Invisible ADHD, Women, and Directive Coaching

On Health Coach Radio, the podcast of the Primal Health Coach Institute, Erin Power talks with Shanna Pearson, founder of Expert ADHD Coaching and author of Invisible ADHD, about how ADHD shows up in women and why it so often goes unnoticed.

Erin trains health coaches, so much of the conversation is about coaching: why Shanna’s coaches tell clients what to do instead of asking them for the answers, and how a coach can tell when a client’s ADHD is beyond their scope.

In this episode

• Why the publisher asked for a book for women, Shanna’s own diagnosis as an adult, and what it feels like to live with ADHD before you know you have it
• What the “invisible” in Invisible ADHD means, and why the usual ADHD assessment misses the emotional symptoms most women have
• A brain that can’t compartmentalize, and why the question that matters for a diagnosis is whether you’ve had the symptoms your whole life
• Trouble making decisions, why Shanna doesn’t believe ADHD is a superpower, and why client-led coaching struggles when your answers change by the minute
• Directive coaching: telling clients what to do, accountability, closing browser tabs together on the call, and rehearsing what to say at a family dinner
• When ADHD is beyond a coach’s scope, short to-do lists, piggybacking a new habit on an old one, and a client inviting her family over for a holiday dinner for the first time

Episode links

• The episode page on primalhealthcoach.com, with show notes and the audio player
• The video on YouTube, titled “The Hidden Signs of ADHD in Women and How to Fix Them,” with chapter times
• Apple Podcasts and Spotify, for the audio episode

Transcript

This transcript follows the video above. Times are minutes and seconds into it. The video and the audio episode are the same recording, so the times match both.

Erin Power (0:00): (instrumental music) Okay, Shanna. Well, I'm really delighted to be here with you. You are an expert in ADHD in women and, uh, you know, I- y- am I, (laughs) am I accurate so far?

Shanna Pearson (0:12): Well, it's also men. (laughs) The... I wrote a book specifically, uh, they asked me to write it specifically for women. Um, I actually asked if we could write it for both men and women because in my coaching practice we, we help men and women equally. So but, but yeah, I'm, I'm an expert in both.

Erin Power (0:28): Well, why did they ask you to write a book specifically for women?

Shanna Pearson (0:30): Great question. (laughs) I have no idea, but I think it wa- they were saying that, you know, there's nothing, there's not a lot out there, you know, specifically regarding women and ADHD, and I think there's a lot of misnomers around women and ADHD. Um, so that's what they were interested in. You know, when you, when you look into it, there's actually quite a bit out there for women and ADHD now, thank goodness. Um, but yeah, they just... I, I, I wanted to write for both men and women because it's, it's, you know, it's, it's important for (laughs) both genders. Um, but yeah, so I'm happy to r- I'm, I'm happy that I wrote the book. I'm happy it's able to help women.

(1:07) The book is also able to help men too, though, so it's got our coaching stuff in it.

Erin Power (1:11): Yeah. It seems to me that you are probably a- an industry leader in ADHD coaching and knowledge, and I'm... The reason I'm excited to chat with you is 'cause I know, I personally know very little about ADHD. I, I think a lot, I think there's a lot of prot- like, misunderstanding about it. So let's just kick off like every podcast does, and just give us the, the sort of the history of you and your background in this expertise.

Shanna Pearson (1:37): Um, well, I had no idea I had ADHD until I was in my 30s. (laughs) So my, my, my background is just living, uh, with ADHD. Uh, my background first is living with ADHD, not having any idea I had it, which is the situation for almost all women in, in our generation. Um, you know, trying to figure it out myself, but then once I did, (laughs) I was able at the, at the time when I, when I knew, when I was diagnosed with ADHD, I was actually working, um, as a, a program designer for a coaching program, and I was not a coach at the time. Um, but it was, it was a nonprofit job, and they wanted me to design a health and wellness (laughs) coaching program, which I'm not an expert in.

(2:25) That's, uh, I just want to say that. But the program, um, it was for, it was for a, a bunch of career counselors across the province of Ontario. It was for over 2,000 individuals, and it ended up being a really great program and it, and it worked, and people were hitting goals and, you know, doing s- you know, exercising and, like, fitness things and dietary and whatnot on their lunch breaks, and getting their teams together, and it became, like, a cohesive work environment where they were. And everything was, was going well, um, for them, and that was when I was also diagnosed with ADHD. So it was sort of the background of, of, of where I, you know, how I got to this was, I guess like a lot of, a lot of things was, was accidental.

(3:07) Um, I just wanted to eventually, when I was diagnosed, I just really, I had a, a very strong need to transfer my skills of learning how, you know, I knew how to get people from point A to point B, um, and to transfer that into, I guess just a population that I really loved and got, understood on a deep level. Um, yeah. So I just, you know, I just started from scratch in that way.

Erin Power (3:32): Gotcha.

Shanna Pearson (3:33): I didn't set out to be a coach. (laughs)

Erin Power (3:35): Y- well, uh, you know, a lot, I don't think a lot of us did. A lot of, uh, m- many coaches just ha- m- many coaches have their, uh, their own awakening or awareness of, of some underlying thing, and that's really what, what pushed us all into it. What, what is it like, though, if you c- I mean, uh, when we think about our origin story, when we come through these conditions and struggles, personally for me, like, as an example, mine was prediabetes, right? So I came... My, my origin story is prediabetes. And I will never forget what it feels like to be prediabetic. I will never forget, even though I resolved it. So I'm just curious, what does it feel like to be undiagnosed ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (4:13): Okay, so this is such a good question, and I love that you compared it to being prediabetic. You are no longer, correct? Like, like definitely you are, you are in e- you look like, you sound like you are in excellent health. Um, I have ADHD, and, and I have it every single day. And, and the only difference between now and before is now I know how to manage it. Um, however, I still, I definitely still struggle, um, with just living with ADHD. And, you know, it's a completely different universe when you, you, you know what the problem is versus not knowing at all what's, what's quote unquote wrong with you, right? So that's the difference.

(4:54) But, um, but I still have ADHD. You know what I mean? And, and, and anyone who has ADHD still al- is always gonna have it no matter how amazing they are at managing it. And, um, I feel like not being diagnosed with it for so long was...

(5:11) I, I, was, was, it was so difficult for so many years that it gave me a very deep, um, emotional understanding of, of the pain that, that so many of our clients live with and regardless of whether we know it or not. I think that's, I guess, if you wanna call it, like, you know, the blessing or the gift of, um, of having lived through that is, you know, there's no pain that I hear about day to day from coming from our clients or prospects or people that are just interested. There's nothing that I don't emotionally connect with. Like, I really get it. I really get where every single one of these people (laughs) are coming from.

(5:50) And I, that's actually why I wrote this book because there's a lot of people that, um, I said, "Yeah." Like the publisher came to me, and I'm running this coaching company and it's, it's, it's quite large and, and we have a lot going on, and they wanted me to write this book and I didn't... It, it's a lot of work, but I wanted to because- There's so much pain, and there's a lot of people that just can't afford coaching, right? And that, I think for so many years, that's what breaks my heart, is like the amount of people that come to us for help, that desperately need our help, and we just can't... We- well, like they, they just can't afford it, and, and I can't...

(6:26) You know, our rates are as low as they can possibly be 'cause I have to pay my coaches. (laughs) You know, so I don't have any control over that. Um, but what I did have control over is putting everything I know into, into a book that people can just buy as- (laughs) from Amazon and is much more affordable. Um, that's what I was able to do. So I just really wanted to help.

Erin Power (6:45): Amazing, amazing. The book is called Invisible ADHD.

Shanna Pearson (6:50): Yeah.

Erin Power (6:51): What... Take- invisible. Where- what does that mean?

Shanna Pearson (6:53): Because, because it, it is for women. They wanted me to write this book for women, and for women, the, the symptoms of ADHD are not noticeable. And so there's a few things. Like number one, the symptoms are very... They're completely internal. So when you think of ADHD, a lot of people still, even, even now at late- like late 2025, or they're, they're still thinking of like the super obvious, visible, annoying character traits of like, you know, little kids, little boys usually, you know, running around a classroom and causing havoc and just like being really, um, impulsive and disruptive and, quote-unquote, "annoying." (laughs) So they're the ones that everyone notices, right? And they're the ones that get in trouble and, you know, go to the principal's office and all of that good stuff.

(7:39) Um, and girls almost always go under the radar, and they are not noticed. They're usually quite quiet, but completely, you know, nonstop, very loud, um, activity going on in their mind all the time that keeps them very distracted and paralyzed. (laughs) So, so it's not noticeable. It is invisible, but also on the flip, the word invisible is because a lot of women and girls, um, just don't get noticed. It just... They just don't get noticed or a lot of them are even, most of them actually, were misdiagnosed with something else completely and, um, and so not just our, is the ADHD symptoms, not only are, is that invisible, but the person is like invisible. They're not, they're not being helped, so they're not being treated.

(8:31) They're not-

Erin Power (8:32): Interesting

Shanna Pearson (8:32): ... they're just stuck. They're stuck.

Erin Power (8:34): So is it that... I'm gonna try not to get on my feminist soapbox here, but is it that-

Shanna Pearson (8:40): No, you can do it.

Erin Power (8:40): (laughs) Is it that it's like-

Shanna Pearson (8:42): 'Cause there's a lot of that.

Erin Power (8:44): Right. Oh, it's hormones, or is it that way?

Shanna Pearson (8:47): Mm. For sure.

Erin Power (8:48): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (8:49): 100%. And, you know, it's like that time of month or she's just crazy or she's just overly emotional or, um, like name it, 'cause it's, it's very emotional. It's all... Like almost all of the symptoms for women are emotional, even if it's just like being completely paralyzed and not knowing what to do next, and that's like, you know, and they're, they just feel like paralyzed. Um, and it's... It, it, there is that. There is also the fact that like so many, even now, like the, the ADHD official, you know, even if you're gonna say, "Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you a test for ADHD. It won't be for depression. It won't be for anxiety.

(9:26) Let's go on, let's focus on ADHD." Even that assessment is very focused on the male traits, which is mostly executive functioning. It doesn't touch, even the ADHD assessment right now that they give you at the doctor's office doesn't touch on the emotional side, which is almost all of the women's symptoms.

Erin Power (9:48): Right. Okay. Cool, cool. This is where I wanted to go. So like I, 'cause I was gonna ask, what are the signs of, of ADHD that show up in women? Like potentially they get mislabeled as burnout or mood, um, or, or, you know. What are they? Like w- what are a few of them?

Shanna Pearson (10:03): Um, I would say just very up and down emotions because we have, um... There's nowhere to put an emotion. So here's, here's like the number one thing that everyone needs to know about ADHD, is that a person who has ADHD, male or female, we have a brain that's not able to compartmentalize. So that's it. So if you think about it, you know, if, if you have a brain that w- that doesn't have any compartments (laughs) to put anything in and it's all going on at like at the same time, same place, same moment as, as everything else, your emotions are gonna do exactly the same thing, and so you just feel everything. It's not like, "Oh, I feel pissed off about that, so I'm just gonna like, I'm gonna like file that for later, and I'll just get pissed off about that when I, you know, after work." (laughs) Right?

(10:49) It's just, it's just always all the time. And so for women, it's a lot of, it's a lot of just like not being, you know, kind of c- be- just being stuck inside of our minds. Like just really being trapped inside of an emotion, catastrophic thinking, um, just, you know, extreme overwhelm to the point of, like, I call it the deer caught in headlights syndrome, where you're just like frozen and paralyzed. Uh, a constant, you know, almost like a magnetism towards drama, which is interesting and is very female specific because that's the only... It's like this unconscious need to create stimulus, right? So we need the stimulus. That's a whole other segue, but, (laughs) but drama is, is, is a very, it's almost calming.

(11:40) It's almost calming for our brain. And so you have the emotion, you have the overwhelm, you have the, you know, impulsivity, um, and just like a need for like, you kind of feel balanced in places where it's a little bit like, you know, higher frequency.

Erin Power (11:54): Oh my goodness. When you were talking about compartments-

Shanna Pearson (11:59): Are you thinking about like four people you know right now that it's like, "Oh my God, I have to like talk to them about this"? (laughs) So-

Erin Power (12:06): One of, one of my dearest, one of my dearest friends is diagnosed ADHD and is checking-

Shanna Pearson (12:12): Do you see those traits in your friend, what I just mentioned? Yeah.

Erin Power (12:16): Specifically the feeling everything. That was really interesting to me. But I, I never thought to think of that from the perspective of compartmentalizing or compartments. And, and so then-

Shanna Pearson (12:27): No one talks about it that way, but that's really what it is, and that's... and, and once you understand that, you, you can... everything makes sense. Even, even procrastination makes sense. You know? Like, disorganization, time management, like, all of it makes sense when you understand our inability to compartmentalize.

Erin Power (12:43): Now, I wanna ask this question, but I, I wanna make sure I don't sound like maybe some... I don't wanna sound disrespectful or like... I am a noob, so I, I, I've accepted my noob status on this, right? But just on the off chance that you hear this a lot, okay? Just on the off chance, I wanna preface this by saying I don't mean to sound whatever, dismissive. But, you know, it's things like an ADHD trait is having 75 tabs open on your browser. Well, I have 75 tabs open on my browser, you know, and I'm easily distracted, and I procrastinate. But maybe that's because life is distracting and overly busy. You know, there... like, there are some lifestyle inputs that just kind of seem ADHD.

(13:20) So then the screening, because I would say I can compartmental- compartmentalize my emotions 100%. I can do that. So then right out the gate it's like, is that sort of the nuance that we're talking about here? Like, you kinda have to have a certain s- cluster of symptoms that coexist to get the diagnosis, or are there-

Shanna Pearson (13:36): Yeah. So here's the thing, because, like, you know, at this time of the, of our world, it's almost like how can you not, you know, exhibit these symptoms? How can you not be overwhelmed? There's, like, a billion things in, like, every category happening for all of us. The, the way, the way to know, honestly, and, and this is what they'll ask you at any doctor's office, is, "Have you had these symptoms for your entire life?"

Erin Power (13:58): Ah.

Shanna Pearson (13:59): Not just now as an adult, as, like, somebody with, like, you know, a billion different responsibilities. But was this you as a kid?

Erin Power (14:05): Right. Before you got your iPhone, were you like this? (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (14:08): Yeah. (laughs) Basically. You know. Well, like, like, um, uh, my... the doctor that finally diagnosed me correctly wanted to see all of my report cards.

Erin Power (14:17): Oh. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (14:18): And randomly my mother had them. (laughs) But, you know, and since kindergarten it was, like, the same comments, which was really funny. You know, like, "She's always, like, basically spaced out, (laughs) not paying attention, interrupting." Like, I would ask, like, the wrong question at the wrong time 'cause I really didn't really... I wasn't paying attention to what was going on around me. Um, but it was, it was definitely a pattern since the age of, you know, since they were tracking me, like, five.

Erin Power (14:45): Oh, that's so interesting. Okay. A lot of... I'm really getting to know my friend here now on a different level. (laughs) You mentioned, you mentioned though that, like, traditionally the diagnosis of this was more oriented toward the, the male expression of symptoms. H- Is there... Has the diag- Has the diagnostic questionnaire, h- has it improved? Is there now one specific for f- There's not.

Shanna Pearson (15:08): No. You have to go to a doctor who actually knows about this, which there are. You know, they exist. Um, otherwise you will be filling out a questionnaire designed, you know, just around the, the topic of executive functioning. You know, like, going from point A to point B, organization, time management, all of that, without hitting on the internal struggles that, that really, that's, like, the number one thing for women.

Erin Power (15:30): Okay. Now, as somebody who has a coaching practice in this realm, have you created a questionnaire that's more comprehensive?

Shanna Pearson (15:38): I, yeah. Well, we always ask, you know, what, what peop- what, what are, you know, the, the peoples, like, that are coming to us, like, what their internal reality is, their relationships, their communication, (laughs) you know, like, where, where they're struggling the most. And, and even when people come because they're, you know, having a hard time being on time, like, the most, you know, surface. I call those surface issues 'cause, like, you know, we don't really care if our legacy involves the fact that we were on time. You know? We don't, like, at the end of, you know, at our funerals we want people to say, you know, "She was so organized." (laughs) Like, like, it's not really a big...

(16:17) It is a big deal, but it's not a big deal. It's a big deal because of who it affects, right? So, like, y- you know, in terms of your communication skills and in terms of, like, how you are with your partner or your kids or your friends or, you know, things like that. What's your internal reality? How do you feel? Are you anxious all the time? Are you terrified? Are you, are you, you know, always living with imposter syndrome? If you... You know, for the people that are successful, especially women, it's a, it's, it's, like, literally almost 100% of the time, "I don't deserve to be here." You know? And, and those are things that we are constantly talking to our clients about because it's, it's, it's like everybody experiences this.

(16:55) We're all, we're all in the same c- we're all in the same boat.

Erin Power (16:58): Yeah. Yeah. It, that, that, that does make it somewhat nebulous because, you know, f- uh, just let's pull the thread of this, like, I don't deserve to be here imposter syndrome. Potentially something that a lot of women simply feel just because of, I'm just gesturing generally to the (laughs) state of the world. Like, um, but so, so, like, I, I wanna get a little bit more into the behaviors or sym- So you've named a few. So anxious, terrified, imposter syndrome, this freeze, the freeze kind of version of, uh, I guess overwhelm.

Shanna Pearson (17:31): Yeah, paralyzed. Like, just paralyzed and overwhelmed.

Erin Power (17:34): Yeah. What else? What else do people present with?

Shanna Pearson (17:37): Um, just a very hard time making decisions is, is incredibly common because, again, we're... Like, if you have nowhere to put any, you know, one idea, and it's really hard to follow through on anything because it's all getting mixed up in, like, this, whatever, like, smoothie that's in your brain, (laughs) right? Then, like, how on earth are you gonna make a decision? Because there's always these other, you know, paths that you can go on constantly, and, like, you're making decisions, and then you're making a... Once you do make a decision, you're making a decision about your decision, and you're second-guessing that decision because it could also be that. So if you... It's, like, everything is just, like, wide open, and there's nowhere for anything to actually settle, and so that's a very, it's a very big problem, especially for women in leadership positions.

(18:25) Right? And so if you're, if you're constantly struggling with decision-making, it's very hard to move forward 'cause every, you know, every day of your life you have, like, s- how many decisions do we make in a day? And, like, if you're stuck in half of them, it's, you're stuck, period.

Erin Power (18:41): What, um, advantages does somebody with ADHD have?

Shanna Pearson (18:44): The only advantage (laughs) in my opinion, um, because I don't, I'm one of the p- I'm one of maybe the few, I'm not sure, but I'm definitely a person who does not believe that ADHD is in any way a superpower. There's, it kind of got this label, you know, a little while ago, uh, like maybe 10 years ago, where it's like, "You've got this superpower," 'cause we're supposed to make people feel good about the fact that they have ADHD. Um, but honestly, in my experience, it makes people feel worse because th- they don't feel good, and then they're really failing with a superpower. And if you have a superpower and you're still failing, that's really bad.

(19:18) So I, I don't think it's a superpower. I don't think there's a lot that's great about having ADHD. Um, there is, you know, we h- we do have, we have a talent to get completely zoned into things and hyper-focus. Um, and that can be an amazing, amazing thing, where you're just, like, glued and nothing can come in, and just, like, you know, you're, you're, like, in the stimulus zone and, and, and everything is just, like, all about that one thing that you're doing. And that said, it's, it's also not a great thing to be able to hyper-focus so well because, you know, there's a lot of things that you miss and there's a lot of things that you don't make it to because you're still zoned into that, that thing that you were doing.

(19:59) So not to be negative, 'cause I'm not a negative person, but I don't think there's a ton of positives around ADHD, but there's a ton of positives around any individual, okay, regardless of an ADHD diagnosis. And so when you learn to manage your ADHD, like, that's when all of your positives get, like, highlighted and you can actually present yourself to the world the way you, you deserve to be presented, and w- you can do exactly what you wanna do.

Erin Power (20:26): I actually really appreciate that perspective. I really like it that you're taking this, "ADHD is my superpower," to task.

Shanna Pearson (20:34): Ugh, yeah. (laughs)

Erin Power (20:37): Yeah. Like, it's a, it's pretty, it's a pretty, uh, bold line in the sand.

Shanna Pearson (20:40): I think so, and, and it's completely true. You know, it's just, it's just true. AD- ADHD is not a superpower. I'm sorry. But if you think it is and you have ADHD, um, the chances are that it's not the ADHD that's the superpower, it's you, period. It's your soul. It's your li- it's you. It's your attitude. It's your, it's your way of being. It's not the ADHD that's the superpower.

Erin Power (21:04): Got you. And also too, like, that sort of cheerleadering, "It's your superpower," it might, it might prevent somebody from take- m- making moves to learn how to manage it. Do you know what I mean? Like, that, that could almost keep s- keep somebody stuck.

Shanna Pearson (21:18): I think it does. I think it does. I, we have, we have a lot of people, um, we, (laughs) we have a lot of people who come too late because they were trying to make the best out of, out of this diagnosis and, and they thought, and/or they were caught up in a, you know, in a, in a spiral. I don't know what, you know, social media, you know, where they were getting their feeds from or whatever. But they really expected it to be awesome, and when it's not, they're not gonna get help because they just have to figure out how to make it more awesome. And the truth is it's just, you know, straight up it's not awesome.

(21:55) Let's figure out how to, how to, how to manage it, just like how you would teach a child to ride a bike. Like, this is definitely doable, okay? Period, end of story, and then you can be awesome, and even more awesome than you already are because right now you're still awesome.

Erin Power (22:09): Right. So the question I wanna ask isn't a good question, so I'm gonna start framing it as well as I can. The question I want to ask is, "So how do we manage ADHD?" (laughs) That's not a good question. So let me just kind of flesh it out a little bit because, I mean, you mentioned that, you know, the, the pain and the desperation that, that folks feel once they recognize this in themselves and they, they want to come to you for coaching. Not everybody, uh, that's not available to everybody. Um, but inside your coaching program, your protocol, your method, i- is there a universal approach or is it very, very personalized or some kind of hybrid of the two?

Shanna Pearson (22:43): Okay. So I'm gonna say this to you because you're a coach and, and you understand the world of coaching. So there is no universal approach, number one. Um, number two, there are coaching academies that specialize in ADHD coaching, and I don't know... I used to think that those academies would just give us coaches. Like, they train the coaches and then, because, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of coaches who are incredible coaches that just don't, um, they're not amazing at getting their own clients because it's a totally different skill set, right? And so and it has nothing to do with who they are or whether they're smart or not because these people can be geniuses.

(23:29) They're just not great at client acquisition. Okay, fine. So, so that, like, we hire coaches and we train them and we give them clients, and there's, like, zero strings attached. We just want them to be amazing coaches and kick our clients' butts, right? And so then there's these coaching academies that specialize in ADHD, and so I'm like, "This is a dream come true. We can just hire those coaches that are already trained." But, um, but their approach to managing ADHD isn't, um, it's, it wouldn't work for our clients and, and I'm assuming a lot of people with ADHD because it's very life coach-y based in the r- in, in the way of, um, in the way of teaching people that the client is really their best expert and never tell the client what to do ever because that's very anti-coaching.

(24:19) And, um, and so, and I get that. I understand that if you have, like, the ability to find those answers, like, you should be, you know, the master of your own destiny, right? (laughs) Like, we should have these answers within. However, when you have ADHD, it doesn't work like that because your answers change by the minute.

(24:41) By the minute. And so your answer, if you have ADHD, which you don't (chuckles) but if you did, and, and like I asked you a question about how something feels for you, or if you did know, what would you do? You would give me an answer today that would be... And if you have ADHD, it would be completely different than the answer you give me in three hours if you ate something that made you not feel so well, or if somebody said something mean to you, or you didn't get a text back from somebody that you were expecting to text you back right away, or like any kind of emotional hit is gonna affect how you answer your own questions.

(25:17) So that's a problem when, when you're coaching people, um, and you expect them to have all of this internal wisdom, it's really hard. It's not gonna work very well for, for a person with ADHD. So it's not a one-size-fits-all approach. It's what we do. Our coaching methodology is so individualized. It's a very odd business model because you can't scale it in that way. You just can't. It's just not like that. We're not gonna productize what we do. It's impossible. And so, yeah. And, and so, you know, there's- and there are other, you know, places that do ADHD coach training and such, but it's... I don't think it's very- I don't think it's the best way to go about it.

Erin Power (26:02): Okay. So this is so interesting. And now, see, now my wheels are turning 'cause some of the cl-

Shanna Pearson (26:08): I know, right? No, this was a big, this is a big, this was a big, um, learning for me as well 'cause-

Erin Power (26:14): I can only imagine. But, you know, one of the things I do wanna make sure we drive the conversation because this is where my, my head is kind of going ahead is, is thinking like I work with women in my coaching program. Uh, whatever percentage of women are undiagnosed ADHD, do you have statistics on that?

Shanna Pearson (26:28): Well, it's, it's changing. It's definitely changing. Yeah. So I don't know how many are like right now. I know there's so much noise right now for women in ADHD, um, that hopefully a lot more are getting properly diagnosed, but it's still less than men being diagnosed. Because women tend to be misdiagnosed with anxiety or depression first because those are the, those are the, you know, the, the ob- you know, when you tell your doctor you're feeling this, that, and the other thing, they're gonna give you, uh, an assessment for d- anxiety or depression. That's like the, the normal way to go before they do ADHD.

Erin Power (27:02): Yeah. So the r- so, you know, I'm working with women, and I have a, I have a very traditional coaching background. Motivational interviewing, let's just zero in on that, for example. Motivational interviewing is about connecting your clients to their intrinsic motivators, and theoretically, a person should have a solid grasp on what intrinsically motivates them, but not the ADHD.

Shanna Pearson (27:23): No. That would be really hard. That's interesting that you say that, because if you ask me what my... If you ask me about my intrinsic motivation, I don't know if I could answer that. I don't know if- where I would even go with that.

Erin Power (27:35): Yeah. So it's like why, why is this important to you?

Shanna Pearson (27:37): And yet I'm a very motivated person. (chuckles) Like...

Erin Power (27:40): Yeah. Yeah. The whole idea of like, well, why is that important to you? Like, why, why, why is this the most important thing for us to focus on? That could change on a dime.

Shanna Pearson (27:47): Yeah. I wouldn't even-- Even today, being in the position that I'm in and having, you know, this, like doing what I do, that would be a really tough place for me to go. I don't know what I would say. I would ramble for an hour.

Erin Power (28:00): Another... So I'm just, I'm just running through like another common coaching question c- to, to your point, 'cause you framed this up really great. In traditional coaching models, it's client-led. Client-led. So I might say, "What do you think the g- the, the gap is here? What do you think the weak link is here?" I might throw that to a client thinking I'm empowering the client into their own solution or decision-making.

Shanna Pearson (28:21): And you very well are. Like, you might be 100% unless it's, you know, someone like me.

Erin Power (28:26): Right. So this is, this is why my wheels are turning, 'cause in my roster of 40 clients, midlife women, what if 20 of them have ADHD, and I'm asking them to tap into their intrinsic motivations and tell me what they think a- and maybe I'm guiding them incorrect. You know, this is making me really think.

Shanna Pearson (28:43): Uh-oh. No, no, no. Okay, so don't, don't second-guess yourself because listen, if you (chuckles) if your, if your clients, like this is not your first rodeo, okay? You've had like a lot of clients over many, you know, over a long time. If your clients are doing well, then what are you- then what you're doing is working. Okay. Now, out of 40 clients, the chances are that, you know, two or three would be maybe diagnosed, like let's say 5 to 10% at the most, so maybe two to four, right? Would be, would be maybe like officially diagnosed with ADHD, not 20. 50%. No. (chuckles) But, but like l- like... And, and you know what? To be honest, those two to four individuals might be having a hard time coming up with their intrinsic motivators, but it's not 20.

(29:31) Yeah. Now, you're gonna go into your client roster and be like, "Who's failing?" (chuckles) Like...

Erin Power (29:38): I'm gonna- I'm adding this to my intake form. Like, have you- do you have an ADHD diagnosis? I mean, I don't know. Bec- because this is, this is very interesting to me because in addition to hosting this podcast, I'm also a health coach educator at a school that trains health coaches.

Shanna Pearson (29:51): Some of my favorite coaches in my company that we end up hiring are health coaches, are health coaches by training. So you should sen- like you should let me know if you have any amazing health coaches that wanna be ADHD coaches with us.

Erin Power (30:05): We have thousands. Well, I mean, so I f- I have thousands I can send your way. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (30:11): Oh my gosh, we're always hiring. I'm serious. Like, if you have incredible coaches, like legitimately, I'm, I'm totally serious, Erin. If you have like, oh my gosh, like this person is incredible, and they would be so happy working for a company who constantly feeds them clients so that they don't have to go out and get their own clients, 'cause that is a pain in the bum, then, you know, send them to me, for real, 100%.

Erin Power (30:32): You heard it here first, coaches. You heard it here f- you heard it here first, coaches

Shanna Pearson (30:36): Oh yeah, that's true. We're ... Yeah, hi coaches. (laughs)

Erin Power (30:40): Coaches, come ... It's adhdcoaching.com. Is that where they can go to track you down?

Shanna Pearson (30:45): That's where they can go. But they, they would, yeah, they would, they would ... What would they do? They would ... They can, they can, yeah, adhdcoaching.com, and they can go there, and there's an email address on that page, and they would say, you know, "I'm interested in applying for coaching position." You know, and they can even say, you know, "Heard Shanna on Erin's podcast," and then I can be in the background and, and actually know what's going on and take care of them.

Erin Power (31:09): Right. So then when you ... Like, just since we're on this topic, so if you bring coach- you need coaches obviously, 'cause, 'cause it sounds to me, it sounds to me like your ... I wanna make sure I'm interpreting this correctly. Your approach to coaching is extremely personalized, 'cause you mentioned it's sort of an unscalable model, but it's, it's, it has, it, it's just not, it's just in-

Shanna Pearson (31:26): It's, it's just very personalized. (laughs)

Erin Power (31:28): That's just how it's gonna be. And it almost sounds to me like it's more directive.

Shanna Pearson (31:33): Yes.

Erin Power (31:34): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (31:34): (laughs) Boom.

Erin Power (31:36): So you're actually telling the clients what to do.

Shanna Pearson (31:38): 100%. 100%. We, we actually have a, uh, coach opportunity page that we, when we're, you know, in a very, like when we're, like, hiring. Like, we are hi- we're ... First of all, we are always hiring coaches. But when we're like, "Oh my gosh, we need 10 new coaches," and we have to, like, put an ad out there, um, there's a video, and on the video it says, "'Cause sometimes people need to be told what to do." And I'm literally telling people that. Like, you have no problem to ... You, we are highly directive because sometimes people just need to be told what to do. And the truth is, with our clients, it's almost always the case.

(32:13) It's almost always the case. So yeah, you have to be so comfortable with that and almost relieved by it, 'cause, like, a lot of the applicants are like, "Oh my God, thank God. I really wanna, you know, I'm always wanting (laughs) I wanna tell people what to do." And, but obviously we train our coaches in, like, so hard, so hard that, yeah, we, they know what to do. The coaches know what to do to be able to tell the client what to do.

Erin Power (32:35): Amazing. Okay, that was my next question. So first of all, I, I am 100% with you. There's a lot of coaches who want to be a directive style coach. Like, the, the motivational interviewing client-led style isn't for every coach. That's fine. And so, so then coaches come in and you teach them, train them how to deliver your coaching.

Shanna Pearson (32:55): Program, methodology, all of it. Yeah. We train our coaches so (laughs) much. Like, there's, there's this like, there's an onboarding that, you know, it takes a few weeks, and then when we start to drip them clients, 'cause you can't just give a coach, like, 20 clients. They would wanna jump off a bridge, 'cause these are all ADHD clients. (laughs) So it would be really stressful. But when they start to get clients, then they join, you know, then they join our team training sessions, which are every week, and they still happen. Like, our coaches, my coaches that have been with me for over 10 years are still in the trainings. Like, it is so fun, 'cause when we all get to be together and troubleshoot and yeah.

(33:34) And so we're s- we're con- there's, the, the training doesn't end. The training doesn't end. Yeah. Just like for y- like, as a leader. Like, I'm the leader, you're the leader, right? Like, it doesn't e- Like, our growth and our learning never ends, and that's how it should always be.

Erin Power (33:48): That's amazing. I, I love, I love this model that you've built. I really, I, what I like so far about this conversation is that you are, you ha- like, your flag is planted firmly in the ground from the perspective of what you believe and what you know and believe about ADHD, and y- you're not afraid to go against the grain on ADHD, for example, the superpower thing. Strongly held conviction, but also you're not afraid to go against the grain on traditional coaching models, right?

Shanna Pearson (34:14): Right. Yeah. You just wanna do what works. Like, I'm here for ... Nobody goes into a business to help people with ADHD, um, to make money. (laughs) Like, it would be so dumb, 'cause this is not a market that's like, they, they're, like, losing their wallet all the ... You know what I mean? So this is truly an industry ... Like you s- a lot of people are, like, s- business savvy, and they're gonna help business executives and people who can, you know. But I wanna help people with ADHD because I really wanna help them, period, end of story. And so you have to do what works. You can't do some model that's, like, supposed to work for 95% of the population, uh, when it specifically doesn't work for, for, you know, our market.

Erin Power (34:53): Yeah. No, I like that. And, and being able to help, like, you know, ostensibly everybody with ADHD, um, including potentially high ... I know you have worked with some high-level executive teams and things like that.

Shanna Pearson (35:04): Oh, yeah, yeah.

Erin Power (35:06): Um, but, but also, you know, the everyperson. You wanna help everybody.

Shanna Pearson (35:09): The, the mom, (laughs) the, the single, you know, the, the 30-something-year-old, highly anxious, you know, young woman that just miraculously graduated. We have, like, you know, 18-year-olds that are in their first year of university, you know, whose parents obviously are paying for the coaching. But it's, it's ... We, we have coaches that work with every different s- you know, different coaches are able ... The, the beauty of that is it's not just me anymore. The beauty is that, like, we have coaches that are, like, specialists with, with our students. We have coaches that are specialists with our high, high, high-level executives. We ... You know, everyone's kind of got, like, an avatar, and we have a few coaches that are really great with everyone, but-

Erin Power (35:46): Okay. I love this

Shanna Pearson (35:47): ... not that many, but we do have a few.

Erin Power (35:49): This is amazing. This is an amazing model. Um, but I'm just thinking through-

Shanna Pearson (35:53): It's chaotic though, and it's not very scalable, so don't follow this. Like, this is bad business. (laughs) Like, don't ... Like, there's nothing scalable about this.

Erin Power (36:01): Yeah, fair enough. But, you know, it is very truly a passion project, and most coaches get into this because they are passionate about helping people. And so, you know, I, one of the, one of the things I get a little salty about is some of the, some of the messaging in the health coaching industry about, you know, um, attracting high-ticket clients and, you know, scaling to multiple six figures. And it's like, mm, oh, sure. Um, but, but also-

Shanna Pearson (36:26): It's yucky, right?

Erin Power (36:28): Kind, yeah. It's a, it can be a little disingenuous. I mean, I'm not, not to discourage anybody who's striving for that, right? I, I have a p- I have a peer who, uh, um, only works with people who are willing to, uh, willing to spend ... like her coaching package is $25,000, and she's like, "I'm looking for high-ticket, high-end ladies who have money to spend on-"

Shanna Pearson (36:47): Good for her. (laughs) That's great. Yeah, that's great.

Erin Power (36:50): Yeah, she gets, she gets six clients a year, you know, she's made a good living, whatever.

Shanna Pearson (36:54): She's happy. Yeah, that's awesome.

Erin Power (36:56): But, but many of us are drawn to this because we want to make a difference, and so, you know, we... I, I know that you're, you're being, you know, you're kind of joking or tongue in cheek, or being serious about the, the model here isn't scalable. It's not, it's not a get rich quick scheme. But it, that's fine because there's-

Shanna Pearson (37:10): That's why nobody else does this. (laughs) Nobody would do this because you'd have to be nuts. In my opinion, there's never, um, a quiet, not... You know, 'cause you're dealing with clients who have ADHD, so everything is urgent. Everything's an emergency, and you're dealing with a lot of coaches, you know, which you understand because that's what you do as well. So put that on top of, you know, thousands of clients who have ADHD, and it's, it's, it's, it's like you (laughs) you have to be nuts.

Erin Power (37:41): Juggling flaming bowling pins. Um, but I'm ... Okay, so I'm thinking about this again from bec- you know, I just thinking through, like, our audience listening here whom, many of whom might be really excited to come and, and apply to work with you. I, I wouldn't be surprised if you get tons of applications from this episode.

Shanna Pearson (37:57): That's crazy. I wasn't expecting this to, to go in that direction, but we would love that. Are you kidding me? Like, I, I want ... Are they trained by you? That's amazing. Uh, no, I'm serious. Like, if, if any, if, if anyone's listening and wants to apply, please put Erin's name in there so I know that you, I know you're her friend and that you're her student. (laughs)

Erin Power (38:15): Amazing. But let's ... Uh, I just wanna drive this conversation around to people like me, who are in private practice working with other people on other health concerns. So again, like, you know, my, my background is in metabolic health, so I'm working with women who are insulin resistant or pre-diabetic, and they're working on their food behaviors, and sleep, and movement, and lifestyle, and all these, you know, really generic health improvement stuff that people struggle with. And if we assume that two to, two, two or four of my clients in my roster, um, potentially have ADHD, I'm thinking through, obviously goal setting becomes a struggle because, because they're not able to necessarily anchor to a very solid intrinsic, uh, solid ground intrinsic motivation.

(38:55) So goal setting becomes a little bit difficult. I'm wondering too, like accountability-wise, uh, do these folks struggle with accountability or how does that shake out?

Shanna Pearson (39:05): Oh my God. (laughs) That's like, accountability is a game changer. They need that. They need that.

Erin Power (39:11): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (39:12): They need that. There's nobody who doesn't need that. It's a requirement. So you have to buddy them up, Erin. (laughs) Get them to like, get them in your, in your program. I mean, you probably already do this. I have no idea. But, um, have them, you know, buddy up and have an accountability partner.

Erin Power (39:29): Interesting. Okay. So then in your coaching program, accountability is a, is a massive factor.

Shanna Pearson (39:35): It's a huge part of it. It's huge.

Erin Power (39:37): Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense because if you have a directive coaching style, it's like, "Here's what you're going to do and here's how we're going to, you know, keep track of it," basically.

Shanna Pearson (39:46): Make sure you're doing it. (laughs) Yeah. Yeah.

Erin Power (39:49): And, and just-

Shanna Pearson (39:50): No, they are, they ... We are able, like I am, I am able to confidently say that, that a client will get results every ... A client will get results every session because number one, we do things on the spot with them, right? But, but also because we make sure, because they have to, they have to be accountable. They have to be moving forward, otherwise I don't sleep very well.

Erin Power (40:11): What would be an example of something that, like a directive or a task that you get a client to do?

Shanna Pearson (40:17): There's, there's like a gajillion things that they could do. If they're like a directive, like, it's like, okay, well, um, I have 50 billion tabs open on my computer, and I just don't know where to start on my projects, and I just don't ... You know, one of the things that we're gonna do on a coaching session is open your laptop. Go to your laptop. If it's ... Yeah, let's, let's go to those tabs right now. We're gonna take five minutes, (laughs) five minutes, and I'm setting a timer on my phone (laughs) and, and here's what we're gonna do, and in five minutes you will be astounded by how much we can accomplish. When you're doing it with someone else and you're doing it, you know, fast and furious, and it's enjoyable, and you're talking it through.

(40:55) And the beauty about how momentum works is honestly, they could close three tabs in those five minutes only at the very minimum, but they're gonna keep going because it's already started, and most of the time we're so stuck before we even start.

Erin Power (41:09): I love that. I love that. That is such a good example.

Shanna Pearson (41:12): Oh, cool.

Erin Power (41:13): No, I, I just wanna reflect that back because i- if the, if the client, for example, is stressed out about all the tabs open pertinent to this project, we're gonna set a timer. You're gonna basically click into every tab, look at it, and decide if it needs to stay open or closed, something like that.

Shanna Pearson (41:26): Yeah, and you and I will do it together. Okay, so what's the tab, stay or go? (laughs) You know? Like, what about this one, stay or go? Okay, keep it. You know, whatever. Okay, okay, whatever. Let's just go through like ... You can go through probably 50 in five minutes.

Erin Power (41:37): Yeah. Oh my gosh. Great example. And so then, so then-

Shanna Pearson (41:42): That's a very basic example. There's uh, there's, there's, there's so much more complicated things that we can do, like sending an email to that person that you've been struggling with, whether it's personal, or sending a text, whether it's personal, you know, your boyfriend or whatever. Just, you know, let's do this together. Because when you're stuck in your head because you're completely paralyzed and you don't know where to start because there's 50 billion op- you know, options of where to start, and you can't like, you can't figure it out on your own, and your coach is with you basically talking you through it. You know, "How does it feel to start here? Can we start over there?" "Yes." "Okay, let's do it." You know?

(42:19) And then we're doing it together. A really big thing gets to, gets to be completed or at least started, and that is just like such a, a game changer for our clients who have such a hard time getting started.

Erin Power (42:35): Yeah. Now what is the long tail of this? And by that I mean- Let's say you get, you get into the coaching conversation with your client and it's like, "Okay, we're gonna write this text message together, and you're gonna press send on this call," right?

Shanna Pearson (42:49): That's like the little... Yeah, for sure.

Erin Power (42:51): Yeah. But so what I'm wondering is, is this teaching th-... Is this imprinting in them some, some behavior that they can replicate in the future or, or-

Shanna Pearson (43:00): Of course

Erin Power (43:01): ... they-- Okay. So they don't have to do this for every decision in their life forever and ever.

Shanna Pearson (43:05): No, it's just, you know, like when you go to a gym and, and, and you start with a trainer and you're doing like, like the three-pound weights, (chuckles) and then eventually, you know, you're doing it every day and then you're going up to the five-pound weights, right? When a client, like our, our c- we, we are not in, in business to keep clients with us forever, right? We want people to, to do this on their own. But the only way, in my opinion, (chuckles) for an ADHDer to learn how to do anything that's actually gonna change their life is by doing it. Not by, you know, even though I wrote a book, so this is like, not by reading about it.

(43:44) It's not by reading about it. It's by doing it, and I actually say that in my book, like, "Don't just read about these things, please," 'cause it's so easy for us to do that, right? And so when you're doing these things regularly with your clients, and, and it goes way beyond tasks like get the text done or open your laptop and close the tabs. It's also communicating with your family during Christmas. You know, like now you're gonna be surrounded with all of these people that you have a, you know, some of them you have a really hard time with. Um, let's role play, okay? And let's like practice some things that you can actually say i- um, when, not if, you get triggered by your sibling or your parents or your, you know, name it, right?

(44:27) So this is what you're gonna say. Let's practice it, because if it's just in your head, it's not gonna come out of your mouth so easily over, over a Christmas dinner as if you're just like, you know, saying it with your coach, and you and I have said it now like 20 times together and we've had a good laugh about it. It's gonna come out of your mouth much more easily. So it's, it's also, you know, intrapersonal things, not just task management.

Erin Power (44:49): Right. And so then it is, so then it is skill development. Uh, that was kind of the orient- orientation of my question, which I know was a naive question, and I know it sounds naive for me to say, "Oh my gosh, are these ADHD people that they have to g- every time they have to close three tabs on their browser, are they coming into a coaching call 'cause they forgot how to do it last time?" But no-

Shanna Pearson (45:05): No

Erin Power (45:05): ... there is the learning. They, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (45:06): No, no, no, no, no, no, they're not i- they're not dumb. (chuckles) Like really smart. Yeah. No, but they didn't... Imagine if you're always stuck in this like, in this state of, "I just don't know what to do when," and then you practice honestly closing the tabs because like, "I don't actually need that. I opened that like three months ago. Why the heck is it still open?" You know, "What did I need to do with this anyway?" And, and, and, and you and I are practicing it together, then that whole week for sure, and especially because we have another part of our coaching program. Our coaching program isn't just on the spot doing actions. We also have, um, after the coaching session, at the end, we always give our clients like homework, you know, but we don't call it homework.

(45:49) But it's, it's just like one thing that they have to do that week. So it might be, you know, every day I need you to close one tab. That's it. Pick the tab you're gonna close that day, you know, and, and let me know what it was. But like it's also something they have to practice throughout the week, and once you've done that every day for an entire week after practicing it with you, with my coach on a session, it's gonna become part of your, your own little toolbox. Like you're gonna be able to do that on your own.

Erin Power (46:16): That's amazing. I appreciate this. This is amazing. This is a, an amazing model.

Shanna Pearson (46:21): I'm so happy. That's great.

Erin Power (46:23): It sounds very high touch, what we would call high touch, which is why you described it as being unscalable.

Shanna Pearson (46:27): Oh my gosh. That's ex- that, Erin, that's exactly what it is. It is high touch. Like in our, in our own little world, we're call- we call ourselves like the Ritz-Carlton of coaching, um, because it really is, and that's, that's exactly why it's not scalable. You can't hire just any coach to do this. Like you have to be like, you know, somebody who really gets it on a deep level, and it's no problem like holding people, not just like holding them accountable, but like holding them in a way of like you're hugging them. Like you're just, you just love them so much, you're not gonna let them go. You're not gonna let them fail, ever.

Erin Power (47:01): I really love this coaching model, I have to say. And I also, by the way, I'm really appreciative of you being patient with my, uh, noob questions because I, I can imagine-

Shanna Pearson (47:10): Oh, no, I love them. Are you kidding me? This is not, I, I, I hear these questions a lot because people don't really, you know, it's not, it's not the norm. It's just not.

Erin Power (47:18): Yeah, and I think about it from somebody that I love dearly in my life who's, who's diagnosed ADHD, has a lot of the, virtually every single example you've given here she presents with. And I don't understand. I don't understand. And, and so, you know, I can-- It's just helping me understand her a lot better, which is, which is good. Like to the point where I, I'm gonna definitely point her to your resources, but also I wanna learn more about them too. Which I, which brings me to my next question, which is how would a coach like me or anybody know (sighs) when their client's ADHD is like beyond their scope?

Shanna Pearson (47:55): You just, well, how do you know when a client's anything is beyond your scope? Because like sometimes we have clients who are beyond, we have clients who are, um, who have comorbid conditions, right? And they'll, which is so common, right? And they have extreme depression as well, and it is beyond our scope. And we just know that because it's not, they're so stuck in the depression, right? So if you're not a trained ADHD coach and a person is so severely ADHD that they literally cannot move forward at all with your coaching, you know it in the same way that, you know, we're not able to get people out of their depression and, and like so, so easily, or sometimes like you just need a different person to help.

(48:39) You need a different professional.

Erin Power (48:41): Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah, you're right. It's just like anything. If you're bumping up against getting the outcomes that maybe the pre- the predictable outcomes that you typically might get with a typical client, uh, then you... That would, that would be a little bit of a flag that might go up to say, "This person has something else going on," whether it's their mental health or their physical health or whatever it might be, where you would, you would refer out.

Shanna Pearson (49:00): Yeah, you refer out, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's a, it's, it's a beautiful gift, I think. I- that's how I see it. If I can refer somebody that has something else going on that's extremely severe and is not ADHD related, um, I feel lucky to be able to refer them out.

Erin Power (49:16): So, (sighs) I've been, I mean, I'm picking your brain for a long time here. (chuckles) Really appreciate the, again, the patience. But are, are there, like, tools that you use? I, I'm thinking through some of the, you know, the stuff that I've seen and heard around maybe, like, gamifying. Do we gamify these things? Is there, um...

Shanna Pearson (49:36): Gamifying is excellent. I love gamifying. Yeah, and it's, uh, it's really great for people who have ADHD because... I think gamifying is great for everybody. Come on. But, you know, especially for people with ADHD because it's got that extra, you know, energy jolt stimulus. Um, it's a little bit le- anything that's a little bit less boring or mundane, uh, is always, is always helpful.

Erin Power (49:58): Yeah. And what about, like, to-do lists? Are to-do lists pointless for somebody or, uh, with ADHD or useful?

Shanna Pearson (50:04): To-do lists can get very out of hand. Um, so for a person who has ADHD, my mantra, my motto, my mantra is keep it to three and you're free. 'Cause otherwise you have to-do lists that are 600 items long on many, many different pages, plus a bunch of whiteboards (chuckles) on the wall. And, and it's like this nonstop never-ending to-do list that literally just causes the overwhelm and the freeze, and nobody's moving forward on any of these items. And in fact, there's just more items being added to the to-do list, and it's just, it's, it's a recipe for disaster, and nobody feels good when their, when their to-do list keeps, like, getting bigger and bigger rather than smaller.

Erin Power (50:45): Ooh, that's... See, I, I definitely don't have ADHD 'cause I'm all about, like, the tiny to-do list. (chuckles) But-

Shanna Pearson (50:50): Yes

Erin Power (50:51): ... I'm thinking about my f- I'm thinking about my friend again, and shout out to Tash if she's listening. (chuckles) But anyway, one of her things, she, she loves to, she loves to learn. She loves to, she lo- she's so engaged with what everybody's doing, e-engaged with what everybody's doing. If she's having coffee with... It really is. If she's having coffee with somebody and the person says something interesting, she whips out her notebook and writes it down, this interesting thing a person said. Now, I don't know if she's ever, ever looked back at any one of these thousand notebooks that she's filled up over the years. But the act of writing it down feels important to her.

Shanna Pearson (51:23): I think that's cool. She should, she should self-publish that, all of it, you know, out of the mouths of my friends, (chuckles) and just have these, like, words of wisdom. And well, she's writing it down because, I mean, that's how she's locking it into her brain. Because she's also likely unconsciously afraid she's gonna forget what it was that was said, and so it's, it makes sense that she would write it down. It, it totally makes sense 'cause she wants to remember it.

Erin Power (51:49): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (51:50): Yeah. And even if she never rereads it, the act of writing it down helps embed it into her memory.

Erin Power (51:57): Yeah. Not to make this about her, but another one of her interesting characteristics is that every single one of her supplements has to be out on the counter, 'cause if it goes in a cupboard, she won't take, she won't know that they exist.

Shanna Pearson (52:07): 100%. We do that all the time with our clients. Take it out of the cupboard. Take it out of the cupboard. Put it on top of your coffee maker, because I know you're gonna go to that. Yeah, tie it to something that you always do. Put it, like, attach your toothbrush to it.

Erin Power (52:22): Oh, nice.

Shanna Pearson (52:23): We call that piggybacking. When you tie, when you tie any kind of, like, new habit that you tend to forget, you know, to an existing, very, you know, you know, deep, deeply embedded habit, you piggyback it together so that you remember to do the other thing that you might forget.

Erin Power (52:38): I love that. Cool. So I would love if you could, if, if you have one off the top of your head, I'd love for, if you could share a before and after story that captures what can change for a person when their ADHD is finally supported correctly.

Shanna Pearson (52:53): Um, yeah. There's... Th-this is, like, where it's like, "Well, which one do I pick?" There's, um, should I, I should go to my phone and see what my coaches have just been texting me about. I get successes all the time. (chuckles) All the time. But, um, one that just came yesterday was, uh, from one of my, I don't wanna name my coach, but she, she texted me about a client that's been with us for two years, which is actually unusual. Most of our clients are not here for two whole years. But, you know, if they keep growing and growing and they can do it, then why not? I got, you know, as long as, for me, as long as they are always, always, um, creating new successes every month.

(53:32) So I get a, I get, I, we track successes for every client. So I have to know (chuckles) that clients are actually moving forward and not staying stuck. That's really important for me. Um, but for the first time ever, and so this was, like, a really big deal. For the first time in her whole life, she's having her family come to her for, for holiday dinners. And it sounds kind of basic, like when I'm, I'm saying it out loud, I'm like, "This is so nothing," but this is such a big deal because this woman in particular never has people over, ever, 'cause she's ashamed of her house disorganization. She's, it's like a, it was a mess.

(54:14) It was a mess. And, and also she, beyond the, you know, disorganization part of her house and the fact that she's not very confident in, like, you know, you know, food and prep and, you know, just hosting in general, she also had, um, some pretty big issues with, uh, with two members of her family.

(54:34) So this was a huge thing. And so, yeah, so, so to have them over and to invite them over, you know, in addition to, like, the rest of her family, uh- Oh my God. Um, it's, it's so big in so many ways because not only is she, you know, healed in her own, like, ability to, like, you know, get stuff done, quote unquote, like get organized and learn how to, you know, make a couple of things or at least order a couple of things. Way more important than that is she's healed these relationships that were devastating for her, um, when she first came, 'cause she was actually estranged from one of these family members, and it's a really big deal.

(55:17) And so she healed herself on so many different levels, um, and I thought that was just one of the most brilliant, beautiful stories. That just came to my, uh... That just came into my texts yesterday. (chuckles) So, because we're talking about holidays, you know, in prep 'cause it's pretty emotionally loaded with, you know, a lot of, a lot of clients and such. But, but she-- For me, that's so transformational if someone who's been, like, struggling so much in so many different areas of her family, and now she's, like, having them all over and having a holiday meal, and she's like, you know, and she, and she had the, uh, the guts to do that, like, just to bring them over, and they're saying yes.

(55:55) They said yes, and everyone's coming, and it's just like, it's just beautiful. So I can't wait to hear. There's a continuation, (chuckles) and I can't wait to hear how it goes.

Erin Power (56:02): That's right. That is inc- that's an incredible, incredible success. Now, you mentioned that y- you know, you're tracking your clients' successes to make sure that they're moving forward, and that's really critical. I, I love to hear that. Now, this particular client's been with you for two years, and you mentioned that's maybe not typical. How, how, how long or what's the typical trajectory for-

Shanna Pearson (56:20): I feel like a year is probably a good trajectory 'cause we only work with adults. We don't work with kids. Um, and when you are an adult, let's say you're 45 years old, uh, you have had ADHD every single day of your life for 45 years.

Erin Power (56:38): You're born with it.

Shanna Pearson (56:39): Yeah. You're not gonna, you're not gonna cure it in, in three months, you know, like a lot of coaches have, like... I mean, we have plenty of clients who come-- We don't lock people into anything. Or again, bad business model. (chuckles) But, but we-- For people with ADHD, we're not gonna, like, we're not gonna have them commit. It's crazy that we do that, but we don't have them commit. Um-

Erin Power (56:59): So you go month to month, just ongoing?

Shanna Pearson (57:01): Yep. They just go month to month. They can leave whenever they want. They can leave whenever they want. They're not tied to anything, and, um, that's comfortable for me because I don't like being tied to anything, so I don't wanna tie anyone else to anything. But, um, (chuckles) but you're taking a very non-committal group of people and not having them commit to anything, which is pretty funny. But, um, yeah, I'd say, I'd say, like, at least, I'd say probably a year is really solid if you want, you know, for, like, life transformation, and it's very reasonable, and it's not, um...

(57:31) It's a big deal to change all of these habits and to literally almost, like, not change the wiring of your brain, but in effect change the wiring of your brain, you know, so that you go from point A to point B, and it's not a big deal, and you can get stuff done and feel good and, you know, just, you know, quote unquote, "feel a lot more normal" and be a happier person without, you know, being flooded by overwhelm every minute of your life.

Erin Power (57:54): I can't tell you how much I've learned from this conversation, and, and I love so much of, I love so much of what you're doing. So obviously I'm, I'm grateful to experts like yourself. I'm grateful that there's ADHD experts, so if I encounter it, I know where to send somebody. I'm not gonna become an ADHD expert.

Shanna Pearson (58:13): (chuckles) Good. We need them.

Erin Power (58:16): Yes. And I, I really love your coaching model because it is, it is, it is exactly what these clients need. They need n- uh, no long-term commitment, no big high-ticket, expensive, crazy coaching packages. They need to be told what to do, not, n- not encouraged. So you've really, y- you've, you've really created this bespoke ADHD program in every single way. Like, I, I think about programming a lot because I, because I'm a health coach educator. It's like, how, how are we meeting our clients? And every single sort of category of client needs, needs something different, and what you've created sounds absolutely picture perfect for this audience. I think it's an amazing business. I know the, you know, tongue in cheek, it's not scalable.

(58:55) It's a little bit of a wacky business model, but for these clients, it sounds absolutely ideal.

Shanna Pearson (59:00): Yeah. I hope so. I mean, I'm always growing too. I'm always, like, trying to do better, and the way that this grew was so organically. This was not meant to be a company. (chuckles) Like, you know? I just wanted to have some clients. It was just gonna be me and some clients. But, but, um, I just-- The way it's designed is honestly w- the way I would want it for me personally. Like, that's it. That's all it is. It's just like, "This is what I would want. Let's do this."

Erin Power (59:27): That is exactly gold. That is a very gold takeaway for every coach listening to this, regardless of what you do. Design it the way you would like it. There's a ton of wisdom to be had, and what experience would I like to receive as a human being trying to improve my health, happiness, life, whatever, in whatever-

Shanna Pearson (59:45): Right. What would I need? What would I need personally?

Erin Power (59:48): Yeah. I even think about this from the perspective of pricing. What feels like a, what feels like a comfortable price for me, you know? Just 'cause my peer's charging $25,000, I don't feel comfortable. I feel more comfortable at this price point. That feels good to me. We're gonna go with that one, you know?

Shanna Pearson (1:00:01): Yeah, I know. Like, even when you're so, like, you know, you have, like, a coaching school, right? And it's like, you could probably charge that much if you wanted to. I think maybe we could too, but I just wouldn't. Like, I just can't. I just... Yeah. What? I wouldn't be able to. I wouldn't wanna do that. (chuckles) So, but, but power to those who do, and that's fine, you know? Like, I have-- There's, I know coaches that charge... Honestly, I know of a coach in, um, like, in our city that is known for charging a million dollars a year. Like, who does that? That's great, and I'm gonna put that out there to you and your listeners because I guess this is in the realm of possibility as a coach.

(1:00:38) That, if that's in the realm of possibility, you know, then any- then go for it. (chuckles) Do, you know, there's no limit.

Erin Power (1:00:44): Well, what did you call yours? The Ritz-Carlton? The, the, this VIP white glove service?

Shanna Pearson (1:00:48): In our, in our... That's, like, an internal thing. You won't find that anywhere online. Like, I would never say that, but that is, that is how I want- My coaches to treat our clients. I- that is how I... That is, that is, that is all I want. It's just like s- we are going, without, without the price tag, we are going to take the best care of you. You know, you're gonna like leave here like on, in a completely, you know, in a different (laughs) first of all, with a different kinda, you know, brain working (laughs) but you know, just feeling amazing.

Erin Power (1:01:17): Oh my gosh. I love this. Very inspiring. I'm so grateful for this conversation. I'm also grateful 'cause I, I quickly checked and your book is on Audible, which is exciting for me 'cause that's how my preferred way of listening (laughs) of reading books.

Shanna Pearson (1:01:27): Oh, cool. (laughs)

Erin Power (1:01:29): I, I'm gonna give it a listen.

Shanna Pearson (1:01:31): It is. Yeah. I hope you don't get sick of my voice. You know, I have-

Erin Power (1:01:33): Amazing. Okay. So, so Shanna, like just, just give us, wrap us up. Where can we find you, your book, and, and get more information about what you're doing out there in the world?

Shanna Pearson (1:01:41): Um, okay. So my book is called Invisible ADHD. Um, it is awesome. I poured a, like most of our coaching manual into this book (laughs) for, for tools and such. So go for it if you think you need help. Whether you have ADHD or whether you're just, you know, super paralyzed and overwhelmed, it's gonna help for sure. And, um, you can find me at adhdcoaching.com. And, um, yeah, if there's, if there are any coaches listening to this who are really, you know, have just don't wanna spend the rest of their life like trying to get their own clients and you think it would be super exciting and you feel inspired to wanna help adults who have ADHD, you have to reach out because we're always hiring amazing coaches.

(1:02:29) And mention Erin's name (laughs) and, and I will personally be in the background taking care of you.

Erin Power (1:02:34): Amazing. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Shanna. I loved this conversation. I really appreciate you and the work you're doing.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:39): Thank you. I, same as you, Erin. You're doing fantastic and, and I love what you're doing as well. For real. I, I looked into everything that you're doing and it's like I love it.

Erin Power (1:02:47): Thank you. (outro music)

Transcribed from the episode audio.