ADHD or Perimenopause? The Signs You’ve Been Missing

On episode 27 of The Tamsen Show, Shanna Pearson, founder of Expert ADHD Coaching and author of Invisible ADHD, tells Tamsen Fadal why so many women are only diagnosed with ADHD in midlife, how perimenopause and menopause make symptoms harder to manage, and which strategies help.

In this episode

• Why ADHD in women is often misdiagnosed as anxiety or depression, with Shanna reading questions from the GAD-7 and PHQ-9 screening forms
• How falling estrogen leaves less dopamine available, so systems that worked for years stop working
• Narrowing your focus to two or three tasks with a thick box drawn around them: “Keep it to three, and you’re free”
• Reset tools: physical state changes, like a strong mint followed by a glass of cold water, and writing a solution to whatever upset you with your non-dominant hand
• How ADHD affects confidence and relationships, and why partners need to know
• Medication (“It doesn’t help you focus on the right things”), hyperfocus as a real strength, listener questions, and a rapid-fire round of ADHD myths

Episode links

• The episode page on tamsenfadal.com, with show notes and the three self-assessments mentioned in the conversation
• The video on YouTube, titled “ADHD or Brain Fog in Perimenopause?”
• Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music

Transcript

This transcript follows the video above. Times are minutes and seconds into it. The audio version runs about two minutes longer, so its times differ.

Tamsen Fadal (0:00): Do you think ADHD impacts a woman's confidence?

Shanna Pearson (0:02): That's what it impacts (chuckles) like, first and foremost. You've had ADHD since you were born. Most women have no idea that they had ADHD when they were kids. You felt like you were completely out of sync with other people, and you didn't know why. Why am I having a hard time getting along with people? Why do I not have as many friends as I think I should have? Why do people seem to be annoyed with me all the time? Your brain is wired completely differently, and nobody knows it.

Tamsen Fadal (0:30): Shanna Pearson has coached tens of thousands of women. She built the largest one-on-one ADHD coaching program in the world, and her work is helping women understand their brains and take their lives back.

Shanna Pearson (0:41): Even if you've been getting by your entire life having ADHD, but you've created systems, and you don't even know you have ADHD, perimenopause and menopause are when a lot of women go get diagnosed.

Tamsen Fadal (0:51): Today, Shanna is breaking down what is really going on.

Shanna Pearson (0:54): 30 to 50% of our female clients have also been misdiagnosed with depression and mismedicated.

Tamsen Fadal (1:02): And she's sharing tools to help you feel more in control, less guilty, and finally understood.

Shanna Pearson (1:07): But if you write down the two things or the three things at the most, and then you draw with a very thick line, a box around it, this is an impenetrable wall. This is what you're focusing on right now, and it's this and only this.

Tamsen Fadal (1:20): So how do you know whether or not it's anxiety, depression, or ADHD, or both?

Shanna Pearson (1:26): I think it's a really important thing to talk about because...

Tamsen Fadal (1:30): Before we start, I just want to say thank you. If this show has helped you feel seen, less alone, and just a little more understood, it would mean so much if you hit subscribe and left a review. I read every single one, and they're a big part of how we keep these conversations going. Now, this is a topic I have been wanting to cover since we started the podcast because I'm constantly asking myself, "Is this ADHD, or is it brain fog?" And I know I'm not alone. So many women are being diagnosed later in life, and I get your questions every single day about this. There is good news. Shanna Pearson is here to break it all down, and she's answering your questions at the end of this episode. So be sure and stick around till the end, and let's get into it. (upbeat music) Shanna, I am so excited you're here.

Shanna Pearson (2:13): I am so excited I'm here (chuckles) .

Tamsen Fadal (2:14): And so is everybody else-

Shanna Pearson (2:15): (chuckles)

Tamsen Fadal (2:15): ... because three people came up to you all at once here in the studio-

Shanna Pearson (2:18): Yeah

Tamsen Fadal (2:18): ... and were like, "Okay, we need to talk to you about ADHD right now."

Shanna Pearson (2:21): Yeah, exactly.

Tamsen Fadal (2:21): Which completely makes sense because I think it's been a really big topic of late.

Shanna Pearson (2:26): It has been, especially for women.

Tamsen Fadal (2:28): First of all, not assuming that everybody knows these definitions, so let's define ADHD and then how it differs from ADD.

Shanna Pearson (2:36): ADD is an old term. They stopped using it quite a few years ago.

Tamsen Fadal (2:40): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (2:40): It used to be like the, you know, ADHD without the hyperactivity.

Tamsen Fadal (2:44): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (2:45): Now, they call it ADHD-I (chuckles)

Tamsen Fadal (2:48): Okay

Shanna Pearson (2:48): which is inattentive.

Tamsen Fadal (2:49): Oh, wow.

Shanna Pearson (2:50): So it's just a little bit confusing, um, 'cause it still has the H there, but you can have zero physical hyperactivity and then be diagnosed with ADHD-I, which is pretty common for a lot of women. That's, like, the most common diagnosis for, for the female population.

Tamsen Fadal (3:05): But overall, we can still say ADHD, right?

Shanna Pearson (3:07): Definitely.

Tamsen Fadal (3:08): You're an ADHD coach.

Shanna Pearson (3:10): Yep.

Tamsen Fadal (3:10): How did you become one?

Shanna Pearson (3:11): After I was diagnosed myself, um, thankfully, I was working in a nonprofit job, creating a coaching program in health and wellness-

Tamsen Fadal (3:20): Okay

Shanna Pearson (3:20): ... which is not my expertise. But I got this job, and I was doing a pretty good job because the, the participants, it was for 2,000 career coaches across the province of Ontario in Canada.

Tamsen Fadal (3:31): Wow.

Shanna Pearson (3:31): And, um, that was the same time that I was diagnosed with ADHD, and so I was seeing the results that these, you know, career coaches were getting in their health and wellness coaching program.

Tamsen Fadal (3:40): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (3:40): And I'm like, "Well, okay, I know how to get people from point A to point B." So... And then I was diagnosed with ADHD, and I decided, after spending so much time and effort in the health and wellness coaching program that I was doing, I'm like, "I need to transfer this and help people that are me."

Tamsen Fadal (3:55): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (3:55): "Like, these are my people." And so I just started it really slow, like, just get one client. You know, once I- once... That was at a point where I already had to start learning everything about ADHD and what works.

Tamsen Fadal (4:06): To help yourself.

Shanna Pearson (4:07): Yes. Well-

Tamsen Fadal (4:08): Well, and so-

Shanna Pearson (4:08): mm-hmm

Tamsen Fadal (4:08): ... I always think that's where so many things are rooted, right? You're dealing with something yourself, and then you realize that there's more to learn, more to learn, and then-

Shanna Pearson (4:14): So much-

Tamsen Fadal (4:15): ... and then something to teach

Shanna Pearson (4:15): ... to learn.

Tamsen Fadal (4:16): How did it feel when you were diagnosed with ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (4:20): I was 32. Um, my life (chuckles) my life was a disaster, just to put it, you know, straight. And at first, with the... In the same... It w- it was a bit of a mush mosh because they actually diagnosed me with depression initially, and it didn't quite make sense, even though my life was very depressing at the time, and I wasn't happy. Um, and I answered all of the self-assessment (chuckles) questionnaires, you know, according to... You know, it, it seemed to fit with depression, but I wasn't depressed. Um, and so, you know, they put me on an antidepressant, and that actually did make me feel depressed. And, uh, after a little bit, I was just- I just wanted to... I told the doctor, I'm like: "This is not, this is not me. This is not working." Um, and then he, the doctor initially that told me to go get diagnosed in the first place, s- sent me to one of those ADHD specialist doctors that literally took two days with me. It was, like, six-hour days twice and looked at every part of my life, all the way back to kindergarten.

Tamsen Fadal (5:26): Wow!

Shanna Pearson (5:26): I had to bring in my report cards that my mother still kept (chuckles) and-

Tamsen Fadal (5:30): Thank goodness.

Shanna Pearson (5:30): Yeah, so he was... He did such a thorough diagnosis. He basically told me, "You are the textbook, you know, textbook version of extreme ADHD," and, uh, and it totally made sense based on whatever I knew at the time.

Tamsen Fadal (5:43): So you had been ADHD your whole life but didn't know that?

Shanna Pearson (5:46): Everyone. Everyone who has ADHD has had ADHD for their entire life, and it's interesting because a lot of, especially, especially girls, they're not- they don't tend to be as visibly hyperactive as boys-

Tamsen Fadal (6:02): Mm

Shanna Pearson (6:02): ... so they tend to get missed when they're younger. Um, they're not as problematic.... or disruptive. And so they get missed, and then, you know, later in life they might get diagnosed, or for a lot of women, and this is... I mean, you know everything (chuckles) about this, um, when they're going through perimenopause or menopause, because of the lower amounts of estrogen-

Tamsen Fadal (6:22): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (6:23): ... which basically influence dopamine, and then you're- you have an even lower amount of dopamine. So even if you've been getting by your entire life, um, having ADHD, but you've created systems and you don't even know-

Tamsen Fadal (6:34): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (6:34): ... you have ADHD, perimenopause and menopause are when a lot of women go get diagnosed, because their life just falls apart.

Tamsen Fadal (6:43): Because just not being able to be, um, controlled now anymore? Like, you've had it all along?

Shanna Pearson (6:47): Your systems, you know, whether it's been like, you know, organization or time management or mood management, (chuckles) whatever-

Tamsen Fadal (6:53): Check, check, check

Shanna Pearson (6:53): ... (chuckles) whatever systems you've made and you put into your life, they've been working, but then you hit this time in your life where your dopamine levels are even lower, and those systems stop working-

Tamsen Fadal (7:05): Mm

Shanna Pearson (7:05): ... because it becomes a lot heavier and more severe, and that's when people are like, like, they cannot, they can't manage their minds in a way. Or it's just like they just feel like everything is spinning so far out of control, and that's when a lot of people go seek a diagnosis.

Tamsen Fadal (7:20): I will tell you that those words, I h- have to imagine, are gonna make a lot of people hearing this, especially women, feel so much better and relieved that, like, "Maybe that is what's going on with me-

Shanna Pearson (7:32): Mm

Tamsen Fadal (7:32): ... versus I feel like I'm losing it, or I feel like something-

Shanna Pearson (7:36): Yeah

Tamsen Fadal (7:36): ... is really wrong with me, or I'm going crazy."

Shanna Pearson (7:38): Yes.

Tamsen Fadal (7:38): Because I, I will tell you, and I've, I've not talked about this before, but, um, about a year and a half ago, I was sent to a psychiatrist from my therapist, who said, I... "You know, I think that you have ADHD, but I wanna see you a little bit more and probably go through the tests," or the few days that you went through-

Shanna Pearson (7:56): Mm-hmm

Tamsen Fadal (7:56): ... but I backed out, and I never did it. And I think I really regret that now, and I probably should go and, and follow through with that, but I really do un- after s- reading your book and just continuing to learn more about it, I have to imagine that he was probably right, and it was probably something I, I didn't know if I was ready to hear.

Shanna Pearson (8:12): If you're feeling great, and your life is feeling like you, you are feeling like you have your life under control, you don't necessarily need to go get a diagnosis if everything is fine.

Tamsen Fadal (8:21): Sure.

Shanna Pearson (8:22): It's not like I, I need to know that I have this now, because, I mean, maybe it's good, maybe not, but I think if you're... I mean, you're definitely in the right profession. (laughing)

Tamsen Fadal (8:32): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (8:32): And you are definitely doing the right type of work-

Tamsen Fadal (8:35): Okay

Shanna Pearson (8:35): ... because, you know, every day is different, and you're-

Tamsen Fadal (8:36): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (8:36): ... always, like, speaking to different people, and you're- I mean, you're amazing, you know? So-

Tamsen Fadal (8:40): You're kind

Shanna Pearson (8:41): ... if everything is, if everything is fantastic and on a good level for you-

Tamsen Fadal (8:45): But those systems that used to work-

Shanna Pearson (8:47): Yeah

Tamsen Fadal (8:47): ... for me, the systems that worked for me for 30 years in news, don't always work every day like they used to.

Shanna Pearson (8:52): Right, so that-

Tamsen Fadal (8:52): And I definitely, I'm definitely aware of that.

Shanna Pearson (8:54): Interesting.

Tamsen Fadal (8:55): You know, so when I was growing up, I guess the definition to me in my mind for a, a, a, ADHD, was always, like, a fidgeting little boy in the classroom, right?

Shanna Pearson (9:01): Totally.

Tamsen Fadal (9:02): It wasn't a 40-year-old mother of two. It wasn't a 55-year-old woman who switched ca- it wasn't any of- anything that we're talking about now.

Shanna Pearson (9:09): Right.

Tamsen Fadal (9:09): So what is a typical client for you?

Shanna Pearson (9:11): There's no typical ADHD, which is why it's actually tricky to diagnose.

Tamsen Fadal (9:16): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (9:16): However, there are some key areas that everyone seems to have in common. You know, if you're in your 40s and 50s, and, you know, everything's been working up until a certain point, um, it starts to feel like everything's unraveling. Our typical clients are unbelievably overwhelmed, where it feels like there's just way too much going on, and it's all taking up the exact same amount of space in your head. There's nowhere to put anything because we're not able... This is something about ADHD that I think you and hopefully a lot of, a lot of people watching this-

Tamsen Fadal (9:51): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (9:51): ... should know or listening to this should know. We don't have a very, uh, easy time compartmentalizing.

Tamsen Fadal (9:59): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (9:59): Okay?

Tamsen Fadal (10:00): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (10:00): So we're constantly living-

Tamsen Fadal (10:02): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (10:02): ... in this deluge of everything all at once, right now. And if you're-

Tamsen Fadal (10:06): I have to, I have to fix all this now, and nothing really takes-

Shanna Pearson (10:09): Nothing

Tamsen Fadal (10:09): ... precedence. It's all there.

Shanna Pearson (10:09): Nothing.

Tamsen Fadal (10:10): Right.

Shanna Pearson (10:10): It's all the exact same level of importance, everything.

Tamsen Fadal (10:13): You've described that to a T, though. That's exactly, that's exactly right.

Shanna Pearson (10:17): Okay. Good.

Tamsen Fadal (10:17): And I hear-

Shanna Pearson (10:17): That's it

Tamsen Fadal (10:17): ... a lot of women say that, too.

Shanna Pearson (10:18): And it's like that nonstop, every day. There's no respite. There's no, you know, like, "Oh, well, you know, it was really stressful last week, and, and but now I'm done with that, and, and everything is good." It is like that no matter what.

Tamsen Fadal (10:29): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (10:29): And you're living in that, which is incredibly stressful. (chuckles)

Tamsen Fadal (10:32): There's no typical client for that. There's no typical, like, just picture of somebody with ADHD. It could be-

Shanna Pearson (10:37): There isn't

Tamsen Fadal (10:38): ... all over the place.

Shanna Pearson (10:38): For a lot of women, honestly, we tend to be a little bit more, not... I don't want to say quieter. We tend to be more like, um, expressive and enthusiastic about different things. Tend to be-

Tamsen Fadal (10:51): Mm

Shanna Pearson (10:51): ... not everyone is.

Tamsen Fadal (10:52): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (10:52): But, um, but all of us are, are drowning in overwhelm all the time, and that's something that, you know, you can pretty much count on for, for any woman with ADHD.

Tamsen Fadal (11:03): What does ADHD look like in women today that maybe was different from, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago? I don't know.

Shanna Pearson (11:09): I feel like the way that the world is spinning (chuckles) and the amount of... I want to say it's like high volume. Everything is so high volume, and there's so many places to look and so many areas to get completely lost on.

Tamsen Fadal (11:23): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (11:23): So we didn't have, like, doomscrolling the way that we do now. We didn't, we didn't have anything. Like, we didn't have our social, we didn't have, we- the phones. Like, we don't even have a... We didn't have smartphones back then the way we do now. So it was easier to create systems that you can follow because there wasn't all of this other stuff pulling you in to different directions everywhere you go. And the stuff that we have now that's so distracting, we carry it with us.

Tamsen Fadal (11:51): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (11:51): Like, there's nowhere to go without it. So I feel like it's really hard. It, it's really, really, really hard now more than ever to have, to have this type of brain.

Tamsen Fadal (12:02): You have- Invisible ADHD is the book that you have.

Shanna Pearson (12:05): Yep.

Tamsen Fadal (12:05): Um, and there's a lot of strategies in this to really manage what's going on during this time.

Shanna Pearson (12:09): There's over 100 strate- I, I did way too much.

Tamsen Fadal (12:12): 100 strategies?

Shanna Pearson (12:13): Like, there's, there's plenty of people out there that write an entire book on one really great strategy, and-... I guess because I have it-

Tamsen Fadal (12:19): You decided to do-

Shanna Pearson (12:20): everything all at once right now, brain. I'm just like, "Put it in there!" (chuckles) Like, just-

Tamsen Fadal (12:24): I-

Shanna Pearson (12:24): 'cause you don't know-

Tamsen Fadal (12:24): We'll take it

Shanna Pearson (12:24): ... what's gonna work for somebody or what might not, so I just put- I put so many, so many tools in this book that we, that we use right now in our coaching program. Um, I just want people to have it. I want everyone to have it.

Tamsen Fadal (12:35): If you're listening to this or watching this today, and you're listening to what Shanna's saying, and you're like, "Oh, my gosh, I think that that's me. I need some strategies," I want, I wanna go through some of those.

Shanna Pearson (12:45): Mm-hmm.

Tamsen Fadal (12:45): First, I wanna go back to one thing you said. You said that, "I was in the right profession for somebody with ADHD." Is there a right or wrong profession?

Shanna Pearson (12:53): It-

Tamsen Fadal (12:53): Or are there certain professions for someone with ADHD that work better?

Shanna Pearson (12:56): I'd say as long as you're in a profession that you love, genuinely love, and I know you love what you're doing-

Tamsen Fadal (13:02): I do

Shanna Pearson (13:02): ... like, I know. I can feel it in every, you know, everywhere, and, and not even just here in person, but, you know, you can tell that you love what you're doing. That's the right profession. Don't go into a profession that you should be doing. Don't go into a profession-

Tamsen Fadal (13:16): Interesting

Shanna Pearson (13:16): ... because it necessarily, like, pays 10% more than another profession, um, but it's gonna be boring, and, like, you will- you won't, you won't be able to stick with it.

Tamsen Fadal (13:25): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (13:25): 'Cause I always tell our clients, like, it's one thing to get a job, and it's a completely different story to keep a job, and ADHDers tend to have a tougher time keeping jobs in terms of, like, being able to stay with the same thing day after day. You have to love it, and then-

Tamsen Fadal (13:43): Or have some variety in it.

Shanna Pearson (13:44): Yeah.

Tamsen Fadal (13:45): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (13:45): And that's part of loving it, right?

Tamsen Fadal (13:46): Yeah, that is part of loving it.

Shanna Pearson (13:46): If you have a job that, uh, has variety, then you're gonna lo- like, my job, I'm doing this... I've been doing the same... I've been running this company for so many years, and I cannot believe how I've stuck with it, but there's no day that's boring.

Tamsen Fadal (13:58): So your company, you have coaches under you, right?

Shanna Pearson (14:00): Yes, I have a lot of coaches under me.

Tamsen Fadal (14:02): ADHD coaches that you trained?

Shanna Pearson (14:03): I train all of them. It- ex- like, I train them. They're, they're in training for close to a year-

Tamsen Fadal (14:09): Wow

Shanna Pearson (14:09): ... with me, and it's almost like the less they already know about ADHD coaching, the better they are, because there's less unlearning to do. 'Cause what we do isn't just... I feel like a lot of ADHD coaching really focuses on time management and organization, and I know for a fact that you have to go a lot deeper than that.

Tamsen Fadal (14:28): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (14:28): Because you could have, like, a million time management strategies-

Tamsen Fadal (14:31): Sure

Shanna Pearson (14:31): ... but as an ADHD woman, if you don't feel like implementing them, you won't.

Tamsen Fadal (14:36): ADHD, is it genetic? Is it environmental? Is it both?

Shanna Pearson (14:40): It's genetic. It's highly genetic, and it's almost 100% of the time, if you're diagnosed with ADHD, w- somebody very closely related to you has it. It doesn't have to be your parents, but it could be your grandparents or your, or uncles or aunts or-

Tamsen Fadal (14:58): Hmm

Shanna Pearson (14:58): ... but you will find a very close family member who has it as well.

Tamsen Fadal (15:02): So interesting, so genetic. So if you, if you see, you know, your, if your mother has ADHD-

Shanna Pearson (15:07): Yeah

Tamsen Fadal (15:07): ... it's quite possible that you-

Shanna Pearson (15:08): Chances are pretty, pretty high that you'll have it, or if you're a woman who has ADHD, chances are, um, if you have two or three kids, one of them will most likely, not necessarily, but most likely, one of them will have symptoms of ADHD or just have ADHD.

Tamsen Fadal (15:25): You know, I hear more than ever women in menopause or perimenopause with ADHD or feeling like they have ADHD or trying to figure out whether is it brain fog or is it ADHD? We have all this new vocabulary right now.

Shanna Pearson (15:37): Mm-hmm.

Tamsen Fadal (15:37): And so if, if there's a woman listening and says, like, "Listen, I'm forgetting things. I feel like I'm kind of all over the place. I'm working on my phone. The next minute I forget what I w- in the middle of an email, I forget what I was doing, and I go over here," how do you differentiate between those two things? 'Cause there's a lot going on with your body-

Shanna Pearson (15:55): Mm-hmm

Tamsen Fadal (15:55): ... when your hormones start to decline.

Shanna Pearson (15:57): You really have to look at your entire life, because again, you're not... Like, ADHD doesn't just happen.

Tamsen Fadal (16:03): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (16:03): So you'll know, like, with this, with the brain fog, have you always been a little bit like that? Have you always felt like you're in a... You know, when you're going through perimenopause or menopause, you kind of feel like you're on a different frequency-

Tamsen Fadal (16:14): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (16:15): ... than, than a lot of people around you, unless they happen to be going through the same, (chuckles)

Tamsen Fadal (16:19): Right

Shanna Pearson (16:19): ... the same thing that you're going through.

Tamsen Fadal (16:20): Right.

Shanna Pearson (16:20): But have you always felt that? Have you always felt a little bit, like, not in alignment with, with the rest of the world, and you're operating at a different speed or level? Um, these are things to ask, like, about, you know, when you were in high school or when you were in your, your 20s or 30s. Has it always been like that on some level? And if so, you know, you might wanna get checked out. But I wanna say, and I think it's really important, because a lot of us, when we're feeling off, and, you know, we're not feeling great, or we're f- feeling like, you know, I've... It's been like, "I've just been feeling sadder than usual or more anxious than usual," and we tell our GP, they'll give us a self-assessment. They'll always give us the same self-assessment. So we've all gotten these, if you've ever said this to your doctor. So I can show you what they give you, and-

Tamsen Fadal (17:07): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (17:07): ... they give it to you.

Tamsen Fadal (17:07): So if you go into your doctor and you say, "I'm feeling a little bit off..."

Shanna Pearson (17:10): Yeah, "I'm feeling off," or, "I'm feeling anxious all the time. I'm constantly worrying. I can't stop worrying," um, or, "I just feel..." This is an imp- this is one especially for women in their 40s or 50s. (sighs) "I feel like my life just isn't turning out the way I wanted it to, and I don't know what to do about it, and I can't, I can't make my life work."

Tamsen Fadal (17:31): Hmm.

Shanna Pearson (17:31): Which is something I hear all the time from our clients. Um, they'll give you self-assessment tools, and they'll either give it to you on a clipboard or on an iPad. (chuckles)

Tamsen Fadal (17:41): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (17:41): But you'll get the same self-assessments, and the one for anxiety, it's called the GAD-7.

Tamsen Fadal (17:46): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (17:47): And this is the anxiety self-assessment, and they'll give this one to you, and they'll also give you the PHQ-9, which is the one for depression.

Tamsen Fadal (17:54): Can you read some of those on the two?

Shanna Pearson (17:56): Yeah.

Tamsen Fadal (17:56): These are-

Shanna Pearson (17:56): This is really important. So this is super, super important. I think everybody needs to know this. The GAD-7 for anxiety asks seven questions.

Tamsen Fadal (18:04): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (18:05): And every single one of these questions, for example, um, feeling nervous or on edge, uh, not being able to stop or control worrying. This is for anxiety-

Tamsen Fadal (18:16): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (18:16): ... so it makes sense, right? Trouble relaxing. (chuckles) Being so restless, it's hard to sit still.... Is this starting to? (laughs)

Tamsen Fadal (18:26): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (18:26): 'Cause you can tell, you know exactly where I'm-

Tamsen Fadal (18:26): Is it starting to sit with me, Shanna? Yes.

Shanna Pearson (18:28): Yeah. (laughs) You're starting- You know where I'm going. Being annoyed or easily irritable-

Tamsen Fadal (18:33): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (18:34): And, you know, feeling afraid, as if something awful might happen, these are all symptoms of ADHD.

Tamsen Fadal (18:41): But that's an anxiety test.

Shanna Pearson (18:42): Exactly! And I would say about 30 to 50% of our female clients that are, you know, around our age range, have also been misdiagnosed with depression and mismedicated.

Tamsen Fadal (18:55): And instead, it was-

Shanna Pearson (18:56): It was ADHD, and these are the lucky people who found out later that it was ADHD. They were told that they had depression, and most people would just take antidepressants.

Tamsen Fadal (19:06): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (19:07): But then you feel even worse because what you're doing isn't working.

Tamsen Fadal (19:10): Because that's not the right solution for ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (19:12): It's not the right solution.

Tamsen Fadal (19:13): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (19:13): So this is the PHQ-9. This is the self-assessment tool that they will give you at your GP, um, to see if you have depression. So, um, feeling down, (laughs)

Tamsen Fadal (19:25): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (19:25): Feeling a little bit sad.

Tamsen Fadal (19:26): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (19:26): Like, if you have ADHD and your life isn't working out, you will answer that as, as, you know, many days, more than half days. Poor appetite or overeating.

Tamsen Fadal (19:36): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (19:36): I feel like all of our clients fall into one of those categories. Um, trouble concentrating on things. (laughs)

Tamsen Fadal (19:43): That should be number one.

Shanna Pearson (19:44): Yeah. Feeling bad about yourself. So remember, there's only nine questions on this, and already... So, okay, being fidgety or restless, that you have to keep moving around, little interest in or pleasure in doing things. Probably, probably 30% of our clients, when they come to us, and they've try- and they're- they have ADHD, and they can't figure out what to do when.

Tamsen Fadal (20:08): Right.

Shanna Pearson (20:08): And then they're doing something, and it's not working for them, and they get so frustrated, and they just- they lose interest. And so of the PHQ-9, there are eight of the nine questions that women with ADHD would respond either a one, two, or two or three to.

Tamsen Fadal (20:26): Well, yeah. So how do you know whether or not it's anxiety, depression, or ADHD, or both?

Shanna Pearson (20:32): I think it's a really important thing to talk about because the ADHD (laughs) self-assessment that they give you in your doctor's office hits a lot of the productivity, but it doesn't hit the overwhelm. It doesn't hit the extreme levels of, of feeling so stuck that you can't even move.

Tamsen Fadal (20:49): And that's ADHD.

Shanna Pearson (20:50): And that's, and that's ADHD for women.

Tamsen Fadal (20:52): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (20:52): So even the ADHD self-assessment tools, they're, they're, they're made for... Mostly, it's for men.

Tamsen Fadal (20:57): Now, is this the ADHD- is this how you screen for ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (20:59): This is how you screen for ADHD. It's much more in depth, but it's-

Tamsen Fadal (21:02): If somebody wants to be screened for ADHD, wh- where do they need to go? Is it a doctor, is it a coach?

Shanna Pearson (21:07): You need to go to your doctor, and then after they give you the initial assessment, you need to go to an ADHD specialist because they're the ones that know about the deeper... Most of them know. Not everyone knows, though, like, but they'll know about the deeper, the, really, the deeper overwhelm. So-

Tamsen Fadal (21:21): And is that a doctor, or is that a coach?

Shanna Pearson (21:23): That would be a doctor.

Tamsen Fadal (21:24): A specialist, okay.

Shanna Pearson (21:24): Yeah, that would be a doctor. But, you know, the ADHD self-assessment is, you know, trouble keeping your attention on certain things. Um, you misplace things. Like, it's a lot of the surface.

Tamsen Fadal (21:34): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (21:35): It's a lot of the stuff that people, you know, joke around about-

Tamsen Fadal (21:38): Of course

Shanna Pearson (21:38): ... for ADHD, but it doesn't talk about the emotional side, and I think that for women with ADHD, everything is emotional. Yeah.

Tamsen Fadal (21:45): Are you seeing more, uh, women being diagnosed with ADHD than you ever have before?

Shanna Pearson (21:49): Yes.

Tamsen Fadal (21:50): How so?

Shanna Pearson (21:50): Yeah, thankfully. Um, a lot- Like, I would say when I first started doing this work, a lot of the people that came to us, the adults, 'cause we only work with adults, um, they came to us because their kids were diagnosed. And they're like, "Oh, he was- My, my son was diagnosed, and I just realized that I'm very similar to this." Or, you know, like, they, they s- they figured out, like, where their kid got it from, and so that was, that was why they would, they would be diagnosed. But now, thank goodness, because there's a lot more awareness, um, people are asking questions, and I think it's really important. If your doctor diagnoses you, or if you feel anxious or, you know, depressed, but not... I don't mean like depression, depression-

Tamsen Fadal (22:30): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (22:30): ... where you feel like there's no point. I mean, sadness and difficulty, you know, concentrating. Like, those symptoms, you should also ask for an ADHD assessment proper and see where you fall on that scale, because otherwise, if you don't ask for it, it's unlikely you'll just get it. 'Cause right now, anxiety and depression self-assessments, they're li- they're, like, the default.

Tamsen Fadal (22:52): Mm-hmm, and that's what happens.

Shanna Pearson (22:53): So that's what you'll get, and they'll s- they'll mark you off as, you know, se- moderate to severe anxiety, moderate to severe depression, and here's your medication.

Tamsen Fadal (23:01): And then that's it.

Shanna Pearson (23:02): And... Yeah, and then you won't know.

Tamsen Fadal (23:03): What is happening inside an ADHD brain versus a neurotypical brain?

Shanna Pearson (23:08): Everything all at once. (laughs) That's really what it is. It's like the same things are happening, but there's no place to put anything. Even when you know you have to focus on this and not on that, even when you know that-

Tamsen Fadal (23:23): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (23:24): ... um, because we all know, again, we all know what to do, the thing that you're not supposed to be focusing on is always gonna seep in and kind of overtake everything else, and then you're just- you're not able to regulate.

Tamsen Fadal (23:35): So how do you regulate? If a, if a woman is listening to this right now and says, like, "Okay, I'll go to a specialist, I'll, I'll take the assessment, I'll figure that out, but gosh, I'd like to get through the end of this week-

Shanna Pearson (23:44): Right

Tamsen Fadal (23:44): ... 'cause I can't go make that doctor's appointment."

Shanna Pearson (23:46): Right.

Tamsen Fadal (23:46): "So what can I start doing today to regulate?"

Shanna Pearson (23:49): Something super easy that everyone can start doing, and I think this is (laughs) super helpful for me, um, number one, I'm a big believer in, in physical action. My whole coaching program is almost- I s- I say this in the book, but it's more akin to athletic coaching, even though it's not athletic- (laughs)

Tamsen Fadal (24:09): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (24:09): ... at all, um, than it is to, like, life coaching. 'Cause life coaching is like asking yourself, "Well, what should I do?" Or, "If I did know the answer, what would I do?" And for people with ADHD, we cannot know those answers because we have a million different answers-

Tamsen Fadal (24:21): Right

Shanna Pearson (24:22): ... based on how much sleep you got the night before, right? And, and it's always gonna change.

Tamsen Fadal (24:25): Is that true, it's all based on sleep?

Shanna Pearson (24:26): It's not just on sleep, but it c- it's based on everything outside of you. It could be based on what you ate for breakfast. It could be based on what the driver next to you yelled at you on the way to work. It could be based on how much sleep you got or just how you're feeling about yourself that day, but your answers within are going to change today from tomorrow.... from the next day. They're always gonna be different, and so people who have ADHD have to figure out, or I can tell you, um, how to do-

Tamsen Fadal (24:52): Please tell us

Shanna Pearson (24:52): ... things that go outside of, of you. So I love the action of writing by hand, not typing on your phone, 'cause that's-

Tamsen Fadal (25:02): Not asking Chat? (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (25:03): Not asking Chat. I mean, you know, there's, there's good things about that, too.

Tamsen Fadal (25:07): Of course.

Shanna Pearson (25:07): But, um, if you're in a, in a place, and you can't get out of it, I think something that's wonderful to do is just to th- purposefully think about a solution. Think about an explanation or a solution to whatever it is that you're upset about, and write it down with your non-dominant hand.

Tamsen Fadal (25:28): Wait, can you explain that? Say that again.

Shanna Pearson (25:30): So if I'm thinking about a solution to something like, or, or an explanation, like, you know, "That guy cut me off on the highway, and I can't get over it, because I feel like, you know, he disrespected me, and I always feel- I always feel disrespected, and even my family disrespected me," and so you just start, like (chuckles) going-

Tamsen Fadal (25:47): Spiraling

Shanna Pearson (25:48): ... and spiraling and spiraling. And so you, you know, you could just... Obviously, we're all logical people. We're not... You know, we're able to think things through, and you realize, well, you know, maybe one out of every, you know, 200 traffic incidents in, you know, in my week, y- somebody's, somebody's a jerk.

Tamsen Fadal (26:04): Right.

Shanna Pearson (26:04): So really it's just a numbers game. (chuckles) And so it was my time today to get some jerk to do, to do something. Um, so I would write down, you know, "It's just a numbers day- game. This is, like, the one out of 200 driver, uh, driver that did that, and, you know, and, and, and there's nothing wrong with it. It has nothing to do with me."

Tamsen Fadal (26:20): But you're, you're getting it out of you.

Shanna Pearson (26:22): You're getting it out, but here's the thing.

Tamsen Fadal (26:23): So it doesn't keep spiraling.

Shanna Pearson (26:24): It doesn't keep... But here's the thing. If you write it out with your non-dominant hand, so if I try writing with... I'm a righty, and if I-

Tamsen Fadal (26:31): Me, too

Shanna Pearson (26:31): ... write something down with my left hand, I have to focus so intently on every single letter that I'm writing, and it still looks horrible, right? Like, it's barely readable. But while I'm writing this, like, it's just... Even if I just wrote down, "It's just a numbers game," 'cause that makes sense to me, the way I-

Tamsen Fadal (26:51): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (26:51): ... think. Like, numbers, okay, fine, one out of 200. Okay, it's j- once I've done that with my non-dominant hand, I've slowed down purposefully enough that it's completely registered.

Tamsen Fadal (27:06): Wow.

Shanna Pearson (27:06): If I think about it, it just went boom.

Tamsen Fadal (27:08): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (27:09): It's like-

Tamsen Fadal (27:09): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (27:09): ... doesn't even exist.

Tamsen Fadal (27:10): But you are right about the focus. I mean, I think I always feel better, I think a lot of women feel so much better when they can... Like, even as silly as putting focus on your computer, you know-

Shanna Pearson (27:20): Yeah

Tamsen Fadal (27:20): ... for just a minute, so the text messages or, or whatever it is that's gonna disrupt your day. Um, so that's one solution. Are there some other solutions that you can give people listening that wanna just kind of regulate in the moment? Because we do have a lot coming at us, a lot more than we ever have before.

Shanna Pearson (27:35): We definitely do, and if it's just- if it's something where... I think something that's really helpful to do when there's so much coming at us, and there's- and at the same time, there's things that we have to do in a certain time-

Tamsen Fadal (27:49): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (27:49): ... um, a lot of us will start to do something and then drift over to the next thing, and then the next thing-

Tamsen Fadal (27:54): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (27:54): ... and then the next thing, and then you're down, like, some rabbit hole-

Tamsen Fadal (27:56): Right

Shanna Pearson (27:56): ... and it's, like, six hours later, and you didn't even touch what you were supposed to do. So I love this, um, and our clients love this, but if you write down the, the two things or the three things at the most, um, that you need to do this afternoon.

Tamsen Fadal (28:11): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (28:12): So you write down, boom, boom, boom, and then you draw with a very thick line, a box around it, and it has to be thick. (chuckles) 'Cause when it's just a thin-

Tamsen Fadal (28:20): Okay, a Sharpie?

Shanna Pearson (28:20): Yeah.

Tamsen Fadal (28:21): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (28:21): If it's just, like, a thin line, you could kind of, like, leave the box. But if it's a thick line, it visually shows you, like, this is an impenetrable wall-

Tamsen Fadal (28:29): Ah

Shanna Pearson (28:29): ... and this is what you're focusing on right now, and it's this and only this. And for some reason, the box and the walls, it creates a compartment, which, as I was saying before, we don't compartmentalize very well. And so we are purposefully creating visually, and mentally, a compartment, and so this is what I'm doing now, and this is all I'm doing, but the walls help a lot.

Tamsen Fadal (28:55): That is fascinating. I've never thought of that.

Shanna Pearson (28:57): It's amazing.

Tamsen Fadal (28:58): 'Cause I will make to-do lists till forever.

Shanna Pearson (29:00): Yeah.

Tamsen Fadal (29:00): And then I'm like, "Oh, here's another to-do list from last Wednesday-

Shanna Pearson (29:03): Exactly

Tamsen Fadal (29:03): ... that never got done."

Shanna Pearson (29:05): Right, it had, like, 50, 60 items on it.

Tamsen Fadal (29:07): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (29:07): That's why. Tamsen-

Tamsen Fadal (29:09): Drink water.

Shanna Pearson (29:09): No, but if you-

Tamsen Fadal (29:10): I know.

Shanna Pearson (29:10): No, but if you only-

Tamsen Fadal (29:11): You're right, though

Shanna Pearson (29:11): ... had three things, I would-

Tamsen Fadal (29:12): Right

Shanna Pearson (29:12): ... like, that's my saying, "Keep it to three, and you're free."

Tamsen Fadal (29:14): So three is a max.

Shanna Pearson (29:15): Three is a max. Take that to-

Tamsen Fadal (29:16): Why is three a max?

Shanna Pearson (29:17): 'Cause otherwise, the overwhelm just makes us want to escape, and we won't do anything, or we'll just do the least important things, 'cause they're the easiest for us to fall into.

Tamsen Fadal (29:27): (music) This show is sponsored by Midi Health. If you're in midlife, and you've ever felt dismissed, or talked over, or simply told just to deal with it when it comes to your health, you are far from alone. For years, women's serious midlife symptoms have been ignored or minimized. We've been handed vague answers, outdated treatments, or worse, nothing at all. And even now, 75% of women who seek care for perimenopause or menopause go entirely untreated. It is unbelievable to me. I know what it feels like, and I also know it doesn't- have to be this way. That's where Midi comes in. Midi is changing the experience of midlife health. They are a virtual clinic built by women's health experts, providing personalized, evidence-based care that's covered by insurance.

(30:14) That's right, Midi is the only women's telehealth platform of its kind that works with major insurance providers to deliver the care you deserve. You'll meet face-to-face with a trained clinician who actually listens to you. They offer real solutions, from hormone therapy to weight management to lifestyle changes, that meet you where you are. This is not a one-size-fits-all care. This is your care for your second act. Ready to feel your best and write your second-act script? Visit joinmidi.com today to book your personalized, insurance-covered virtual visit. That's joinmidi.com. Midi, the care women deserve. (gentle music) Do you think ADHD impacts a woman's confidence?

Shanna Pearson (30:57): That's what it impacts (chuckles) like, first and foremost. You know, it impacts our self-esteem and our confidence, because, again, you've had ADHD since you were born, and most women have no idea that they had ADHD when they were kids, 'cause back in those days, like, they were not diagnosing girls.

Tamsen Fadal (31:16): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (31:17): So when you were a child, you felt like you were completely out of sync with other people, and you didn't know why, and that's the big thing is, like, "Why am I having a hard time getting along with people? Why do I not have as many friends as I, as, as I think I should have? Why do people, like, seem to be annoyed with me all the time?" And you're, like, this child, and you don't know why, and nobody around you knows why, and your brain is wired completely differently, and nobody knows it. So you grew up like that. You grew up feeling like the square peg trying to fit into a round hole, and you never could, and it affects your confidence. It affects everything.

Tamsen Fadal (31:55): Why do you think we start to see it, or we start to believe we see it, in perimenopause and menopause years?

Shanna Pearson (32:00): It's because of the estrogen, and the estrogen, you- we, we start- our estrogen lowers naturally, and because of that, we have even less dopamine available in our brain, and that's really what ADHD... Like, a, a big part of ADHD is just not having as much dopamine available. And so you now have less dopamine available to a woman who already has less dopamine (chuckles) -

Tamsen Fadal (32:27): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (32:27): ... available to her brain. So now it's like you're doubling down. You, you need systems.

Tamsen Fadal (32:31): Are there- is there enough research? Is there research out there? Is there enough of it out there for... Because I think midlife has just been overlooked, and women are overlooked, especially women in, uh, perimenopause and menopause years. So where does ADHD come into that?

Shanna Pearson (32:44): I think that there needs to be so much more research. Like, the fact that the anxiety self-assessment scales and the sel- and the depression self-assessment scales have so much overlap with ADHD, and nobody's talking about it yet, is mind-blowing to me. It's mind-blowing, because this is a completely different fix than to help a person who has d- depression, actually, or, or anxiety, and a lot of people with ADHD have both.

Tamsen Fadal (33:09): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (33:10): But they're only taking medication, or they're only focusing on the anxiety part or the depression part, instead of also helping, you know, helping themselves live their life with the ADHD. So they're never... It's- it makes things even worse, because it's not, it, they're not able to help themselves the way that they, the way that they could-

Tamsen Fadal (33:28): Right

Shanna Pearson (33:28): ... and the way that they deserve.

Tamsen Fadal (33:29): Do you have some good tools for women who are struggling in perimenopause? We're dealing with so much during this time, just trying to get the physical part right. Then there's the emotional part that comes into play, and then there's the relationship part that comes, and there's a lot of things that happen during this time. Are there a few good tools that you think make sense for women, especially during this time?

Shanna Pearson (33:47): Definitely. Um, there's so many. (chuckles) There's so many tools, but-

Tamsen Fadal (33:51): Can you give us maybe two of them?

Shanna Pearson (33:52): One of the best things that we can do, um, in this age range is, and I don't know how people are gonna feel about this, but to increase the amount of dopamine, and, you know, in our own ways, using physical state changes is super popular in our company. Our clients love it.

Tamsen Fadal (34:11): What's a physical state change?

Shanna Pearson (34:12): So you would probably understand it naturally, 'cause it's probably what you do anyway, you just don't know it. But when you're feeling, um, overwhelmed-

Tamsen Fadal (34:20): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (34:20): ... or you're feeling sad or just, like, down for any reason, you probably move your body naturally. Like, maybe you'll go for a walk-

Tamsen Fadal (34:27): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (34:28): ... or maybe you'll run or work out or whatever, but a lot of people don't do that. And when you- see, like, when... Your f- your states are, they're, they're all connected. So your mental state, your physical state, your emotional state, everything is connected, and the way that you change anything is by changing one of them, and the easiest one to change is your physical state. So even if it's- it doesn't have to be exercise. Even if it's something... This is a really- this is a scary one, but I love it. If you, like, eat a mint-

Tamsen Fadal (34:59): Okay

Shanna Pearson (34:59): ... and right after you eat this really strong mint, you then drink a really cold glass of water, that is a physical state change. You're gonna be like, "Whoa!" (chuckles) And your brain-

Tamsen Fadal (35:08): That simple

Shanna Pearson (35:09): ... is just like, boom, and then, and you're out of whatever you were in. You know, whatever state you were in that wasn't working for you, you've just woken up your brain. Obviously, if you go for a walk (chuckles) -

Tamsen Fadal (35:19): Of course

Shanna Pearson (35:19): ... or go outside-

Tamsen Fadal (35:20): Of course

Shanna Pearson (35:20): ... you can do all those, like, obvious ones. I believe in, like, music especially. But just going outside of your head is the best thing that we can do as women. Um, I, I have a saying, "The best way to get out of your head is to get into your body."

Tamsen Fadal (35:35): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (35:35): And it-

Tamsen Fadal (35:36): Very true

Shanna Pearson (35:37): ... it totally works. Um, and it works for productivity as well as mood management.

Tamsen Fadal (35:41): What do you think about social media with ADHD? Should you limit the use of that, or do you need to do something in a different way?

Shanna Pearson (35:50): I personally don't have social media, which is insane.

Tamsen Fadal (35:53): You don't have social media?

Shanna Pearson (35:54): Yeah.

Tamsen Fadal (35:55): You don't-

Shanna Pearson (35:55): It's, it's crazy.

Tamsen Fadal (35:56): Nothing?

Shanna Pearson (35:57): I have, I have profiles, but I don't go on them.

Tamsen Fadal (36:00): Why? Because it would be a time suck for you?

Shanna Pearson (36:02): It's like kryptonite.... for people with ADHD.

Tamsen Fadal (36:05): (gasps)

Shanna Pearson (36:05): It's so, um, (laughs) I can't-

Tamsen Fadal (36:08): Like I'm having a hot flash and ADHD. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (36:10): Like, I think social media is actually beautiful.

Tamsen Fadal (36:13): Yeah, I do.

Shanna Pearson (36:13): The fact that we can-

Tamsen Fadal (36:14): Share

Shanna Pearson (36:14): ... the fact that we can learn, and share, and, and be with each other no matter where we are, like, this, this is- it's incredible what we're able to do. It, it actually is. I'm- I believe in the idea of it, but I know myself. And so for me, it would be like if I were a recovering alcoholic and I went to sit in a bar. Like, it's not a good idea. (chuckles) Or if you're- if you've been trying to lose weight and get in shape, and then you sit yourself in a really great French bakery, (chuckles) like, just don't do it, you know?

Tamsen Fadal (36:43): What, what would it-

Shanna Pearson (36:43): So-

Tamsen Fadal (36:43): What does it cause you to do? Just, uh, lose track of time?

Shanna Pearson (36:46): Lose... I lose track of, of my day. Like, I just get lost in it because I'm really interested. (chuckles)

Tamsen Fadal (36:52): Is it a time thing? Is it a comparison thing? Is it a-

Shanna Pearson (36:55): I think for me, it's, it's-

Tamsen Fadal (36:57): ... a emotional thing? Not, not just for everybody-

Shanna Pearson (36:59): Yeah

Tamsen Fadal (37:00): ... uh, does it do all those things?

Shanna Pearson (37:00): I think for a lot of our clients, 'cause we talk about it, every client has, you know, is- has issues (chuckles) with their social media.

Tamsen Fadal (37:06): I'm sure.

Shanna Pearson (37:07): Um, comparison is, is really, it's a big one. I know that when I ask our clients, "I want you to, to, to rate how you feel after spending one hour on your social. How do you feel?"

Tamsen Fadal (37:26): What's the answer usually get?

Shanna Pearson (37:26): It's never good. It's never, "I feel awesome!

Tamsen Fadal (37:29): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (37:29): I feel like I can do anything. I feel energized."

Tamsen Fadal (37:32): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (37:32): It's always like... It's either a flat-

Tamsen Fadal (37:36): Right

Shanna Pearson (37:36): ... or depleted or-

Tamsen Fadal (37:39): Wow

Shanna Pearson (37:39): ... sad.

Tamsen Fadal (37:40): I mean, I know what social media does, but I would also think that, like, your brain can only process a lot quickly, so you're-

Shanna Pearson (37:46): Oh, yeah, you're done-

Tamsen Fadal (37:46): You know

Shanna Pearson (37:46): ... in, like, five minutes.

Tamsen Fadal (37:47): Yeah, I-

Shanna Pearson (37:47): You've gotten everybody's stories, but-

Tamsen Fadal (37:48): I read all of Google. You know, I, I just, I feel like-

Shanna Pearson (37:51): If you've got incredible discipline, which a lot of people do-

Tamsen Fadal (37:54): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (37:54): ... um, you know, limit your time. Give yourself a 20-minute time- time yourself for 20 minutes, and that's when you get your fix.

Tamsen Fadal (38:00): Yep.

Shanna Pearson (38:00): Um, if you know that that doesn't tend to work for you, then, like, that's, that's something like, I can't do that. I'm... You know, I just, I just get sucked into people's stories.

Tamsen Fadal (38:11): How does undiagnosed ADHD impact partnerships and parenting?

Shanna Pearson (38:15): So this book, interestingly enough, um, I've already known of three men, which is so funny 'cause it's not a lot. I mean, the book hasn't come out yet.

Tamsen Fadal (38:23): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (38:23): So these are all advanced readers, right, who have read it because of their wives, and-

Tamsen Fadal (38:29): Because their wife is going through something.

Shanna Pearson (38:30): Because their wife is going through something, and they don't know what to do. And so, you know, I'll be like, "You have to read this book. Just read it," (chuckles) you know? Um, and it gives them all of this insight. I think in terms of if you have ADHD, your partner needs to know. And we have had clients who've kept this a secret from their partner because there's so much stigma, or there used to be stigma. I don't know if there still is.

Tamsen Fadal (38:52): Is there a shame associated with it?

Shanna Pearson (38:54): Yeah, because if they're- especially if you're somebody who always wants to be perfect-

Tamsen Fadal (38:58): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (38:58): ... now you're telling somebody who you've- you're spending your life with, that you're not perfect, that there's something going on with you that's not, you know, that's not amazing, and that's a hard thing. Because now their husbands, especially if they're going through peren- perimenopause now or menopause, their husbands are at their wits' end.

Tamsen Fadal (39:17): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (39:17): And so... And I'm just saying this, like, for women who have ADHD and their husbands. There are plenty of men (chuckles) who have-

Tamsen Fadal (39:24): Right

Shanna Pearson (39:24): ... ADHD, and their wives don't know.

Tamsen Fadal (39:25): Right.

Shanna Pearson (39:26): So it's- it works both ways, but just to stick with the women, um, the people in your life need to know in order to understand you and in order to not blame you.

Tamsen Fadal (39:37): If someone's going through that, and their partner becomes fru- gets frustrated with them, and maybe they do, or they don't, or they don't know they have it, how do you, how do you deal with that as a... How do you teach a partner to deal with somebody who has ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (39:48): Give them the book. (chuckles)

Tamsen Fadal (39:49): Okay. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (39:50): The book has all of the inner-

Tamsen Fadal (39:52): Okay

Shanna Pearson (39:52): ... explains our emotional reality, which is so much bigger than the, "I can't manage my time, and it's hard for me to be organized."

Tamsen Fadal (40:03): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (40:03): Like, that's surface. The emotional reality is everything. It's how we feel all the time. And so when people get that, like, we... In my coaching program, we invite partners to, to participate every, you know, month and a half or so, like, just so, just so everyone's on the same page. The amount of understanding that the partners have changes- I feel like that changes just as much as the coaching changes the, the ADHD person because them understanding what's going on is a game changer.

Tamsen Fadal (40:31): So does ADHD impact relationships?

Shanna Pearson (40:34): 100%, in such a big way. Because when you have ADHD, and you're overwhelmed all the time, and you're forgetting everything, and you've always got this... You know, you, you have such a hard time managing your emotions, and you lash out, or you impulsively do something that your, that your partner wasn't in alignment with. So there's the impulsivity, there's the emotion, there's a forgetfulness. There's so many things that impact relationships that, you know, if, if your partner doesn't know you have ADHD, you're gonna, you're gonna be faulted.

Tamsen Fadal (41:04): Is there a solution for that, to, to help you and also help a partner that's, that's standing by your side through, through a lot of this?

Shanna Pearson (41:14): Totally.

Tamsen Fadal (41:14): Is there something that somebody can do to, like, really focus?

Shanna Pearson (41:17): Yes. Yeah, these are like... This is also, like, w- what I was, what I'm writing about. It's, you know, there's communication strategies, and being able, as an ADHD person, being able to listen to your partner is very challenging. It's all- it's challenging to listen because you've got this, you've got this dialogue that's so loud going through your head all the time. How can you possibly listen to somebody else? Well, I mean, you are, like, amazing at it, (chuckles) but not everyone is.

Tamsen Fadal (41:45): Thank you for that.

Shanna Pearson (41:45): And so, you know, just being able to actually zone in on your partner and hearing what they have to say, whether it's a man or a woman, it doesn't matter. You just have to hear them and know what they're saying and know what you are saying to them. Know, like, commit to the one thing. Don't make too many commitments. (chuckles)

Tamsen Fadal (42:02): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (42:03): Commit to one thing that you said you were gonna do. Write it down.... put a big wall, a big box around it.

Tamsen Fadal (42:08): Put a wall around it.

Shanna Pearson (42:08): Oh.

Tamsen Fadal (42:08): Just, just one thing there.

Shanna Pearson (42:10): Just that. And, and that's what I'm gonna do, and make it visual, and then you can- it's much easier to stick to your commitments, because that's a, that's a big one, is when we break commitments.

Tamsen Fadal (42:18): It's a big one, to break commitments.

Shanna Pearson (42:20): Huge. It- 'cause when you're doing it constantly, um, and your partner doesn't know that you're, that your brain is wired differently, like, actually is, ah, then they're just gonna think that you don't care. "You don't care," or, "I don't matter enough to you," or, "Are you just lazy?" Or there's so many things, so many things that we'll hear.

Tamsen Fadal (42:40): What is a good morning routine for somebody with ADHD? Because I feel like we want, we want everyone's day to kind of get started, and I think when you have too many of these, ah, self-care things, you get nothing done, right? Like, I, I feel like sometimes all the wellness things can make you feel unwell-

Shanna Pearson (42:55): Yes

Tamsen Fadal (42:55): ... if you don't, you know, if you have a brain like that, or, or just really anybody. So what is a good morning routine for somebody with ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (43:02): I love, um, I love mo- this, this thing that I call mood scheduling, which is ... It's- it works for a lot of us. Um, and it's really the opposite of what a lot of morning routines are. 'Cause a lot of morning routines are about centering and grounding (laughs) and, like, and doing all the things we're supposed to be doing. When you have an everything all at once right now brain, it's also a good idea to know, um, when your most productive times are. So for a lot of us, it's, it's actually at the beginning of the day, and so that's the part of the day or the time of the day that we're doing a lot of self-care.

Tamsen Fadal (43:38): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (43:38): However, (chuckles) for a woman with ADHD, it's also a really good idea to knock out one of your, like, h- higher, I guess, like, I would say, like, not high priority, but one of your tougher tasks at the beginning of the day when your brain is most on. So if the beginning of the day is a good time for you and according to your circadian rhythm, 'cause it's not like that for everyone, but if it is, you want to knock something out earlier rather than later, and maybe do the self-care after that.

Tamsen Fadal (44:08): Are women with ADHD or suspect they have ADHD doubted because a lot of people think that they have it right now or because it's being talked about quite a bit?

Shanna Pearson (44:17): I don't think so. I don't think they're doubted that they have ADHD if they've actually been diagnosed. I hear a lot of people saying, "I feel so ADHD," and that's a big one, and it, it kind of... To be honest, I mean, I just jokingly, it's good for business, okay-

Tamsen Fadal (44:33): Sure

Shanna Pearson (44:33): ... when, when the whole world thinks that they have (chuckles) ADHD.

Tamsen Fadal (44:35): Of course. (chuckles) Of course.

Shanna Pearson (44:36): But the fact is, a lot of people who feel like they have ADHD don't have ADHD. Um, some of them definitely do, and they just feel like they're really, you know, scattered, or it's a very chaotic time. The people that are saying this are also lightening the ADHD because they're just saying, like, "I'm so all over the place, and I'm super forgetful." But it minimizes the emotional part of what ADHD is, which is, I feel... W- it's the biggest part. It's the biggest part. It's h- it literally takes us out. We can't move. We're paralyzed. Um, we feel like, it's like the, you know, you're, you know, a house, like a house deck of cards, and everything is, like, stacked so perfectly, and any second, the whole thing is just gonna-

Tamsen Fadal (45:17): Mm

Shanna Pearson (45:17): ... fall apart. That's how we feel every moment of the day, and we're just on the surface.

Tamsen Fadal (45:23): We're just holding it all up.

Shanna Pearson (45:24): Yeah, and, and it's not about, "I can't be on time." It's so much heavier than that, and I feel like, really, people need to understand that and not minimize it, and-

Tamsen Fadal (45:35): I-

Shanna Pearson (45:35): If people say they have ADHD, it's not light. It's not, like, a light and fluffy thing, and it... I also want to say it is certainly not a superpower. It's not.

Tamsen Fadal (45:44): I wanted to ask you about that. I know I've heard a lot of people say that ADHD is a superpower.

Shanna Pearson (45:49): Yeah.

Tamsen Fadal (45:50): There are some positives to ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (45:52): For sure. The hyperfocus, um, if you're hyperfocused on the right things, that's an amazing thing to be able to do, is that you can just stay glued into whatever you're doing if you enjoy doing it. It's, it's no problem for us.

Tamsen Fadal (46:06): What are some of the other positives?

Shanna Pearson (46:08): ADHD-specific, ah, we tend to, as a group, be, you know, a little bit more enthusiastic and open to trying new things. It's been said that we tend to think more outside the box.

Tamsen Fadal (46:20): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (46:21): Between (chuckles) between you and I, I, I feel like our clients are, are both sides of- are on every spectrum of the creativity spectrum. I have a lot of clients who are super creative and think way outside the box. I have clients that are very, like... They're like, you know, bookkeepers and accountants, and numbers are their game. (chuckles)

Tamsen Fadal (46:39): Right.

Shanna Pearson (46:39): And they're, and they're not thinking outside the box, which is, which is great for them. They don't want to be outside the box. They-

Tamsen Fadal (46:44): We can't just say it's this, this is the-

Shanna Pearson (46:46): It's not

Tamsen Fadal (46:46): ... diagnosis of somebody with ADHD, and they're all like this.

Shanna Pearson (46:49): Honestly, the positives, in my opinion, are that we're very good at hyperfocusing when we're interested in something, and that can carry you pretty far in life if you, if you find yourself in something that you love.

Tamsen Fadal (47:00): You wrote a chapter in, ah, Invisible ADHD titled "ADHD Medication Management: Pills Don't Teach Skills." How do you feel about medication?

Shanna Pearson (47:09): I think medication is a lifesaver, ah, for, for many people, and I have nothing bad to say about medication at all. That said, you have to make sure (chuckles) you're on the correct medication because there's a lot of different medications for ADHD. And I also have noticed a lot of our clients come to us on these dosages that are extremely high.

Tamsen Fadal (47:31): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (47:32): And I'm sensitive to that because when I was first diagnosed with ADHD, I was put on a medium, low-medium dose of, of a common medication, and I thought I was about to lose my mind.

Tamsen Fadal (47:42): Because why?

Shanna Pearson (47:43): I don't know.

Tamsen Fadal (47:44): What-

Shanna Pearson (47:44): I was just like (chuckles) I couldn't do anything. I was... I- I mention it in my book. I, I was so focused on the most irrelevant things. And so it's interesting because the ADHD medication, when it's a stimulant, which most of them are, it does help you focus. It does.

Tamsen Fadal (48:02): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (48:03): ... that's a good thing.

Tamsen Fadal (48:05): Can you-

Shanna Pearson (48:05): It doesn't help you focus on the right things, though.

Tamsen Fadal (48:07): Oh, it just helps you focus.

Shanna Pearson (48:09): It just helps you focus.

Tamsen Fadal (48:09): You need your, you need your box. What is your box called? The wall?

Shanna Pearson (48:12): I- well, I just call it break it into boxes-

Tamsen Fadal (48:13): Okay

Shanna Pearson (48:13): ... where you take things and you put it in a very thick-walled box.

Tamsen Fadal (48:16): Right. Right, right.

Shanna Pearson (48:16): But, you know, if you can focus, it's great, but if you're focused on your Twitter feed for six hours straight-

Tamsen Fadal (48:21): Yep

Shanna Pearson (48:21): ... it's not great. And so you have to then have the tools-

Tamsen Fadal (48:25): Um

Shanna Pearson (48:25): ... and the skills.

Tamsen Fadal (48:25): Exercise, meditation, routines, are those all essential if you're diagnosed with ADHD, or you think you might have ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (48:33): I feel, uh, routines, definitely. I think you need to have, like, categories and, and times to do things so that you don't fall into a billion rabbit holes.

Tamsen Fadal (48:42): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (48:42): Um, I, I personally am a huge believer in physical activity. It makes me feel amazing. And meditation is something I am horrible at. When... I, I wrote about it in my book, about my-

Tamsen Fadal (48:54): I'm, I'm with you.

Shanna Pearson (48:55): -this random-

Tamsen Fadal (48:55): I tried

Shanna Pearson (48:55): ... trip to India, and I was, like, trying so hard to learn how to meditate, and I just... I was terrible at it. But I, um, I did a lot of hiking, and that's what I guess they call moving meditation.

Tamsen Fadal (49:08): Good.

Shanna Pearson (49:08): And that was my thing.

Tamsen Fadal (49:09): Good.

Shanna Pearson (49:09): I was, like, running and climbing and moving, and my mind would just quiet.

Tamsen Fadal (49:14): Why invisible ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (49:15): There's two reasons why invisible. Number one, the female, ah, symptoms of ADHD are not noticeable. They're just- they're a lot less noticeable. You can't see... You can see when a, a person is, like, fidgeting nonstop or, or, like, unable to make eye contact and, like, like, just, like-

Tamsen Fadal (49:34): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (49:34): ... constantly distracted by everything around them. You can see that, but a woman who's overwhelmed and is just sitting there, like, daydreaming, you can't see it. So our symptoms are invisible. We tend to feel invisible because we're living in a world that's wired for neurotypical people, and we're not, and we can't tell (chuckles) whether... you know, what's wrong with us or we can't-- we don't know what's wrong with us. And so the symptoms are invisible, but we're invisible. Like, the amount of women, especially with these, um, self-assessment diagnoses, that are living with this-

Tamsen Fadal (50:13): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (50:13): ... wiring of a brain and have no idea, we're invisible, women with ADHD. And I hope, I hope (chuckles) you know, in, in the next few years, we can, we can bring a lot of light to it. And really, people need to get the help that they need to get because it is... Like, this is my whole thing, and after working and, and managing this co- our coaching company for so many years, I know for a fact that the right skills totally turn people's lives around.

Tamsen Fadal (50:43): What are those right skills?

Shanna Pearson (50:44): Like-

Tamsen Fadal (50:44): Are those routines?

Shanna Pearson (50:45): The routines, a lot of the tools that I put in here, but they're not all gonna work for everyone, but some of them definitely will. But just there's ways to slow down your brain so that you're able to focus on what you need to focus on, whatever that happens to be. There's ways to slow down. It's really, you know, just controlling your runaway brain, right?

Tamsen Fadal (51:03): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (51:03): There's ways to be able to communicate in ways where you can tell that you understand what they're saying, and they can tell that, that they, they can understand what you are saying, and so it's much, much more understanding rather than constantly feeling misunderstood, which is a big thing for people who have ADHD.

Tamsen Fadal (51:20): If there's somebody listening right now that says, "That, that's what I feel like that-

Shanna Pearson (51:25): Mm.

Tamsen Fadal (51:25): -I feel like everything she's saying," what should they do?

Shanna Pearson (51:28): adhdcoaching.com (chuckles) will, will help you. However, I wanted- I want to say, and this is super obvious, you have to get this book. You have to, because nobody's gonna be- nobody's gonna read the book and not get anything out of it. Like, that's impossible. So-

Tamsen Fadal (51:42): Should you go to a therapist or a doctor to get diagnosed?

Shanna Pearson (51:44): You can get a doctor to diagnose you properly. Don't... Uh, the self-assessment questionnaires, if you even are able to have the ADHD self-assessment questionnaire, that'll help you know whether you should go get a real diagnosis, and if that's the case, please go to an ADHD specialist.

Tamsen Fadal (52:02): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (52:02): And somebody hopefully who understands women's (chuckles) ADHD because it shows up so differently than men's, which is why, you know, the ADHD self-assessment even is very productivity-based, and it's not very emotional-based. But know- just know that you need to go to a specialist and f- figure out what's going on with you.

Tamsen Fadal (52:19): We asked on social media for some questions for you, and we got flooded with questions.

Shanna Pearson (52:24): Oh, my goodness!

Tamsen Fadal (52:24): So I just... I know. I just want to read a few of them.

Shanna Pearson (52:26): Let's do it.

Tamsen Fadal (52:26): Um, this is from Instagram. Jenny asks, "What is a reset, refocus tool I can try? No meds, no pills, just a mental tool."

Shanna Pearson (52:33): There's so many mental tools. Um, uh, to get back on track, please try a physical state change. So just get off your butt, because a lot of us are doing everything that we need to do sitting-

Tamsen Fadal (52:44): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (52:44): ... either at a computer or on our phone. Stand up, put on your favorite song, whatever it happens to be in that moment, (chuckles) and just, like, move around to that song and get back onto whatever you were doing.

Tamsen Fadal (52:54): Meg from Instagram: "I was diagnosed with ADHD before perimenopause. I do play the game daily. Is it ADHD or menopause?"

Shanna Pearson (53:02): Mm.

Tamsen Fadal (53:02): "I take both HRT and ADHD meds. I'm doing better on both. Some days are tough, and sometimes it's hard to tell if it's menopause or if it's ADHD at this point." I think that's a question a lot of women have.

Shanna Pearson (53:14): So many... Because it's really- it's, it's almost the same thing. It's- if your dopamine... If your estrogen is lower and your dopamine is lower, that is the- it's almost like women in menopause are like, are like a w- I, I don't want to say are like a woman with ADHD before menopause because they have lower dopamine. Like, a woman in menopause is gonna have less dopamine, right? That's kind of like how women with ADHD feel all the time.

Tamsen Fadal (53:39): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (53:39): That's what we're dealing with all the time. Um, but I don't want to, like, m- say that it's the same, 'cause it's not the same. But whether it's ADHD or menopause, if you're treating both-... then you don't, then it- then you need, that's what you need to do, then she's doing it. She's treating both of them, and then why does it matter if it's this or that, if you're treating them both? If you, if you still feel like you're super disorganized, or you're having a hard time regulating your emotions, tools and methods, including some of the things that we just spoke about today, are gonna help you regardless of whether it's ADHD or menopause.

Tamsen Fadal (54:14): So it doesn't matter if it's ADHD or menopause, if you're getting help for both, now you have to figure out those reset tools.

Shanna Pearson (54:20): Exactly. The reset tools will work regardless of your diagnosis.

Tamsen Fadal (54:24): Sarah says, "Why can I plan everything perfectly but never follow through? Is that ADHD?"

Shanna Pearson (54:30): It could be ADHD, that is for sure. That's a big one. Planning is easy, following through is the more overwhelming part.

Tamsen Fadal (54:36): It is.

Shanna Pearson (54:36): And you don't necessarily know exactly what to do when, and that's where you get stuck.

Tamsen Fadal (54:42): I think what you've said that's really, that's really hitting home for me is that everything seems urgent.

Shanna Pearson (54:47): Yes.

Tamsen Fadal (54:48): Everything seems like it hap- needed to happen yesterday.

Shanna Pearson (54:50): Exactly, or last week-

Tamsen Fadal (54:52): Or-

Shanna Pearson (54:52): ... or like you're behind no matter what.

Tamsen Fadal (54:53): You're behind. I'm always behind.

Shanna Pearson (54:54): You're always behind!

Tamsen Fadal (54:55): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (54:55): Yeah, and you're constantly running, and it's like, it's literally the quicksand dream-

Tamsen Fadal (54:59): Can you tell people-

Shanna Pearson (54:59): ... where you can't get out of the quicksand

Tamsen Fadal (55:00): -they're not always behind?

Shanna Pearson (55:01): Oh, my gosh, you are- they're... Where's the end goal? Like, where are you trying to get to? That's a big one. That's something that everyone should write down. Like, what am I behind on exactly? Why do I feel like I'm running behind? Where am I going?

Tamsen Fadal (55:15): Oh, (laughing) that's so true. That's so true!

Shanna Pearson (55:17): 'Cause we get caught up in all of the shoulds.

Tamsen Fadal (55:19): We're running in place to refocus.

Shanna Pearson (55:20): Like, where are we going, anyway? Do you know where we're going? I don't know where we're going. (laughing) Do you? Okay, well, maybe we should stop and get a smoothie. I don't know. (laughing)

Tamsen Fadal (55:27): Or keep running.

Shanna Pearson (55:28): Yeah.

Tamsen Fadal (55:29): Shanna, you're not on social media, so we're gonna give you some rapid fire-

Shanna Pearson (55:32): Do it

Tamsen Fadal (55:32): ... that we see a lot on social media, okay?

Shanna Pearson (55:34): Good. Bring it on.

Tamsen Fadal (55:35): ADHD medication fixes everything.

Shanna Pearson (55:38): No, it helps you focus. It doesn't help you focus on the right things.

Tamsen Fadal (55:42): If your mom has ADHD, you probably do, too.

Shanna Pearson (55:44): Not necessarily, but somebody in your family closely related to you might have it.

Tamsen Fadal (55:49): Genetic.

Shanna Pearson (55:50): Yes.

Tamsen Fadal (55:51): Everyone that has ADHD is lazy and unmotivated.

Shanna Pearson (55:55): Definitely not.

Tamsen Fadal (55:57): ADHD is caused by too much screen time.

Shanna Pearson (56:00): No. ADHD is something you are born with.

Tamsen Fadal (56:03): ADHD is a superpower, you just have to unlock it.

Shanna Pearson (56:06): I don't believe ADHD is a superpower. I believe it's extremely hard when people have ADHD.

Tamsen Fadal (56:11): But there are some positives?

Shanna Pearson (56:12): The positives are hyperfocus. That's an amazing thing to be able to do.

Tamsen Fadal (56:16): People with ADHD are more sensitive to rejection.

Shanna Pearson (56:19): Yes. In general, we are definitely more sensitive to rejection. It takes over all of us.

Tamsen Fadal (56:24): How long, and how do you get rid of it?

Shanna Pearson (56:25): You have to be a lot more objective and get out of your... try to get out of your head and look at what's happening objectively rather than subjectively.

Tamsen Fadal (56:33): People with ADHD often interrupt others.

Shanna Pearson (56:35): Yes. The volume in our own mind of what we're wanting to say is extremely loud.

Tamsen Fadal (56:41): People with ADHD always procrastinate.

Shanna Pearson (56:43): We do not always procrastinate, but we do tend to procrastinate because of the overwhelm.

Tamsen Fadal (56:48): People with ADHD have hard time making decisions.

Shanna Pearson (56:51): Yes, 'cause every option is awesome (laughing) or horrible.

Tamsen Fadal (56:55): (laughing) Oh my-

Shanna Pearson (56:55): Like, everything! (laughing)

Tamsen Fadal (56:57): Like, you just diagnosed me.

Shanna Pearson (57:00): (laughing) Yeah.

Tamsen Fadal (57:01): If you can hyperfocus, you can't have ADHD.

Shanna Pearson (57:04): Incorrect.

Tamsen Fadal (57:04): Women with ADHD are more likely to struggle in relationships.

Shanna Pearson (57:08): Yes, absolutely. Divorce rate is higher for women who have ADHD.

Tamsen Fadal (57:11): Is that women and men, or whoever has it, or what-

Shanna Pearson (57:14): It's, it's women and men. We have a har- uh, there's so many reasons why we have a hard time in relationships, just because of emotional regulation, communication, but also commitment. It's tough, 'cause the grass is really always greener, 'cause you're constantly looking at every option.

Tamsen Fadal (57:28): You don't need a diagnosis, just self-awareness.

Shanna Pearson (57:32): I believe a diagnosis is very helpful.

Tamsen Fadal (57:34): If you were successful in school, you don't have ADHD.

Shanna Pearson (57:37): Incorrect. We've had so many clients be told by their doctors they don't have ADHD, when in fact they do, just because they were doing well in school.

Tamsen Fadal (57:44): Everyone has a little ADHD, it's just modern life.

Shanna Pearson (57:48): Incorrect. ADHD is not chaos or disorganization. It's, it's a lifelong condition.

Tamsen Fadal (57:54): Planners don't work for people with ADHD.

Shanna Pearson (57:57): Incorrect. Planners are great. (laughing)

Tamsen Fadal (58:00): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (58:00): I love planners, if you use it.

Tamsen Fadal (58:02): You need to make a planner.

Shanna Pearson (58:04): Yeah.

Tamsen Fadal (58:04): Oh, Shanna, thank you so much.

Shanna Pearson (58:05): You're so welcome.

Tamsen Fadal (58:06): This was wonderful.

Shanna Pearson (58:06): This was super fun.

Tamsen Fadal (58:07): If you're walking away from this episode thinking, "Wait a minute, that totally sounds like me," you're not alone, you're not broken, and you're not lazy. You're most likely underserved, misunderstood, and overdue for support. If this conversation helped you out, share it with a friend, subscribe, follow, leave us a review, and follow us on social @thetamsenshow. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover, my email's in the show notes. Thank you for being here, and I'll see you next Wednesday. So today's episode is sponsored by Midi Health. If you are ready to feel your best and write your second-act script, visit joinmidi.com today to book your personalized, insurance-covered virtual visit. That's joinmidi.com. Midi, the care that women deserve. (upbeat music)

Transcribed from the episode audio.