ended up happening here, whatever you end up deciding to do, and you should totally email me and let me know what you do. (laughing) But, like, you should... (laughing) Yeah. Just, like, you had this decision. You had this thing you've been putting off forever.

Gillian Berner (56:58): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (56:59): Well, how long have you been putting this off?

Gillian Berner (57:01): Oh, I got the first email probably in, like, early August.

Shanna Pearson (57:05): Oh, my God. Okay, that's... (laughing) I wasn't expecting you to say that. (laughing)

Gillian Berner (57:09): Really? It's been like three months. (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (57:11): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (57:12): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (57:13): Okay, okay, okay. Okay, but now you've looked at it, right?

Gillian Berner (57:16): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (57:16): And we talked about-

Gillian Berner (57:17): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (57:17): ... whatever, you know, is anxiety-producing for you.

Gillian Berner (57:20): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (57:20): Right? So there's one more thing-

Gillian Berner (57:21): Was that w- (chuckles) Were you expecting-

Shanna Pearson (57:23): There's one-

Gillian Berner (57:23): ... it to be better or worse? (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (57:25): I was expecting you to say, "I've had this, like, for, for about three weeks," (laughing) but it was, like, three months.

Gillian Berner (57:30): That's so funny.

Shanna Pearson (57:31): But that's fine.

Gillian Berner (57:31): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (57:31): It's fine. It doesn't even matter-

Gillian Berner (57:32): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (57:32): ... 'cause it's not due yet, right?

Gillian Berner (57:34): It's not.

Shanna Pearson (57:34): But what you're gonna do-

Gillian Berner (57:35): Exactly

Shanna Pearson (57:35): ... but just for, just for, just for kicks-

Gillian Berner (57:38): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (57:38): ... because I want you to prove to yourself that small, that small steps are doable, even for you, and especially for you-

Gillian Berner (57:44): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (57:44): ... so that all of your listeners, you know, in the future will, will know that it's possible for them also.

Gillian Berner (57:50): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (57:51): At your high-energy time of day, which I think you said is between 7:00 and 11:00-

Gillian Berner (57:55): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (57:56): ... do you think it's possible for you today to, to take a stab at, at this mortgage renewal and just to start filling it out today?

Gillian Berner (58:03): I think so. I'm pretty, like, I'm pretty accountability-driven in terms of, like, my commitments to others. So-

Shanna Pearson (58:11): Okay

Gillian Berner (58:11): ... if I am making this commitment to you, I'm more likely than if it's just me. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (58:15): Okay, good, 'cause you also just made that you can make the commitment to all of your listeners. (laughing)

Gillian Berner (58:20): Okay. Doing it for you. (laughing) Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (58:23): So-

Gillian Berner (58:23): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (58:24): ... yeah, so that's, that's really it, right? So-

Gillian Berner (58:26): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (58:26): ... I had you open it. Like, so when you're talking about, you know, mood and, like, when to do things and the best time of day to do things, this is something you've been putting off for three months. Let's find the time of day that you're not gonna be dragging your, your butt, right?

Gillian Berner (58:37): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (58:37): So that would be tonight, when-

Gillian Berner (58:39): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (58:39): ... in your second wind. You're gonna set an alarm. Do it right now while we're on this podcast-

Gillian Berner (58:43): Okay

Shanna Pearson (58:43): ... at 7:00 o'clock, and you're gonna keep pressing, like, repeat or snooze or whatever-

Gillian Berner (58:47): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (58:47): ... if you don't do it at 7:15. But you do it today, and you just get started on it. Because once you get started on the things that you've been procrastinating on, the momentum takes over.

Gillian Berner (58:56): That's true. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (58:57): Starting is everything. So if you were my, if you were my client, we would be doing this together right now.

Gillian Berner (59:04): Right. Right.

Shanna Pearson (59:05): Like-

Gillian Berner (59:05): Yeah, the starting is the worst part

Shanna Pearson (59:06): ... you'd be opening the form-

Gillian Berner (59:06): It's true

Shanna Pearson (59:06): ... and we would be doing it together, and then after the session-

Gillian Berner (59:09): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (59:09): ... we would be... You know, you'd continue doing it.

Gillian Berner (59:11): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (59:11): But, but you're gonna do this on your own now because you've set the alarm, and you're doing it at a time of day that works for you.

Gillian Berner (59:16): Yeah. That's why we-

Shanna Pearson (59:17): But that's why we... It's really good for us to go with our mood, 'cause if I told you to do this first thing tomorrow morning, you wouldn't.

Gillian Berner (59:22): Never. (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (59:22): (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (59:23): If you're like, "Wake up at 8:00 AM," I'm like, "I'd rather throw up." No.

Shanna Pearson (59:27): Right.

Gillian Berner (59:27): So that's a lot of sense.

Shanna Pearson (59:28): So that's, that's just, like, making it winnable. Like, you have to just make this winnable. And I just want you to start on it. I'm not telling you to do the whole thing.

Gillian Berner (59:35): Great.

Shanna Pearson (59:35): So even if I just said, like, "Do, like, spend five minutes on it at some point today, you know, before 8:00 PM or before 9:00 PM, spend five minutes on it," that's doable for you.

Gillian Berner (59:48): Is this how you would coach people with your... I was reading in your book, you have, like, the action first behavior way of coaching.

Shanna Pearson (59:54): Yeah.

Gillian Berner (59:54): So instead of trying to convince me to think or believe it's not that bad or-

Shanna Pearson (59:59): That's such bullshit

Gillian Berner (1:00:00): it's just like taking the action, and then can you, like, can you walk, walk people through why the action first approach matters-

Shanna Pearson (1:00:06): Yes

Gillian Berner (1:00:07): ... instead of this thought first?

Shanna Pearson (1:00:09): It's re- it's really simple, because our thoughts are, are all-encompassing, nonstop, and we are constantly second-guessing our own thoughts, because that's what's stimulating for us.

Gillian Berner (1:00:18): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (1:00:18): So a person with ADHD, you know, like, that whole concept of, you know, change your beliefs, and change your thoughts, and it'll eventually change your actions and your results, it doesn't work-

Gillian Berner (1:00:29): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (1:00:29): ... nearly (chuckles) as easily-

Gillian Berner (1:00:31): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (1:00:31): ... or as well as-

Gillian Berner (1:00:32): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (1:00:32): ... just doing something. Because when you do something, you don't have to think about it.

Gillian Berner (1:00:37): Right.

Shanna Pearson (1:00:38): And so again, it's getting out of your head.

Gillian Berner (1:00:41): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:00:42): And getting-

Gillian Berner (1:00:42): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (1:00:42): ... into an action. And that is, and I promise, anybody who's, like, anyone can try to prove me wrong, and they can't. (chuckles) I've been doing this for way too long and with way too many people. If you do it this way, you will get your stuff done. You just will. Stop thinking about the overthinking, overthinking, overthinking, 'cause that's our trap.

Gillian Berner (1:01:01): Right.

Shanna Pearson (1:01:01): That's our trap, and it's, like, a brilliant form of stimulus for ADHDers.

Gillian Berner (1:01:05): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (1:01:05): One teeny, tiny, little action at a time, without overthinking. Eventually, guess what? That tiny... You know, you opened your mortgage renewal thing. You actually spent five minutes on it. Tomorrow, you're gonna do the same thing. It's gonna get done in a couple of days versus three months of sitting there.

Gillian Berner (1:01:21): Thinking about it-

Shanna Pearson (1:01:21): How do you-

Gillian Berner (1:01:21): ... and not doing it. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (1:01:23): How do you think your thoughts are going to change slightly as a result of you doing that?

Gillian Berner (1:01:29): Yeah, by taking the action, I'll be like, "That really wasn't that bad." And like, y- you, you actually see you're able to do these things, and they're not these crazy mountains to climb necessarily. Or that even if it was hard, that you're capable of doing it, and-

Shanna Pearson (1:01:43): Right

Gillian Berner (1:01:43): ... rather than trying to, like, talk myself into it, which-

Shanna Pearson (1:01:47): Yeah

Gillian Berner (1:01:47): ... my brain can do a lot.

Shanna Pearson (1:01:47): We don't like to be talked into things.

Gillian Berner (1:01:49): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:01:49): So, like (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (1:01:50): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (1:01:50): ... you know?

Gillian Berner (1:01:51): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:01:51): So that, that's really it. It's, it's so basic. It's so basic.

Gillian Berner (1:01:54): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:01:54): There's nothing, like, out of touch here. Everyone understands, like, how this works, because you can understand how it would work in, in your life. Keep it simple, tiny little steps. Be in action, and your thoughts and your belie- and your results are gonna start to change.

Gillian Berner (1:02:07): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:07): You're gonna have all of these things done. You're gonna be feeling a heck of a lot better about yourself. You're gonna be showing up on time. People are gonna notice. It just, it just follows exactly like that.

Gillian Berner (1:02:18): Yeah. Okay, we're doing it. Baby steps, inch by inch-

Shanna Pearson (1:02:20): Yes, you are!

Gillian Berner (1:02:20): We're doing it. (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (1:02:21): (laughing) This is fun.

Gillian Berner (1:02:22): Thank you so much. This was really fun. I really appreciate, as, like, uncomfortable as it was in moments-

Shanna Pearson (1:02:28): (chuckles)

Gillian Berner (1:02:28): ... that you went, like, that you dove into it with me, 'cause it is really helpful. I think we, we hear about things in theory, but when you actually get to experience them in practice, it really resonates and hits. So I appreciate you, like, giving the time and attention to do this. This was really fun.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:43): Oh, good. Yay. I w- I had fun, too. (chuckles) I loved it.

Gillian Berner (1:02:46): Thank you so much, Shanna.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:47): Thank you, Joanne.

Gillian Berner (1:02:47): Please tell everybody where they can get your book, where they can find you online-

Shanna Pearson (1:02:52): Oh

Gillian Berner (1:02:52): ... where they can g- get your coaching services-

Shanna Pearson (1:02:54): Sure

Gillian Berner (1:02:54): ... all of it.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:54): Um, just go to adhdcoaching.com, and that's where I am. The book is there, and book, the book is available anywhere books are sold. And, um, and I am on adhdcoaching.com. (upbeat music)

Transcribed from the episode audio.