Dopamine, Overthinking, and Why ADHD Symptoms Spike in Perimenopause
Podcast · Sparking Wholeness · Episode 339
Hosted by Erin Kerry · Guest: Shanna Pearson · · 46 min listen
Sparking Wholeness
Dopamine, Overthinking, and Why ADHD Symptoms Spike in Perimenopause
On episode 339 of Sparking Wholeness, Erin Kerry talks with Shanna Pearson, founder of Expert ADHD Coaching and author of Invisible ADHD, about what ADHD looks like in women: a brain that keeps looking for stimulus, hyperactivity that mostly stays inside the head, and a first diagnosis that is often depression. Shanna explains why perimenopause can make it so much harder, since estrogen and dopamine fall together in a brain that already has less dopamine to work with.
Erin talks about her own restless, noisy mind along the way, and near the end Shanna coaches her through the laundry that keeps piling up at home.
In this episode
- Shanna’s own story: a childhood of “Why can’t I just…?”, a misdiagnosis of depression, antidepressants that made her feel worse, and, finally, an ADHD diagnosis
- Hyperactivity on the inside: indecision and second-guessing, and why an ADHD brain is drawn to drama and even picks fights when things are calm for too long
- What to look at before seeking a diagnosis, how lower estrogen drags dopamine down in perimenopause, and why hormone patches alone don’t settle the emotional swings
- Overthinking and catastrophizing as mental gymnastics, trading doom scrolling for positive stimulus like exercise, and keeping the “so that I can” in mind for boring jobs like email
- Doing your hardest tasks at your best time of day, how the timing of ADHD medication affects sleep, and moving bedtime earlier in small steps
- Shanna coaching Erin through the laundry: a set time for it, help from the kids, small actions that take back control, and clients sending their coach proof
Episode links
- Apple Podcasts and Spotify, where it’s listed as episode 339, “Invisible ADHD in Women: Dopamine, Overthinking, and Why Symptoms Spike in Perimenopause”
Transcript
This transcript follows the audio episode above. Times are minutes and seconds into it. The episode opens with Erin’s message about her own book and website, then her introduction of Shanna.
Erin Kerry (0:00): (upbeat music) You are listening to Sparking Wholeness with Erin Kerry, where we talk about all things related to nutrition for mind, body, and soul. Are you ready? Let's do this. (upbeat music) Hey, everybody. Erin here, and I am so excited to share with you that my book, Live Beyond Your Label: A Holistic Approach to Breaking Old Patterns and Rediscovering a Healthier You in Mind, Body, and Spirit, is now available wherever books are sold. Guys, I'm so excited to put this book out there in the world. This is the book I wish I had when I was struggling with my mental health as a young adult, stuffing down feelings and burying trauma in order to survive. This book blends psychology, science, scripture, and my own personal experience living with the labels of PTSD, depression, and bipolar disorder.
(0:54) I hope this book helps you as readers see that you are so much more than a cluster of symptoms on a DSM checklist. I hope that you will feel seen, heard, and validated in these pages. Every single chapter is packed with helpful tools and ends with a mind/body activity to tune into your unique body's needs. Go to my website, erinbkerry.com, and check it out there. While you're there, you might as well sign up for my emails because I send out all sorts of free stuff every single month, whether that's meal prepping tips or free recipes or extra coaching tools to help you get through your day-to-day. I have tried to only email once a month because I know your time is valuable, and I really hate email overload myself.
(1:36) Go ahead, sign up for that. All right. Let's get back to the show. Welcome to Sparking Wholeness today. I am sitting down with Shanna Pearson. She is founder and director of Expert ADHD Coaching, the world's largest one-on-one ADHD coaching company, which has successfully administered nearly 500,000 coaching sessions for tens of thousands of clients, including executives at Google, Apple, Yale School of Medicine, Disney, Meta, SpaceX, and many more. Debilitating ADHD sent Shanna on a downward spiral, with near-death experiences to boot, for over 30 years, before she had the great fortune of a psychiatrist overhearing her and getting her diagnosed as the poster child for extreme ADHD. Shanna has a unique vantage point as a woman who struggled with ADHD without realizing it for most of her life.
(2:23) I know listeners are going to relate to that. A champion who overcame it, and a coach with decades of experience and thousands of success stories. Her newest book, her new book that was released last fall, is called Invisible ADHD: Proven Mood and Life Management for Smart Yet Scattered Women. It has a foreword by Dr. Daniel Amen. It's a groundbreaking results-driven approach to managing ADHD, with over 100 proven tools uniquely tailored for the remarkable ADHD brain, including never-before-published strategies and solutions that have transformed thousands of lives for over two decades. I'm so excited about this. Welcome to the show.
Shanna Pearson (2:57): (laughs) Thanks, Erin. You did that so well. You didn't trip on, on any words whatsoever.
Erin Kerry (3:01): Oh, I think-
Shanna Pearson (3:02): It's great
Erin Kerry (3:02): ... I think I did a couple times, but, um-
Shanna Pearson (3:04): Oh, no. I didn't hear it. That was amazing.
Erin Kerry (3:05): But I hope my excitement was clear-
Shanna Pearson (3:07): Oh. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (3:07): ... because I love, I love talking about this. I'd love to hear just a little bit about your own... I mean, I love that line, the poster child for extreme ADHD. Let's hear a little bit about your personal background and how you discovered you had ADHD and how that frames your work.
Shanna Pearson (3:22): Um, I h- I had no idea I had ADHD, obviously, as most women our age, um, can, can relate to, that I... It was basically just, uh, a childhood and adolescence of feeling like something was very different about me.
Erin Kerry (3:38): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (3:38): Um, not in a good way. Something is wrong.
Erin Kerry (3:41): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (3:41): "Why can't I just...?" (laughs) was, like, the theme of my life. And, um, you know, everything was a struggle. Like, everything. You know, you put your life into categories. It's like, you know, school and relationships and family life, and it was all difficult and not working. And, um, I just felt like I was constantly racing to find out what the heck was going on and, you know, why I couldn't do things the way other people could do them and why nothing seemed to work for me. But, um, that just went on and on and on until, you know, a lot of, uh, a very messy 20s and messy, you know, very early 30s, until finally, uh, one of the messes (laughs) resulted in me seeking and having to get a diagnosis for something, and they actually...
(4:33) The doctor at the time initially diagnosed me with depression.
Erin Kerry (4:38): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (4:38): Which I later found out is a very common experience for women because depression, um, when you look at the scales and the, the assessment tools, the, the symptoms of having a clinical depression are v- very much overlapping with the symptoms for having ADHD in women. And so I was, I was misdiagnosed with depression. I was put on antidepressants. They, uh, they actually made me feel more depressed. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (5:08): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (5:08): And, um, and it just got worse. It felt worse. Like, now I'm, I'm going to the doctor. I'm doing exactly what the doctor says. I feel like crap. Nothing is working out. Now I feel even worse than I did before. I can't control my moods. I can't control anything. Um, and then, you know, eventually, thankfully, I received a diagnosis for ADHD, and that was just like... A lo- I think a lot of us say that, like, everything made sense.
Erin Kerry (5:31): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (5:31): Everything made sense. For, for women, when we're diagnosed with ADHD, a lot of times we're like, you know, "What? (laughs) This is, like, a kid's thing. This is, like, a hyperactivity thing."
Erin Kerry (5:43): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (5:43): "This is something, you know, that young, young boys had in school." But it's, it's just not. It's just not. It's, you know, a brain that constantly seeks stimulus.
Erin Kerry (5:52): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (5:52): And so when we look at it like that, a brain that constantly seeks stimulus, you know, boys do it this way and women do it differently.
Erin Kerry (6:01): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (6:01): And so, you know, then everything really did make sense, and, uh, I was able to learn how to slowly, slowly but surely manage it.
Erin Kerry (6:08): Yeah, and when dopamine is low, it feels like depression. It is depression. (laughs) It's like complete-
Shanna Pearson (6:13): Yeah
Erin Kerry (6:13): ... apathy shut down. It can show up that way.
Shanna Pearson (6:15): Yeah. It's a mess. It's real- it's, it's apathy, it's hopelessness.
Erin Kerry (6:19): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (6:19): It's nothing is working, and why, why bother?
Erin Kerry (6:24): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (6:25): You know? Because everything I try falls apart.
Erin Kerry (6:28): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (6:28): And that's incredibly discouraging and depressing. You know?
Erin Kerry (6:32): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (6:33): It's, it's not, uh, it's not just, like, something that you can, you know, find yourself out of on social media.
Erin Kerry (6:39): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (6:39): It's, it's a-
Erin Kerry (6:40): Oh, right
Shanna Pearson (6:40): ... it's very real. It's very deep. Um, a- also women with ADHD tend to be a lot more reactive and a lot more sensitive. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (6:54): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (6:54): And I'm sure this makes sense to anybody listening who also has ADHD or knows someone who does, where, you know, the, the worse you feel, the more, the more people are, like, careful around you.
Erin Kerry (7:06): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (7:07): And they're not... Even those other people that care about you are not connecting with you the way they used to, and you become very sensitive to that too.
Erin Kerry (7:15): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (7:15): So then you feel rejected (laughs) by the people that you, that you've been counting on, the people that you've felt close to your whole life. And now they don't even want anything to do with you, or they don't even understand you. And it just gets... Everything just, like-
Erin Kerry (7:29): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (7:29): ... you know, it just goes, like, bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until, you know, until we can figure out what it is for us that we need to change, what we need to do differently.
Erin Kerry (7:39): Yeah. I mean, I did not understand what ADHD really was until recent years because of something you said. You, you mentioned that people associate it with the hyperactivity, you know, that little boys have in school. They can't sit still. They're, you know, getting up, getting down, like that kind of... And I was a teacher. I was in public education for 13 years, or sorry, 11 years. I added two years there. (laughs) I was in public education for 11 years. Felt like 13. Um, and I still don't think I understood, not how it manifests in women, for sure. I could see. Like, there were boys that I had in my classes, very much I could see the ADHD.
(8:14) For girls, like you said, it shows up differently, and that hyperactivity isn't always outward. It can be in our brains, right? Oh, you're muted somehow. There you go.
Shanna Pearson (8:27): That's so weird. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (8:28): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (8:28): That just, like, happened.
Erin Kerry (8:29): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (8:29): Um, it often is.
Erin Kerry (8:32): So-
Shanna Pearson (8:32): It's often in our, in our head. It's not... It's a hyperactivity is almost always, for women, internalized.
Erin Kerry (8:39): Okay. Interesting.
Shanna Pearson (8:40): It's not... I mean, a lot of us are, you know, physically hyperactive-
Erin Kerry (8:44): Mm
Shanna Pearson (8:44): ... as well, but even those of us who are physically hyperactive are also mentally hyperactive.
Erin Kerry (8:49): Mm. (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (8:50): And, uh, and those who are not physically (laughs) hyperactive are mentally hyperactive.
Erin Kerry (8:55): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (8:55): Just constant creation of, you know, even just the, the unconscious, uh, habit of being completely indecisive.
Erin Kerry (9:05): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (9:05): And always... You know, you don't think of that as, you know, a way-
Erin Kerry (9:09): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (9:09): ... to engage your brain, but to be sitting on the fence in every area of your life.
Erin Kerry (9:13): (laughs) Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (9:14): Not sure what to do. Like, do I do this or do I do that?
Erin Kerry (9:16): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (9:16): But if I do that, then I won't be able to do this. And if I do this-
Erin Kerry (9:19): Yep
Shanna Pearson (9:19): ... and how will that work out? And then, and then you make a decision, and then you're like, "Okay, this is great." All of a sudden everything becomes peaceful inside-
Erin Kerry (9:29): Mm
Shanna Pearson (9:30): ... which is very unnatural and uncomfortable for an ADHD brain that's constantly seeking stimulus.
Erin Kerry (9:36): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (9:37): But what do we do? We second-guess our decision (laughs) and now we have to go back. But maybe it should be like... You know, that's why we're always second-guessing ourselves. Um, you know, another, you know, the, the drama queens, right?
Erin Kerry (9:50): Mm. Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (9:50): A lot of the, a lot of the women that are constantly getting into stuff (laughs) and constantly have, like, crazy things happening or just, you know, big things happening, a lot of those women, it turns out, you know, la- later we'll find out, uh, they, they have ADHD. And they're not attracting these situations, but they're certainly noticing them and highlighting them and bringing... you know, thereby, you know, bringing themselves into it because it's engaging.
Erin Kerry (10:18): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (10:19): It's engaging.
Erin Kerry (10:19): It is that stimulus. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (10:20): Yep.
Erin Kerry (10:20): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (10:21): It's engaging. It just is. It could be a very negative engagement, but it's engaging.
Erin Kerry (10:26): Still there. Yeah, I mean, I see that in my... It's, it's so much more obvious for me to see it in, like, my kids, right?
Shanna Pearson (10:31): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (10:31): Like, I see it in one of my kids in particular. I'm like, "Why are you always picking fights with your brother? Oh, you're, you're looking for that dopamine. Like, you've run out. (laughs) You need something-
Shanna Pearson (10:39): Yeah
Erin Kerry (10:39): ... so you're picking fights."
Shanna Pearson (10:40): That's interesting.
Erin Kerry (10:41): And my neurotypical kid does not do that.
Shanna Pearson (10:43): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (10:43): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (10:43): They just don't do it.
Erin Kerry (10:44): Yeah. (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (10:44): So that's interesting. It's the same thing with, um, in marriages. The same thing will happen.
Erin Kerry (10:48): Oh, I bet.
Shanna Pearson (10:48): Like, you know, the relationship is, like, good. (laughs) But if it's too good for too long, we have to jack it up a notch-
Erin Kerry (10:55): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (10:55): ... by, you know, picking fights-
Erin Kerry (10:56): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (10:56): ... starting up, complaining about something, and just, like, you know-
Erin Kerry (10:59): Mm
Shanna Pearson (10:59): ... "Why did you do that when you could've done this?" And yeah, people, that's constantly happening.
Erin Kerry (11:04): It's fascinating. And so, and right now we are seeing this, like, explosion of self-diagnosis, right? And a lot of it is driven by, of course, TikTok, Instagram, all that. And some of it, like, again, for me, I had no... I did not have accurate, I would say. I had awareness, not accurate awareness in a lot of cases, so some of that can be good. But what should somebody do if they suspect, especially a woman in midlife and when there's, we've got the hormone factor, we've got a lot of different things happening at once. Should they go seek out a diagnosis? Would that be the first step?
Shanna Pearson (11:36): I think if you, if you feel that you may have ADHD, I want you to think about, you know, how these symptoms have been in your life until, you know, since the time you can remember. If you've had a pretty, you know, even-keel life and nothing like this has ever shown up before, and, you know, it really is brand new, then it's unlikely to be ADHD. Um, if you feel like all of these symptoms have been there-
Erin Kerry (12:10): Mm
Shanna Pearson (12:10): ... just on a different level, (laughs) maybe a lighter level than if you're in perimenopause or, you know, past menopause- ... then, uh, then you very well may have ADHD, and you've had it your entire life. That's the thing about ADHD, is that we're born with it. It's not something we get, (laughs) you know-
Erin Kerry (12:27): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (12:27): ... in, in perimenopause. It's something that definitely shows itself in perimenopause because we have even less dopamine. (laughs) And so now it's like-
Erin Kerry (12:35): Mm
Shanna Pearson (12:35): ... everything is, like, ADHD on steroids.
Erin Kerry (12:37): Totally. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (12:37): But, but you can always, you know, any... If you take one person and you talk to them about their symptoms, and you can talk to them about, you know, how has it been like that, you know, whether you're talking about, you know, an inability to regulate emotions, like, really an inability-
Erin Kerry (12:54): Mm
Shanna Pearson (12:55): ... um, whether you're talking about, you know, impulsive, you know, impulsivity or rage that just, like, shows itself-
Erin Kerry (13:00): Mm
Shanna Pearson (13:00): ... randomly or... You know, you can find these things throughout their entire life.
Erin Kerry (13:05): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (13:05): If that's the case, definitely seek out a diagnosis because that would be fantastic if you actually know if you have ADHD, then you know what to start working on.
Erin Kerry (13:18): Yeah. It's great information to support yourself. Like, if you know-
Shanna Pearson (13:22): That's it
Erin Kerry (13:22): ... it's good information.
Shanna Pearson (13:22): Yeah, if you know. If you don't know, it's like me being misdiagnosed with depression.
Erin Kerry (13:26): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (13:26): You know, I could've been doing lots of things to help me with my depression that I never had.
Erin Kerry (13:30): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (13:30): (laughs) Right?
Erin Kerry (13:31): Oh, for sure.
Shanna Pearson (13:31): Like, and that doesn't really help. It's not gonna help my ADHD.
Erin Kerry (13:33): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (13:33): It's not gonna help my brain. It's not gonna help how I do everything.
Erin Kerry (13:37): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (13:37): Because ADHD affects... If anything that affects your brain affects every area of your life.
Erin Kerry (13:42): It really does, especially as you mentioned. So I, I wanna talk about how does perimenopause play a role in all this. Is this the reason why so many women are all of a sudden g- getting diagnosed in their 40s? Because-
Shanna Pearson (13:52): I believe so. I believe so because it's really dramatic. It's, you know, in perimenopause, obviously, you know, our estrogen lowers. That's... Everybody knows that. So what a lot of people don't know is that people who have ADHD are born with a brain that has less dopamine available to it. So we don't know yet (laughs) whether it's because we create less dopamine or we have less dopamine.
Erin Kerry (14:19): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (14:19): We just don't have enough dopamine getting into the areas of our brain that need it, so less dopamine. Now you add perimenopause into the mix, and you have lower estrogen. But what we need to understand is that estrogen is... You know, estrogen and dopamine are, are connected.
Erin Kerry (14:35): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (14:35): And when estrogen goes down, dopamine goes down. So if you have ADHD, you already have less dopamine. Now you're going through perimenopause and your estrogen is going down, your dopamine, like, goes way down, like below Earth. (laughs) And so-
Erin Kerry (14:52): Mm
Shanna Pearson (14:52): ... it's just, like, at the lowest, lowest level. Like, you're in... You are not in good shape. And your neurotypical friends who are also going through hormonal changes, um, their dopamine levels have also gone down, but it's almost like their dopamine levels have now hit the level that you've always had.
Erin Kerry (15:10): (laughs) Right. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (15:12): (laughs) So I feel like regular perimenopause for neurotypical women is kind of like ADH- it feels a lot like regular ADHD.
Erin Kerry (15:19): Yeah. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (15:19): It really does. But ADHD (laughs) in perimenopause, when it's even, you know, less dopamine even than the lo- lower dopamine we already have, is just, like... It's, it's a very, it's a very chaotic, painful-
Erin Kerry (15:34): Mm
Shanna Pearson (15:34): ... disruptive place to be in your life.
Erin Kerry (15:37): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (15:38): It's not easy.
Erin Kerry (15:38): So how can this show up? How is it making sympt- 'cause we already know perimenopause is challenging enough. And so how is that, that lack of dopamine that you maybe didn't even have before, h- how (laughs) is that showing up in symptoms for women?
Shanna Pearson (15:50): It really shows up most strongly with emotions and emotion, um, dysregulation.
Erin Kerry (15:57): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (15:57): I think, uh, women with ADHD, when we're going through perimenopause, the, the amount of times I hear, you know, uncontrollable sadness, uncontrollable rage, um, yelling things out there, and I... And this happens with the neurotypical population but not nearly as often or to the degree. You know, like, saying things impulsively to their family members that they would never, (laughs) you know, ever wanna m- want to say to them. Um, it just really, it's like take the impulsivity and the, and the, you know, no filter (laughs) and-
Erin Kerry (16:36): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (16:37): ... severe sensitivity, and times it by 100, and that is an ADHD woman going through perimenopause. And-
Erin Kerry (16:47): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (16:48): ... um, and there's, there's nothing to... You could... Anybody should ever be thinking, like, well, it's just this, or, well, it's just that, or maybe, you know, double up on their hormone patches (laughs) or on-
Erin Kerry (16:58): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (16:58): ... the estrogen patches. That'll fix everything. Which people obviously, you know, try to do and, and it very well, you know, it helps in some way, but it doesn't help in, in, in all those ways. So you actually have to learn how to manage your own brain, and it's a skill. It's not, um, it's not like... It's not impossible. It's not like telling somebody you have to learn how to fly, (laughs) you know? This is a skill that you can actually learn. These are skills you can, you can do and, and practice so that your brain isn't... Like, you're in a, you know, your... I, I don't wanna say your brain, but your, you know, your lower levels of, of estrogen affecting your lower levels of dopamine aren't what is 100% in the driver's seat of your life.
(17:41) You get to be, 'cause there's more to you than your estrogen, dopamine levels.
Erin Kerry (17:46): Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, this is hitting so good. I mean, like, this is so good. I, I had my dopamine metabolites tested, I mean, it's a while back.
Shanna Pearson (17:53): Oh, cool.
Erin Kerry (17:54): And it was very low. Very low. And I'm like, this confirms what I have always thought my whole life. (laughs) 'Cause I'm always seeking, I'm seeking stimulus all the time, whether it's-
Shanna Pearson (18:02): Interesting. Yeah
Erin Kerry (18:02): ... crunchy foods or sugar or shopping or activity-
Shanna Pearson (18:06): Yeah
Erin Kerry (18:06): ... or just go to the next thing, you know? Um, and so it was really helpful for me to see it on paper and go, "Oh, I really..." ... don't ha- whether I'm running through it too quickly, like you said, or I'm just not making it, or I don't have the receptor funct- who knows? (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (18:19): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (18:20): Or like-
Shanna Pearson (18:20): Yeah, yeah, yeah
Erin Kerry (18:21): ... um, but it was, it was really, at least it was validating for me to go, like, I really am looking for it, you know, 'cause it's low. So, um, super fascinating. Anyway, so yeah.
Shanna Pearson (18:29): So what do you do... So, so you're saying that you look for it, but sci- like, so that people understand what you mean-
Erin Kerry (18:35): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (18:35): ... 'cause I think that you're probably-
Erin Kerry (18:36): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (18:36): ... that's exactly, like, what you just described is exactly it. (laughs) You know? Like, that's it for, like, pretty much every woman.
Erin Kerry (18:43): Yeah. True.
Shanna Pearson (18:44): So when, when you, when you say that you're, like, you're looking for it, tell, tell us in, in a day, you know, in a, on a, on a regular, on a regular weekday what it looks like. Is it, was it something you were talking about with your kids? Is it how you're reacting in something with work? Is it... Like, what does it look like so people can get what you're saying?
Erin Kerry (19:02): Yeah, no, I think that's, that's a great question. Yeah. Um, you're, you're... Now you're interviewing me. Um, (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (19:06): Oh, yeah. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (19:07): I do-
Shanna Pearson (19:08): Sorry. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (19:08): I have found I, I get the zoomies, and I've only really learned this from my child, who... Uh, it- it's like I've learned more about my symptoms through him than anything else, and maybe I'm over-projecting, but he has to move his body throughout the day. He has these breaks where he does this thing. He goes to his room, and he does this, it's called a psh-psh thing, where he just, like, does this imaginary fight with these bad guys. I don't even know. He's been doing it since he was, like, two. He's nine now. It's, it's been going on for a very long time.
Shanna Pearson (19:33): Mm-hmm.
Erin Kerry (19:33): And for me, I'm like, "Oh, that's why I have to work out every day," 'cause I wake up and my brain is noisy.
Shanna Pearson (19:37): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (19:37): And like, I wake up with loud thoughts, like, that are just-
Shanna Pearson (19:41): Right
Erin Kerry (19:41): ... there's conversations in my head. And I've asked my husband about this. He's very neurotypical, and he... I'm like, "Do you just wake up with, like, a thousand things in your head, and you have to figure out which one you're gonna go to first and what train you're gonna catch?" He's like, "What are you talking about?" (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (19:52): No. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (19:53): And so-
Shanna Pearson (19:53): I just want a coffee
Erin Kerry (19:54): ... and so yeah.
Shanna Pearson (19:55): (laughs)
Erin Kerry (19:55): So this could be, this could be a symptom of the age that I am and everything, but it's also I've always been that way.
Shanna Pearson (20:01): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (20:02): I just always have had this... It's almost like a restlessness-
Shanna Pearson (20:04): Yeah
Erin Kerry (20:04): ... within me-
Shanna Pearson (20:05): An inner restlessness
Erin Kerry (20:05): ... and that I have to direct it somewhere.
Shanna Pearson (20:07): Right.
Erin Kerry (20:07): And so moving my body helps to move the train of thoughts through a little bit. So that's one example. I don't know if that-
Shanna Pearson (20:13): That's great. That's excellent. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's like, it's a, it's a, it's an emotional, mental restlessness.
Erin Kerry (20:21): Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really good description. I've never-
Shanna Pearson (20:24): Yeah
Erin Kerry (20:24): ... actually thought about it that way until we're saying this out loud. I love how that works.
Shanna Pearson (20:27): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (20:28): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (20:28): No, it really... Like, what you've just described is exactly, you know, this, like, this mental restlessness where you're just constantly... And you cannot put it... It's just, like, this jittery, you know, these-
Erin Kerry (20:38): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (20:38): ... thoughts that are constantly ever-changing and getting bigger and getting smaller and getting bigger and... (laughs) You know?
Erin Kerry (20:42): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (20:42): And so, yeah, it's like a-
Erin Kerry (20:44): That's funny. I've, even I've done energy healing work before, and, and the person that did that, she's like, "Man, when I go over to the, the head region," she's like, "It's, it's like you're buzzing." I was like, "I am buzzing. I feel like I'm buzzing all the time." (laughs) This is not just, it's not just what you're experiencing. So it's just funny, and it... So I think that, um, it, if, if somebody's listening and is like, "Oh," 'cause it can be mis- misinterpreted as anxiety, right?
Shanna Pearson (21:06): Yeah, definitely.
Erin Kerry (21:07): Um, and, and that overthinking factor. Can we talk about that? Like, why... That overthinking the worst-case scenario brain, why is that a common thing? What are we looking for when we do that?
Shanna Pearson (21:17): Well, exa- think about what we've just been talking about-
Erin Kerry (21:20): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (21:20): ... because it's all the exact same thing, the overthinking and catastrophizing.
Erin Kerry (21:25): Mm. Yep.
Shanna Pearson (21:27): Imagine someone just told you something, and you heard it, and it just went into your brain, and you thought about it, and it's all good.
Erin Kerry (21:37): Yeah, but it's... Yeah, it's bl- uh, yeah, flatline. It's baseline. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (21:40): Flatline.
Erin Kerry (21:40): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (21:41): Flatline.
Erin Kerry (21:41): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (21:41): Now imagine somebody told you something, and you sat there, and you thought about it, and you played with it on every level.
Erin Kerry (21:48): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (21:48): You played baseball with it, softball, soccer, (laughs) you know, do any kind-
Erin Kerry (21:51): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (21:51): ... of mental gymnastics that you want with that thought, and you turn it inside out, and you imagine in different scenarios, and what if she was involved, and he was involved, and then they did that, and what if we divide it up and, you know, maybe we should pay them more, and maybe we should (laughs) you know-
Erin Kerry (22:02): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (22:02): ... just go nuts with it. There's no flatline there.
Erin Kerry (22:06): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (22:07): There's no flatline.
Erin Kerry (22:08): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (22:08): It's just pure mental gymnastics.
Erin Kerry (22:11): So it's like, are we a- are we addicted to it? Like, how do you, how do you stop that?
Shanna Pearson (22:15): It's a habitual way of being.
Erin Kerry (22:17): Okay.
Shanna Pearson (22:17): And, you know, anyone who's, like, into, which I am not, but I quote, unquote, "should be," (laughs) you know, into any kind of, like, mindfulness or... You know, like, you can... You know, you can not engage with the thoughts in the same, you know, with the same level of intensity. You know? That's what we can do. The thoughts are always gonna be there, but the intensity of our engagement-
Erin Kerry (22:42): Mm
Shanna Pearson (22:42): ... is what can change, where you don't have to get caught up in them because you know that they're... it's just pure and simple mental gymnastics. It's like what every, you know, therapist on the planet tells you, to name it to tame it, (laughs) right? So, you know, what am I doing right now? Why am I going... You know, I'm catastrophizing. Okay.
Erin Kerry (23:00): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (23:00): You know? Great. I obviously am doing this because I need stimulus. Like, you know, where else can I get some stimulus? And so-
Erin Kerry (23:07): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (23:07): ... you know, like in, in our coaching program, we're big on, um, we're very big on using stimulus because we're not gonna get rid of it.
Erin Kerry (23:15): Right.
Shanna Pearson (23:15): That would be terrible. (laughs) Like, we couldn't live.
Erin Kerry (23:18): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (23:18): But definitely to replace negative stimulus with positive stimulus, like what you were talking about earlier, about, you know, you need to work out, you know, every day. Like, that is definitely a positive stimulus.
Erin Kerry (23:30): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (23:30): You've got the endorphins. You've got your, you know, you're, you're helping your body. You're b- you're healthier. You're, you know-
Erin Kerry (23:35): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (23:35): ... you're not, you're not wasting time idling, you know? Thinking-
Erin Kerry (23:39): Which I can do
Shanna Pearson (23:39): ... bad thoughts.
Erin Kerry (23:40): Yeah. (laughs) Right.
Shanna Pearson (23:41): Yeah. We can all do that. But that-
Erin Kerry (23:42): Like think about doom scrolling. I mean, that would be a stimulus, too, right? But it'd be a negative-
Shanna Pearson (23:46): Yeah
Erin Kerry (23:46): ... stimulus.
Shanna Pearson (23:47): That, that's definitely a negative. I don't know a single person who feels better-
Erin Kerry (23:50): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (23:51): ... after five minutes even of doom scrolling, let alone three hours.
Erin Kerry (23:55): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (23:55): I don't know anyone. Like, and we have so many... Like, it's one of the first questions we would ask our clients who do that. They just spend hours on their phone-
Erin Kerry (24:03): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (24:03): ... not doing anything, just doom scrolling. And when you can be self-aware enough to just ask yourself, "How am I feeling?" You know, when you finally do turn your phone off, you know, try it. (laughs) Try it.
Erin Kerry (24:20): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (24:20): 'Cause it, you're gonna feel not... You're not gonna feel great. You're gonna feel bored, you're gonna feel tired, you might feel annoyed, you might feel unsatisfied-
Erin Kerry (24:29): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (24:29): ... 'cause, you know, whatever you happen to be watching. You might feel like you need to do-
Erin Kerry (24:33): Yep
Shanna Pearson (24:33): ... X, Y, Z. Um, but you're never gonna feel awesome-
Erin Kerry (24:38): Hmm
Shanna Pearson (24:39): ... or alive.
Erin Kerry (24:41): Yep. Yeah. I mean, that's so true. And then, and then that is also taking up time that could be used for the things that you're supposed to be doing, that you're avoiding doing. So how do you help people, like, answer emails (laughs) and, you know, get into those types of things? Because that's... There's not a lot of stimulus in answering emails, responding to emails.
Shanna Pearson (25:01): I know, it sucks. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (25:03): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (25:03): Like, those are, like, the really boring things that we have to do.
Erin Kerry (25:06): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (25:07): So the first thing to do with anything boring that you have to do is always, always have at the front of your mind why you have to do it.
Erin Kerry (25:17): Hmm.
Shanna Pearson (25:18): You know, you can call that your big why, but it's not gonna be a big why to answering your emails. But there should always be, "I'm, I'm doing this so that I can."
Erin Kerry (25:29): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (25:30): So that I can. What is the so that I can?
Erin Kerry (25:35): And it-
Shanna Pearson (25:35): Is it just to feel better?
Erin Kerry (25:37): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (25:37): Is it just to not have to look at so much, you know, stupidness all day that's been unanswered, and I feel bad about myself? Is it to get back to people who are waiting for me-
Erin Kerry (25:48): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (25:48): ... and to help them?
Erin Kerry (25:50): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (25:51): You know? Is it j- is it, is it for me? Is it for them? Is it for my family? Is it for my... You know, is it for work? So it's for, you know, making, earning a living. What is the so that I can?
Erin Kerry (26:03): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (26:03): And then you take the so that I can and then make that a little bit bigger. Well, like, let's say it's for my family. Like, why is that a big deal? Why do I need to do this for my family? Why do I need to do this? Why does it matter if I earn this amount of money or that amount of money, or if I keep this job or have to get another job? Why is that important? Always go to your why, because that's the part we never think about when we've numbed our mind th- via doom scrolling or whatever else you want to distract yourself with.
Erin Kerry (26:31): Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause it's like... I mean, that, that can seem... The things that you don't wanna do that there's no stimulus for, it, it's a lot easier to, th- this day and age especially, to pick up something else that's gonna be a distraction.
Shanna Pearson (26:44): Yes, 100%. There's always a distraction.
Erin Kerry (26:47): Always. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (26:47): (laughs) There's always a distraction.
Erin Kerry (26:48): Or you make your own. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (26:49): Yeah, it's very easy.
Erin Kerry (26:50): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (26:50): We're not, we're... Like, we're living in an age right now, and I, and I don't think it's gonna change ever, where, you know, we, we will ever have empty space. We will always be able to fill it up in a nanosecond.
Erin Kerry (27:01): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (27:01): And so at this day and age, like now that we're not, you know, we're no longer farmers, (laughs) you know, waiting for the rain. (laughs) Like, we're no longer... And by the way, farmers are very busy, but they're, you know, they're, they're, they're always focused on one, you know, on one thing usually at a time. It's pretty amazing. But the... it's really like we're in a time right now where we have to be at choice about what we're gonna do with our time.
Erin Kerry (27:28): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (27:29): Because of the way that, you know, algorithms are set up, if we're not fully... If we're not, like, in charge of that, then you're just, you know, you're literally giving up your power to, you know, to, name, name your, name your device, name your-
Erin Kerry (27:45): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (27:46): ... your channel.
Erin Kerry (27:47): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (27:47): You're giving it all up. You're giving it away. And that's a choice.
Erin Kerry (27:50): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (27:50): Maybe you want to. Maybe it's just easier to do that, and that's fine. But maybe you wanna do something different. Maybe you'd rather do it this way instead. It's... As long as you're not just getting sucked up in it with no, you know, not being conscious of it.
Erin Kerry (28:05): Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. Uh, 'cause it is. I mean, there's, there's so much, and that feels overwhelming. And there's a lot of overwhelm with ADHD as well because it's-
Shanna Pearson (28:13): It's all overwhelm. Yeah
Erin Kerry (28:14): ... the indecisiveness and the having to choose. And what about sleep? How much does sleep factor into helping with symptoms? And s- um, you even talk about circadian rhythm.
Shanna Pearson (28:26): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (28:26): Like, how does that factor in?
Shanna Pearson (28:27): Well, our circadian rhythm is really about, you know, when it makes sense to do certain tasks. You know? If you're a morning person, you're gonna wanna do your more difficult tasks-
Erin Kerry (28:36): Hmm
Shanna Pearson (28:36): ... at that time of day. You're not gonna wanna save your difficult tasks for the time of day when you're, like, exhausted and not... You know, barely awake. If you're an evening person or whatever, you're gonna wanna do your toughest tasks at that time of day. You know? So it's not like you always have to stick to the same schedule as everyone else. You just have to work with your own personal energy times or your circadian rhythm.
Erin Kerry (29:00): Yeah, I love that.
Shanna Pearson (29:00): And, you know, it's... That's really, it... That's really helpful. It's really helpful-
Erin Kerry (29:04): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (29:04): ... when you can find out when you're at your best.
Erin Kerry (29:06): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (29:06): And instead of, you know, instead of going on your phone for two hours during that window-
Erin Kerry (29:11): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (29:11): ... yeah, d- go on your phone later when you're actually, you know, exhausted and half, you know, half asleep anyway.
Erin Kerry (29:17): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (29:17): 'Cause it's not gonna be the most productive time for you, if you have to, you know, spend your time on your phone.
Erin Kerry (29:22): Yeah. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (29:23): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (29:23): No, that, that makes total sense. So then, so, like, the emails, that would be, like, the beginning of the day if you're a morning person, as opposed to waiting till the end of the day to do the emails and, and all that.
Shanna Pearson (29:32): Yeah. And the way we help, I mean, I mean, I know we talked about the book, but I have a coaching company, right? And it's very hands-on. (laughs) So we're not gonna, like, talk to you about, "Here's what you should do, and here, write this down, and take it home with you. Let me know how it goes next week." We do it with you.
Erin Kerry (29:50): Hmm.
Shanna Pearson (29:51): Right? So if, if you had, like, you know, 13,000 unread emails in your inbox (laughs) and counting, like, we're gonna start by going through some of those, you know, slowly, slowly and getting into a pattern where you can go through a certain amount every single day, but I'm gonna do it with you.
Erin Kerry (30:08): Hmm.
Shanna Pearson (30:08): You know, your coach will do it with you. And so you learn how to categorize, mark, you know, like, create systems for your email inbox so that you're not staring at a lifetime's worth of undone things, unread, you know, messages.
Erin Kerry (30:22): Mm-hmm. Ooh, yeah, that's good, 'cause that is, that is my problem area, emails and then pictures in my phone. (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (30:28): Oh, yeah.
Erin Kerry (30:28): So many things. I'm like, "Why did I take a screenshot of that thing?" Or whatever it was. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (30:32): Right, right, right.
Erin Kerry (30:32): That all builds up, too. And then I think that that just adds to the overwhelm. It adds to the... There's just so much stuff that's just hovering in our-
Shanna Pearson (30:39): Yeah
Erin Kerry (30:39): ... in our existence. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (30:41): Yeah, it's so much stuff. It's so much stuff.
Erin Kerry (30:42): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (30:42): And it's just, like... It kind of, it's- I wonder (laughs) if, you know, if it's just gonna- if we're just gonna keep doing these things or if we're gonna go back to a certain, you know, if we're gonna-
Erin Kerry (30:52): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (30:53): ... decide, like, this isn't helping humanity. But I don't actually think that that's gonna happen, but I don't really think it helps us-
Erin Kerry (31:01): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (31:01): ... so much. I really don't. But, um, it's helpful in some ways. It's helpful to, you know, you have kids. I have kids. You know, it's great to know where they are-
Erin Kerry (31:10): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (31:10): ... by tr- by s-
Erin Kerry (31:11): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (31:11): ... like, by, you know, seeing where they are-
Erin Kerry (31:13): Totally
Shanna Pearson (31:13): ... on their phone. Otherwise-
Erin Kerry (31:15): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (31:15): ... like, it's, it's different now than it was in the '80s-
Erin Kerry (31:18): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (31:18): ... when I grew up, you know.
Erin Kerry (31:19): Yeah, that is true. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (31:20): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (31:20): There are benefits to it. So yeah, so going back to sleep, um, how, how can we... I mean, I know a lot of people with ADHD struggle with either going to sleep or just not waking up feeling rested and, like, 'cause the brain is always on. Like, how do you support people with sleep issues?
Shanna Pearson (31:36): I feel like a lot of, a lot of our clients who have sleep issues, it's, it tends to, um, be sourced in when they take their medication, interestingly-
Erin Kerry (31:45): Ah
Shanna Pearson (31:45): ... enough. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (31:45): That makes a lot of sense.
Shanna Pearson (31:46): So 'cause, like, our medication, ADHD medication are, uh, stimulant-based.
Erin Kerry (31:51): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (31:52): And so if you're taking your medication at 8:00 AM, right, and it has, like, a 14 to 16-hour, you know, (laughs) lifespan-
Erin Kerry (31:59): Okay
Shanna Pearson (31:59): ... then, you know, 10:00 AM is the earliest you'll feel tired, and you might not feel tired until 2:00.
Erin Kerry (32:05): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (32:06): And so-
Erin Kerry (32:08): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (32:08): ... and then, you know, you wake up a little bit later, and then you take your medication, and then the whole thing just cycles again.
Erin Kerry (32:13): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (32:14): And so I feel like sleep is huge. Sleep is huge because well, think about it. A neurotypical person, if they don't get enough sleep, think about all of the things that they experience besides feeling tired.
Erin Kerry (32:32): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (32:32): What do they experience? They feel... A neurotypical person on a lack of sleep feels impatient. They are impulsive. There's definitely, like, they're not thinking straight. There's, like, brain fog, (laughs) they're, you know, there's just, like, definitely, like, wilder thoughts. You know, they catastrophize more when they're not rested enough. There's a lot of things you're gonna hear from people who are neurotypical about, you know, what their, what their day is like when they don't have enough sleep. That's an ADHD brain.
Erin Kerry (33:00): Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (33:01): Period. Now put an ADHD person without a lot of sleep.
Erin Kerry (33:05): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (33:05): Right? And now you've just like-
Erin Kerry (33:07): It's a disaster
Shanna Pearson (33:07): ... exacerbated all of those-
Erin Kerry (33:09): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (33:09): ... all of those symptoms. So we have to get enough sleep for us. For every person, it's gonna be different, but I think at least seven hours, you know?
Erin Kerry (33:17): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (33:17): And so you wanna, if you take ADHD medication, the first thing to think about is taking your medication super early. Like, don't take it after 7:00 AM.
Erin Kerry (33:26): Right.
Shanna Pearson (33:26): You know? And so that means, like, waking up (laughs) to take your medication and then, you know, see if you wanna go back to sleeping in after that, and you probably won't be able to. But it'll put you on a schedule that's doable to get enough hours of sleep.
Erin Kerry (33:40): Yeah. Yeah, definitely. 'Cause I... But even the schedule part, so how do you do that? How do you put somebody on a schedule that's doable and consistent, and, and how, how does that work?
Shanna Pearson (33:49): Slowly.
Erin Kerry (33:50): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (33:50): You don't do it all at once unless that's what works for you, but it doesn't really work for a lot of people. But we like moving people's bedtime by, like, lit- literally, like, 20 minutes every three days.
Erin Kerry (33:59): Hmm.
Shanna Pearson (34:00): You know? So if somebody never goes to bed before 3:00 AM, we'll have them going to bed by 1:00 AM (laughs) within only-
Erin Kerry (34:08): Hmm
Shanna Pearson (34:08): ... you know, literally within only a couple of weeks, which is not bad.
Erin Kerry (34:10): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (34:10): So after a month, they're actually going to bed at a somewhat normal time, and then it keeps getting better and better. But their body gets used to it, you know?
Erin Kerry (34:18): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (34:18): And, and, and some people just wanna be like, "Ah, forget it, I'm just going to..." It's like when you take a, you know, when you're in a different country. Like, you just set your clock, and that's when I'm going to bed. I'm going to bed at 11:00, and that's just how it is. That's fine, but, um, for a lot of our clients, it's not as helpful (laughs) as just, like, slowly, like, slow increments to get on a schedule. But at the end of the day, don't just get on a schedule 'cause you think you should. Get on a schedule because you know it's gonna help you, and you have a reason behind it. Otherwise, you're not gonna stick to it.
Erin Kerry (34:45): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think that that, um, it, it goes back to the why. (laughs) It goes back to the-
Shanna Pearson (34:50): Yeah
Erin Kerry (34:50): ... what's the reason, why. I think that that is very helpful for people with ADHD 'cause they always have a deep why for anything, right? There's a... I think they're big feelers. And I, I don't wanna-
Shanna Pearson (34:59): Yeah
Erin Kerry (34:59): ... generalize, but I do think that-
Shanna Pearson (35:00): They are
Erin Kerry (35:01): ... there's a sensitivity to everything that's going on in the world. And so-
Shanna Pearson (35:06): Yeah
Erin Kerry (35:06): ... that why matters because everything matters, right? (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (35:09): Everything matters, and everything is emotional.
Erin Kerry (35:11): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (35:12): Everything. And so I f- I feel like almost anything you can, you can think of, even if it's having to do your laundry, (laughs) right-
Erin Kerry (35:18): Mm
Shanna Pearson (35:18): ... you know, or organizing your kitchen cupboards, everything has to have a why-
Erin Kerry (35:22): Mm
Shanna Pearson (35:22): ... behind it for a person with ADHD so that you stick with it, so that you follow through with it. The reason we don't follow through with things is because we lose the connection.
Erin Kerry (35:33): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (35:33): It was so exciting. It was the best idea ever. It was like, "Oh my gosh." It was like, like mind-boggling. Like, "I can't wait."
Erin Kerry (35:40): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (35:40): "I'm gonna totally do this." And then it gets challenging.
Erin Kerry (35:42): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (35:43): Or maybe it gets boring.
Erin Kerry (35:46): Oh, yeah.
Shanna Pearson (35:46): But either way, you're done with that idea, and you're on to the next-
Erin Kerry (35:50): Mm
Shanna Pearson (35:50): ... and the next. So you have to keep yourself, on purpose, you know, attached to the why, attached to what's the bigger reason behind it, and that's what will help you follow through with things.
Erin Kerry (36:02): Yeah. Yeah. My biggest why for doing... 'Cause I hate laundry. Laundry's the worst, but it's like I also hate the pain of being overwhelmed by the laundry when it really piles up. So it's like-
Shanna Pearson (36:11): Yeah
Erin Kerry (36:11): ... I don't wanna feel that in two days, so I have to do it now.
Shanna Pearson (36:16): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (36:16): But it's, it's har- I mean, even then, it's still hard 'cause there's so many other things I'd rather be doing. Or I have to tell myself one of my whys is it really doesn't take that long. (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (36:24): No, it really doesn't. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (36:26): Just... (laughs) Like if, and I'll time myself on some things and go, "Okay, see? That wasn't that bad. You c- " I mean, it is, it's tricky. So what about, um, like-
Shanna Pearson (36:33): Well, wait. What's so-
Erin Kerry (36:35): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (36:35): ... well, I wanna know so- I wanna break this down-
Erin Kerry (36:36): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (36:36): ... for you, okay?
Erin Kerry (36:37): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (36:37): Are you okay with that?
Erin Kerry (36:38): Yeah. No, this is fun. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (36:39): What is it about laundry that trips you up? Is it your kids' laundry, or is it your laundry?
Erin Kerry (36:43): It's, it's real- it's the work, it's my workout clothes and my kids' stuff. It's really that. 'Cause that is constant. There's always... It's, it's always there. It's... And I, it never feels like it's done because-
Shanna Pearson (36:57): Yeah
Erin Kerry (36:57): ... there's always more. So I think that's what trips me up. Like, I don't have a set time that I do it and I'm done because it's always happening. (laughs) It's like the dishwasher too, same thing.
Shanna Pearson (37:04): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (37:04): Like, it's always something that has to be done.
Shanna Pearson (37:07): Okay. So I think, like, something that tends to help people is to have a time that you do it. You know, a lot of people like attaching it, you know, piggybacking it-
Erin Kerry (37:14): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (37:14): ... to, like even just like a TV show that they happen to be watching, like, on, you know, like whatever-
Erin Kerry (37:19): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (37:19): ... like at 8:00 PM, 'cause as annoying as laundry is, and I learned this while I was backpacking overseas when I was in my 20s.
Erin Kerry (37:28): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (37:29): We don't actually wash our clothes, the machine does. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (37:33): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (37:33): And so it's really cool. Like, I came back from this whole-
Erin Kerry (37:36): It's true
Shanna Pearson (37:36): ... backpacking experience thinking like, "Oh my God, we have these machines that do these things for us."
Erin Kerry (37:40): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (37:40): "This is incredible." I used to literally wash my clothes because I didn't... I was, like, in the middle of nowhere.
Erin Kerry (37:45): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (37:46): And, like, that was only for a few years. This was not my life, (laughs) but it was an experience.
Erin Kerry (37:50): Wow.
Shanna Pearson (37:50): And then I, and then I came back to civilization, (laughs) and I'm like, "Wow, this is incredible."
Erin Kerry (37:54): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (37:54): I press a button and it just like, it's done.
Erin Kerry (37:56): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (37:57): And so I'm, like, one of the few ADHDers that just, like, has no problem with laundry-
Erin Kerry (38:01): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (38:01): ... 'cause I'm still amazed that these machines do everything. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (38:04): That's so funny.
Shanna Pearson (38:05): But-
Erin Kerry (38:05): That's a good perspective
Shanna Pearson (38:06): ... but, like, but for our clients who are, you know, not like me, (laughs) they're more normal than that, they're just, they, they just, you know, they, they figure out when to attach it.
Erin Kerry (38:16): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (38:16): Where-
Erin Kerry (38:17): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (38:17): ... to attach the laundry. You know, attach it to the 8:00 PM show, attach it to the 9:00 PM show, attach it to while I'm reading.
Erin Kerry (38:24): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (38:24): You know, like, this is my reading time. I'm gonna do the laundry, then I'm gonna sit down with my book, right?
Erin Kerry (38:29): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (38:29): Um, s- some, some of, um, some of my more like, like, I think, uh, brave clients have gotten their kids involved. Like, any kid over the age of six-
Erin Kerry (38:40): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (38:40): ... can bring their, can bring their laundry to the laundry room.
Erin Kerry (38:43): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (38:43): (laughs) You know, like, and, and it's really, it's amazing, especially I've got clients who have, like, you know, lots of kids, (laughs) like-
Erin Kerry (38:51): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (38:51): ... and, um, and that's what they've been doing. They've just been getting their kids to, to help, which sounds crazy 'cause our kids don't want to, and it's just one more thing to ask them to do. But they've done it.
Erin Kerry (39:02): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (39:02): And so, you know, it's really, uh, it's doable when you can attach it to something and when you're not doing it completely by yourself.
Erin Kerry (39:10): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (39:10): You know? And all they, all w- people really need to do is just bring their laundry into, into a room, into the laundry room or wherever.
Erin Kerry (39:16): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (39:16): And then-
Erin Kerry (39:16): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (39:17): ... you know, it becomes a little bit easier if it's, if it's at a, if it's at a time.
Erin Kerry (39:22): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (39:22): Like, and then you can expect it so it doesn't, like, pile up on itself.
Erin Kerry (39:25): Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah.
Shanna Pearson (39:26): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (39:26): And for me it's not even... So disclosure, my husband actually does m- the washing part of it.
Shanna Pearson (39:30): (laughs)
Erin Kerry (39:30): He does the throwing in. I just have to sort it. (laughs) And that's-
Shanna Pearson (39:34): Right
Erin Kerry (39:34): ... that's the part that I really should enlist my kids to do.
Shanna Pearson (39:36): I was gonna say-
Erin Kerry (39:37): But they are old enough
Shanna Pearson (39:37): ... kids love to sh- sort.
Erin Kerry (39:38): They're old enough to do it.
Shanna Pearson (39:39): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (39:39): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (39:39): Like, those baby toys are all sorting-
Erin Kerry (39:41): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (39:41): ... the things. Like, kids-
Erin Kerry (39:42): Uh-huh
Shanna Pearson (39:42): ... can sort.
Erin Kerry (39:42): They're-
Shanna Pearson (39:43): Yeah
Erin Kerry (39:43): ... yeah, they're so old n- my oldest, well, she's 21 now, but she was doing her own laundry-
Shanna Pearson (39:47): Oh, wow
Erin Kerry (39:47): ... when she was... Yeah, when she was in sixth grade, she was doing all of her own laundry. She's never... I mean, I haven't touched her laundry-
Shanna Pearson (39:52): Well, you did that-
Erin Kerry (39:53): ... for 10 years
Shanna Pearson (39:53): ... like, that was you.
Erin Kerry (39:54): Yeah. But then the other ones, I was a, I was a different parent with them. (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (39:59): (laughs)
Erin Kerry (39:59): So they're younger.
Shanna Pearson (40:00): What happened?
Erin Kerry (40:00): Um, so-
Shanna Pearson (40:01): Yeah
Erin Kerry (40:01): ... yeah, so strange.
Shanna Pearson (40:02): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (40:02): But yes.
Shanna Pearson (40:03): But great.
Erin Kerry (40:03): No, maybe having a whole-
Shanna Pearson (40:04): Well, you did that
Erin Kerry (40:04): ... little here.
Shanna Pearson (40:04): You can totally do that again.
Erin Kerry (40:05): Yeah, yeah, totally.
Shanna Pearson (40:05): If you did it then, you can do it. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (40:07): Yeah. Oh, this is so fun. Oh gosh. (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (40:09): The next time I talk to you I'm gonna, I'm gonna find out if you're, you're-
Erin Kerry (40:12): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (40:12): ... are they boys?
Erin Kerry (40:13): I think doing it. Yeah, boys. It's-
Shanna Pearson (40:14): Yeah
Erin Kerry (40:14): ... I think that's part of it too. It's like, I don't know, maybe I'm, I'm a little too-
Shanna Pearson (40:18): (laughs) We're being chauvinistic now. It's like, "The girls can do the laundry now." But your husband does the laundry too, so you're not-
Erin Kerry (40:23): He actually does. He does most of the housework. (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (40:24): I was gonna say, it's not like this household-
Erin Kerry (40:26): No
Shanna Pearson (40:26): ... is very like, um-
Erin Kerry (40:28): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (40:28): ... equal.
Erin Kerry (40:29): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (40:29): That's good.
Erin Kerry (40:29): He does. He does a lot, a lot of the things 'cause he knows how overwhelmed I get. And so, and just from the get-go, he's taken on quite a bit of it. So, um, yeah. But it's, it just piles up, you know?
Shanna Pearson (40:40): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (40:40): So.
Shanna Pearson (40:40): I know. It's just a pi-
Erin Kerry (40:41): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (40:41): ... anything that piles up, like dishes and laundry or messes in general, like office messes, you just have to start by getting, getting a handle on it by doing like a ti- like you do the one load, or you need to take-
Erin Kerry (40:52): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (40:52): ... away those two pieces of paper that are on your desk, and that, you know, if you have a big pile-
Erin Kerry (40:56): Right
Shanna Pearson (40:56): ... eventually it goes down. But for laundry and dishes, you just, you literally just find a consistent time that it makes the most sense.
Erin Kerry (41:05): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (41:05): And for some people, it's in the morning. It's not even in the-
Erin Kerry (41:07): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (41:07): You know, if they, if they work from home, it's while they're on their morning meetings, like they've got the machine-
Erin Kerry (41:11): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (41:11): ... going and they've got... Just find that time.
Erin Kerry (41:14): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (41:14): Usually it's gonna be a couple times a week. And, and, and that's the time, just like we've, you know, and because we're-
Erin Kerry (41:20): Mm
Shanna Pearson (41:20): ... not going to the river with soap and a bucket-
Erin Kerry (41:23): Right. (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (41:23): (laughs) And sitting there and scrubbing.
Erin Kerry (41:25): Gladly not. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (41:25): You really just have to find the time to, like, put the clothes-
Erin Kerry (41:28): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (41:28): ... in the machine and press the buttons.
Erin Kerry (41:29): Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (41:30): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (41:30): No, totally. Yeah. And it's-
Shanna Pearson (41:31): (laughs)
Erin Kerry (41:31): But it's so interesting 'cause it's tho- those are the little things that create the mental load of all of it.
Shanna Pearson (41:36): Yes. Yeah.
Erin Kerry (41:37): And those are the things that-
Shanna Pearson (41:38): You feel it.
Erin Kerry (41:38): Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (41:39): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (41:39): And I, and I do think that that has intensified for me in my perimenopausal years, and I see that for a lot of women, whether they have ADHD or not. It's just the load increases of-
Shanna Pearson (41:50): Yeah
Erin Kerry (41:50): ... everything.
Shanna Pearson (41:51): Everything gets heavier.
Erin Kerry (41:52): Everything feels more-
Shanna Pearson (41:52): Everything gets overwhelming. That's why we have to simplify things.
Erin Kerry (41:56): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (41:56): And one of the best ways to start to rein in, 'cause we really do feel like we're losing our minds.
Erin Kerry (42:01): Mm, mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (42:01): I think that's, like, the number one sentiment I hear from so many people is like, "I just feel like I'm losing it."
Erin Kerry (42:07): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (42:07): "I have no control." And the easiest way to take control back is to start getting control over the things that you do have control over, like laundry-
Erin Kerry (42:19): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (42:19): ... and dishes. It's just like, you know, when any- anyone who's ever been through any, you know, addiction program-
Erin Kerry (42:24): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (42:25): ... right? They, they, they start off really tiny, and you have to take care of a plant (laughs) or something 'cause-
Erin Kerry (42:30): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (42:30): ... you know, this is what you have to do. And it's, it's, it's brilliant (laughs) because it, and it works because there really are certain things we do have control over. And those, there's many things that we just have to do tiny little things that literally take, you know, five, maybe 10 minutes-
Erin Kerry (42:48): Mm
Shanna Pearson (42:48): ... to get on top of-
Erin Kerry (42:50): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (42:50): ... and then we've really reduced- The overload.
Erin Kerry (42:53): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (42:54): And that, that reduction of the, of the overload of too much, that reduction makes such a big difference to every area of our life, to our, to our mental health.
Erin Kerry (43:06): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (43:06): We don't snap. We don't fall apart.
Erin Kerry (43:08): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (43:08): We're not, like, at the, at the, at the end of our rope. Like s- you know, it just kind of lightens everything, and then you start doing it in another area, and you start doing it in another, and you start doing it in your inbox.
Erin Kerry (43:18): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (43:18): You start doing it with your dishes. You start slowly, slowly, slowly taking back control by taking small actions.
Erin Kerry (43:25): Yeah. Gosh, that's so helpful. So these are the kinds of things with your coaching company that you guys work on with people, that these-
Shanna Pearson (43:31): Oh, yeah
Erin Kerry (43:32): ... practical things.
Shanna Pearson (43:32): That's what we, we do all of it, and we do it with our clients-
Erin Kerry (43:34): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (43:34): ... because it's, I mean, I- you don't, obviously you don't have to be in our coaching program to know all these. So, like, I actually put a ton of coaching tools-
Erin Kerry (43:42): Mm
Shanna Pearson (43:42): ... in my book.
Erin Kerry (43:43): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (43:43): And, um, the coaching program is fabulous because we work with you, and we are there with you, and we're there in between your sessions, and we make you send proof-
Erin Kerry (43:51): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (43:52): ... of your laundry. (laughs)
Erin Kerry (43:53): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (43:54): Like, you send me a picture. I wanna see that pile, and I wanna see it-
Erin Kerry (43:56): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (43:57): ... go down, like, all, you know, all week long. Um, we have our, like, we hold our client, clients to, like, such a high level of accountability because that's what works for ADHD. We really-
Erin Kerry (44:07): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (44:07): ... you know, you have to be on your toes. You have to know that somebody's, like, gonna be checking in on you and-
Erin Kerry (44:12): Mm
Shanna Pearson (44:12): ... wants to see what you're doing.
Erin Kerry (44:14): Yeah. I think that's so helpful.
Shanna Pearson (44:16): It is.
Erin Kerry (44:16): So where can people find more information about that and get your book-
Shanna Pearson (44:20): Oh
Erin Kerry (44:20): ... and all that?
Shanna Pearson (44:21): Uh, well, my website is adhdcoaching.com. Very easy website to remember, adhdcoaching.com. The book is called Invisible ADHD, and, uh, you can get it anywhere, on Amazon, Barnes & Noble. Um, any bookstore should have it, and, or, you know, online. Um, and either way, you will 100% be helped. Whether you're in the coaching or whether you read the book, there will be, you know, something in there that's going to effectively change your life, which is the entire purpose of everything that I do and, and everything that we do.
Erin Kerry (44:57): Yeah. I love that. That's so fun. Okay.
Shanna Pearson (45:00): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (45:00): Oh, I forgot the, um, the name of the podcast is Sparking Wholeness. So if you could give just one piece of advice to spark someone toward wholeness, what would it be?
Shanna Pearson (45:09): One piece of advice. Trust yourself that you have more control than you think.
Erin Kerry (45:20): I like that. Yep. That's an awesome one, and it's not overwhelming, (laughs) so.
Shanna Pearson (45:25): Yeah, but we do. Like, those, th- what we were just talking about, those little things.
Erin Kerry (45:29): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (45:29): Those little things that we can take back.
Erin Kerry (45:31): Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Shanna Pearson (45:33): Yeah.
Erin Kerry (45:33): Gosh, this has been so much fun. Thanks for, um-
Shanna Pearson (45:35): Yeah
Erin Kerry (45:35): ... being on the show, and I even, I think I ran over a little bit longer than I was planning on. But, um, time is a feeling.
Shanna Pearson (45:41): (laughs)
Erin Kerry (45:42): So thanks for that, and, um-
Shanna Pearson (45:43): You're welcome. This was so fun.
Erin Kerry (45:44): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (45:44): It was really good to meet you.
Erin Kerry (45:45): I appreciate all your knowledge, and I think it's gonna be really helpful for listeners.
Shanna Pearson (45:48): Yay. That's it. That's the name of the game. (laughs) Take care. Thank you. (upbeat music)
Erin Kerry (45:55): The tiniest spark leads to the biggest blaze, and I hope that today's episode sparks you on a journey to healing and wholeness. Thanks for listening to Sparking Wholeness. For more information on what I do and my coaching programs, or maybe just to reach out and say hey, find me at sparkingwholeness.com or on Instagram @sparkingwholeness. Have a fabulous week.
Transcribed from the episode audio.