Overwhelmed All the Time: How ADHD in Women Gets Missed

On episode 41 of Pinkpill Rx, Shanna Pearson, founder of Expert ADHD Coaching and author of Invisible ADHD, talks with Katie Fillmore and Jay Fillmore about her own life before her diagnosis, how she became an ADHD coach, and why so many women reach middle age without knowing they have ADHD.

Katie shares her own path to a diagnosis along the way, and the conversation ends with simple changes anyone can make and how the people around a woman with ADHD can support her. It aired before Invisible ADHD came out.

In this episode

• Shanna’s childhood as a silent, painfully shy kid who always felt “off frequency,” and why jobs and relationships were easy to start but hard to keep
• How running a health and wellness coaching program, in the same year she was diagnosed, led her to coach adults with ADHD
• “Facts are friendly”: writing down facts about what you have done, because the ADHD brain negates the good
• Why women born in the ’70s and ’80s were missed, and how the GAD-7 and PHQ-9 screening forms point to anxiety or depression instead
• Overwhelm as the strongest sign of ADHD in women, which the standard ADHD screening leaves out
• “Keep it to three, and you’re free,” a paper list instead of an app, and why support starts with being gentle and giving one step at a time

Episode links

• The episode page on Podbean, with the show’s notes
• Apple Podcasts and Spotify
• YouTube, with the same audio over a still of the show’s cover

Transcript

This transcript follows the audio episode above. Times are minutes and seconds into it, and they match the YouTube upload, which has the same audio.

Jay Fillmore (0:00): (upbeat music) Welcome to the Pink Pill Rx podcast, hosted by Katie and Jay Fillmore, where we navigate complex and thought-provoking topics surrounding women, with a focus on education. For shorter-form content, follow us on TikTok, Instagram, or YouTube at kators88 or pinkpillrx.

Katie Fillmore (0:17): That's K-A-T-O-R-S-8-8.

Jay Fillmore (0:20): If you enjoy this podcast, please give us a follow, and maybe a nice review. Today, we are excited to have Shanna Pearson here with us. Shanna is the founder and president of Expert ADHD Coaching, the largest ADHD coaching program of its kind in the world, providing one-on-one, action-based coaching for adults with ADHD seeking personal, professional, and financial success. With over 26 years of experience, she has designed and led focus and goal-achievement programs for executives and directors at Fortune 500 companies and world-class institutions, and has helped tens of thousands of adults transform their lives through her results-driven, brain-based approach. In addition to degrees in psychology and education, Shanna's credentials include a lifetime spent mastering her own ADHD. She's been featured on NPR, Fox, NBC, Global TV, CTV, and more. Debilitating ADHD-

Shanna Pearson (1:24): (chuckles)

Jay Fillmore (1:24): ... sent Shanna on a downward spiral for over th- 30 years before she had the great fortune of a psychiatrist overhearing her and getting her diagnosed. Shanna has a unique vantage point as a woman who struggled with ADHD without realizing it for most of her life, a champion who overcame it, and a coach with decades of experience and thousands of success stories. Shanna's upcoming book, Invisible ADHD, which comes out September 9th, is a groundbreaking, results-driven approach to managing ADHD, with over 100 proven tools uniquely tailored for the remarkable ADHD brain, including never-before-

Shanna Pearson (2:01): Mm

Jay Fillmore (2:01): ... published strategies and solutions that have transformed thousands of lives for over two decades. Shanna, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.

Shanna Pearson (2:09): Great to be here.

Katie Fillmore (2:10): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (2:10): Ready to have some fun.

Katie Fillmore (2:11): Yeah-

Shanna Pearson (2:12): Woo-woo!

Katie Fillmore (2:12): ... I'm excited, too.

Jay Fillmore (2:13): Me, too. (chuckles)

Katie Fillmore (2:14): So I- in the intro, we read a little bit about it, but I wanna hear more about your personal journey with ADHD before we jump into too many questions-

Shanna Pearson (2:24): (chuckles)

Katie Fillmore (2:24): ... because, like, I wanna hear where you're coming from, and just your background and stuff with this journey that has obviously been a long one for you.

Shanna Pearson (2:32): Um, that's a... Okay, that's a great question. The personal journey before I knew I had ADHD was, uh, honestly quite painful, and very lonely and frustrating. Um, I was a super silent kid. I think, I think today they call it, uh, selective mutism. I was a child that never spoke in- outside of my house, like, outside of where, uh, you know, my family, and I was so painfully shy. I was just- I felt like I was always afraid of being seen, or found out, or something, as, as like a l- like a five and six-year-old. And, and so it was always, you know, this experience of never knowing, never cluing in to what's going on around me.

Katie Fillmore (3:23): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (3:23): That's how it always felt. And, and when I was at home with the people that, you know, I knew most of all, and I knew cared about me, it was, it was like that's where I released a lot of energy, and I was talking a lot, but I still never... I never felt, I guess, on the same wavelength as anyone. Not my family, no one in my school, just no one. I was just always, like, off frequency. That's, that's how it felt as, as a child. And then I think that kind of continued through, you know, middle school, and then high school, but, you know, you kind of- you find your f- you find your people. (chuckles)

Jay Fillmore (3:59): Right.

Shanna Pearson (3:59): You find your friends-

Katie Fillmore (4:00): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (4:00): ... and as the schools get bigger and, you know, you find more of them. Um, but it w- it always just felt like I was a little bit on the outside. You know, like the odd one out? And, uh, and everything was really, really hard. Like, you know, school was always very hard and, you know, I worked... I, I developed a great work ethic, I think, because I worked all the time, and I could never get better than, uh, a B, you know?

Katie Fillmore (4:26): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (4:26): For, for school grades, and when, um, when it came to jobs, it was really hard for me to stay in jobs. It was easy for me to get jobs-

Jay Fillmore (4:34): Mm

Shanna Pearson (4:34): ... but hard to stay in the job. And it was easy for me to get into relationships, but it was hard to stay in relationships. And it was just a lot of disappointment, and a lot of, like... just so tumultuous, and some really, you know, hard, bad things happened, too. But I feel like it was all just this nonstop whirlwind of, of trying, but not ever getting anywhere.

Jay Fillmore (5:00): Hmm.

Katie Fillmore (5:00): I-

Shanna Pearson (5:00): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (5:01): ... can resonate with so much of that with (chuckles) my, my own journey. I mean, I definitely felt that way. When you say hard to stay in jobs, or hard to... Well, specifically jobs. Relationships, too, but specifically jobs. Was it, um, like, a p- a performance thing, or was it, like, did you get bored easily, or what, what happened there?

Shanna Pearson (5:22): It was both.

Katie Fillmore (5:24): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (5:24): It was, um... Honestly, I w- I don't wanna just say, "Oh, yeah, I got bored, so I left." Like, a couple times I got- I got fired once for (chuckles) a total ADHD moment, where I was running this fundraising program, and (chuckles) this was a really good job in those days. It was still nonprofit, so it didn't, like, pay a lot, but it was, like, I was, like, kind of up in the fundraising department. And they were telling everyone that they had to, you know, that day we had to do a real push, and everyone has to stay really late, and I was in charge of the whole department. (chuckles) Everyone has to stay really late to do, you know, the calls, where we were, you know, fundraising for a specific... It was, like, a day, like, an awareness day, right?

Jay Fillmore (6:05): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (6:05): And we were sitting in a staff meeting. There's 30 people. I'm in charge of all of them, and our- the executive director made this announcement, and I literally was like, "Ugh, really?" (scoffs)

Katie Fillmore (6:16): ... It's supposed to be the inside voice, right? (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (6:19): Yeah, it was supposed to be the inside voice. It came right out, and it was (laughs) like... You know how it is. It's the no filter.

Katie Fillmore (6:25): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (6:25): And and the next day I got fired. (laughs) And so-

Jay Fillmore (6:29): Wow.

Shanna Pearson (6:29): That was, like, a very, um- Like, that to me was, like, a moment where I was, like, so clued into what I had... Finally clued into what I- Like, an action that led directly to a result-

Katie Fillmore (6:41): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (6:41): ... I didn't want. And how did I not have any filter? Like, I was not a child at this point. (laughs) I had, like, a real job and everything. But I would say most of the time I needed to leave jobs because I was incredibly bored, and I just wanted to expand.

Jay Fillmore (6:59): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (6:59): And I wanted to, like, meet new people and do new things, and I felt like there was always more. But then, um, you know, th- this other time I just got fired because I was really dumb (laughs) and, and made, you know, silly remarks. So the- I would say, yeah, so it's a mix, but mostly boredom.

Jay Fillmore (7:16): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (7:17): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (7:17): But not all. Not all.

Katie Fillmore (7:18): Mm, yeah. I, I've noticed in our, our lives that it's like there's an expiration date on-

Shanna Pearson (7:24): Right

Katie Fillmore (7:25): ... on certain things, you know? Like, it's like-

Shanna Pearson (7:27): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (7:27): And, and I joke that it's, like, a four-year expiration date, and then we get a new education on something, or, or whatnot.

Shanna Pearson (7:32): And then we get a new (laughs) -

Jay Fillmore (7:33): (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (7:33): We just... It's like every, every-

Shanna Pearson (7:35): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (7:35): You know, it's like-

Shanna Pearson (7:36): That's a good way to put it.

Katie Fillmore (7:37): And, and you, you start collecting different, you know, professions or experiences or, or education.

Shanna Pearson (7:43): Exactly.

Katie Fillmore (7:43): I mean, he's going back to school in the fall, and this is gonna be, like, his third, his (laughs) his third career. (laughs) And-

Shanna Pearson (7:50): No way!

Katie Fillmore (7:51): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (7:51): What are you gonna... What are you going... Can I ask? What are you going back to school for?

Jay Fillmore (7:54): Yeah. So, well, m- uh, my m- my first job is I was a high school teacher for eight, eight, nine years. I taught high school math.

Katie Fillmore (8:02): Nice.

Jay Fillmore (8:02): Um, and then I started getting... You know, I started losing it. I told Katie, I said, "It's coming." Like, I got a couple years left or something like that.

Katie Fillmore (8:10): (laughs)

Jay Fillmore (8:10): And then I pivoted into real estate, and I learned, like, how to do plumbing and electrical and windows and flip houses and things like that. And, and now... (laughs) And they're very unrelated. And now I'm going for a master's in theology, which is kind of like-

Katie Fillmore (8:22): No way

Jay Fillmore (8:23): ... a lifelong, like, thing I've wanted to do but haven't been able to do.

Katie Fillmore (8:27): Wow!

Jay Fillmore (8:27): And-

Katie Fillmore (8:27): Yeah

Jay Fillmore (8:27): ... whether I teach with it or do something else with it, I'm excited just, you know, for the journey of it and learn something new and meet new people and everything. Kinda like what you're saying, there's more.

Shanna Pearson (8:37): You know what? I feel like in... We- I feel like our generation may be, like, a l- like, kind of missed it a little bit. But for the next generation, I think we should really... I think you're an amazing role model, and I think we should really be kind of teaching the next generation. Like, it's never about what do I want to do or who do I want to be when I grow up? It should be like, what are the six things that I want to be when I grow up in terms of a career?

Jay Fillmore (9:05): Wow.

Shanna Pearson (9:05): You know, like, we should really expand the number instead of thinking-

Jay Fillmore (9:09): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (9:09): ... that there's, like, one thing. We should- Like, if we, if we think that there's gonna be five or six, what do you want those to be?

Jay Fillmore (9:16): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (9:16): I feel like we'd be so much more free, and the generations would be... Like, the kids would be so much more free to, to, to know that they get to explore. Like, teaching to real estate to theology, (laughs) like, that's beautiful. Like, that's a human experience, you know, in terms of, like, everything-ness.

Jay Fillmore (9:32): Oh, thank you.

Shanna Pearson (9:32): That's just my opinion. (laughs)

Jay Fillmore (9:33): It feels really good.

Shanna Pearson (9:34): I love it.

Jay Fillmore (9:34): Thank you very much. Very, very-

Katie Fillmore (9:36): (laughs)

Jay Fillmore (9:36): ... validating.

Katie Fillmore (9:37): No, that is very validating-

Jay Fillmore (9:38): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (9:38): ... because a lot of-

Shanna Pearson (9:38): (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (9:39): I do feel like a lot of people do look at that, and they, "Oh, that looks aimless," or, "That looks-

Jay Fillmore (9:43): Right.

Shanna Pearson (9:44): Oh, for sure.

Katie Fillmore (9:45): "Like there's judgment and shame almost."

Shanna Pearson (9:46): Why can't he just stick in one thing?

Katie Fillmore (9:48): Exactly.

Shanna Pearson (9:48): Why can't he just make a decision? (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (9:50): Yes.

Jay Fillmore (9:50): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (9:50): Exactly.

Shanna Pearson (9:51): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (9:51): And I've always said, like, to expect kids to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives at 18, like, come on, you're a baby.

Shanna Pearson (9:58): You don't even know!

Katie Fillmore (9:58): Oh, my gosh.

Jay Fillmore (9:59): You don't know.

Katie Fillmore (10:00): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (10:01): Yeah.

Jay Fillmore (10:01): They're... Yeah, and if, if you, you know, you think of-

Katie Fillmore (10:03): Yeah

Jay Fillmore (10:03): ... I think the idea of having them pick six or some other number more than one is great because it gives them this kind of implicit, um, discretion to move on from one thing to something else, and that you don't have to just pick one thing and stay in it forever and ever, like the model used to be. And I think that, you know, maybe the third thing they want to do they don't even know about yet because they're 18. They don't know that job or profession or concentration even exists yet. But at least they have the mindset of, "I don't have to stick with this one thing." So if you discover something new, then you can pivot into that and not feel like you're aimless or a disappointment or some- behind or something like that.

Shanna Pearson (10:41): 100%. I always tell my kids, 'cause my... I have two kids, and one seems to be quite sure about what she wants to do, even though it changes every year.

Katie Fillmore (10:48): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (10:49): And the other one has no idea. And my, my line is, you know, not until I was in my 30s did I even imagine such a thing as ADHD coaching. Like, what the heck is that? You know? (laughs)

Jay Fillmore (11:01): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (11:01): Like, that did not exist. (laughs) It didn't even exist. I hadn't even heard of it or thought of it, or it was, like, not even a blip-

Katie Fillmore (11:09): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (11:09): ... in my radar. So-

Jay Fillmore (11:11): Right

Shanna Pearson (11:11): ... who cares? Yeah, we don't need to know.

Jay Fillmore (11:13): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (11:14): How did it-

Jay Fillmore (11:14): Right.

Shanna Pearson (11:14): How did it come up on your radar? Like, how did you go from not diagnosed-

Jay Fillmore (11:20): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (11:20): ... to, "Oh, I'm diagnosed," to, "Now I'm gonna be a coach?" It happened so naturally. It was al- it was almost like the universe, if you believe in, like, any kind of p- which I guess if you're studying theology, you probably do. (laughs)

Jay Fillmore (11:34): (laughs) Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (11:34): Like, it, it was so bizarre. It was... Uh, I was... I only worked nonprofit. I was, like, a nonprofit, like, constant... Like, the revolving door of different nonprofits, 'cause I loved making a difference, and there was no money in it, but I didn't care. So at a nonprofit, I was hired (laughs) to run a health and wellness coaching program for 2,000... This is so bizarre. It was something that was funded, for 2,000 career counselors across the province of Ontario.

Katie Fillmore (12:05): Wow!

Shanna Pearson (12:05): Okay, super specific, right?

Jay Fillmore (12:07): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (12:07): Obviously, there was, like, a grant that was given to this organization to create this health coaching program for this d- like, the- these people, and they hired me to run it.... and I don't know anything about health or wellness. Like, that is not my- I don't, I don't- I never studied anything (chuckles) about this, nutrition, or health, or fitness, or anything. But, um, I somehow managed, because I used to- I had a lot of experience, like, leading kids, and, you know, doing, like, kinesthetic learning, um, things, and I used to, like, lead backpacking trips in the wilderness for teenagers and such. I was able to convince these people that I can take people from point A to point B, and have them have fun no matter what, and achieve, you know, achieve what they want to achieve, um, 'cause it's something I used to do with, like, our teens and the kids back in the day.

(12:52) So they hired me, and this health and wellness coaching program was killing it. Like, they had every single participant who they wanted to participate, all 2,000 people were in it. They didn't have anybody quit. Everybody was loving it, 'cause I created teams and competitions, and I made it so that this is, like, super fun, and why would anybody not wanna do it? And then I made, like, these, like, goals, and, you know, having... How do we get people to do- go from zero to, like, you know, 10 minutes of exercise, and 20, then 30, then, you know, whatever.

Katie Fillmore (13:23): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (13:24): And, and I just... It was just really awesome. That's- that was the career part. That same year, my life completely undid, and that was- and the undoing, um, led to the diagnosis. Like, that was a whole... Which we're not gonna get into today-

Katie Fillmore (13:43): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (13:43): ... but it was, like, a whole thing, and that was the same year I was diagnosed with ADHD. And so when I was diagnosed, I was just like... First of all, I was blown away, 'cause it made so much sense.

Katie Fillmore (13:57): Right.

Shanna Pearson (13:58): It was just like... 'Cause at first, it was a misdiagnosis of depression-

Katie Fillmore (14:01): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (14:01): ... which I'm sure, like-

Katie Fillmore (14:03): Right

Shanna Pearson (14:03): ... it's like, I feel like, s- so classic. But when it came out as ADHD, it just, like, everything just, like, opened up, and so I learned everything possible, and I spoke to as many doctors as possible, and I was, like, interviewing people, and, and learning and reading, and just, like, so fascinated. You know, like, you get, like, super hyper-focused when you're interested in what you're doing?

Katie Fillmore (14:24): Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (14:24): I wouldn't stop. It was, like, 20 hours a day just, like, diving in, and just nonstop. And then I'm just, like... I started, you know, doing stuff for myself, (chuckles) obviously, and then these things started working. Like, I wasn't, um... I was able to, like, manage my reactions better, and my mood, and my impulsivity, and my overwhelm, and all- everything started trickling, like, slowly, slowly getting better and easier. And that was, uh, you know, because I had been doing this coaching program (chuckles) for the, you know, for the, the health and wellness thing, I, I kind of- it just, like, dawned on me at the, at the very end, where they were- we were doing the award ceremonies for the winning teams, and it was, like, a big thing, and everyone had to travel to it, and I was on stage giving out the awards. And I just want- I just had this knowing of, I need- I wanna be doing this. Like, these types of successes that those people had reached, I wanna be doing this work for my people-

Katie Fillmore (15:21): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (15:21): - and my people were, like, ADHDers. Like, I can totally do this. I can get people (chuckles) you know, into, you know, a more... Whatever kind of life they want in terms of more calm, or focused, or, you know, just able to channel their energy into, into where they wanna f- be, and to who- like, how they wanna feel.

Katie Fillmore (15:42): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (15:42): 'Cause it's not just about what we're doing.

Katie Fillmore (15:43): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (15:44): You know? It's also about, like, how we're feeling, and so that was when it kinda just, like, hit me, and so I slowly started doing it. Like, one client, and then, like, two clients (chuckles) and then it just, like, kind of blew up.

Katie Fillmore (15:58): Blew up from there.

Shanna Pearson (15:58): Yeah. (chuckles) Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (16:00): Yeah, that's- that is an awesome story.

Jay Fillmore (16:02): Organic, isn't it?

Katie Fillmore (16:03): Yeah, exactly.

Shanna Pearson (16:04): Super organic. I, I, I didn't go to coach training school at that point, you know? I- like, I did eventually, but I had no... It wasn't like a lot of people, they wanna go into something, and they think they need to get all of these cr- like, educate-

Katie Fillmore (16:14): Right

Shanna Pearson (16:15): ... all standards in the education, and I had to take this course and this certification, and I totally see you guys looking at each other-

Jay Fillmore (16:21): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (16:21): - exactly like this.

Jay Fillmore (16:22): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (16:22): But you don't. You don't. If you... I, I don't, in some places, like, obviously if you're gonna be a neurologist, okay. (chuckles) You know, but, you know, in some cases, if you know that you're talented at something, and you know you're gonna help people, don't- you know, you can st- you can start doing it and get all of the things you need to get, you know?

Jay Fillmore (16:42): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (16:42): You can start doing it first.

Katie Fillmore (16:43): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (16:44): But wait-

Katie Fillmore (16:45): Yeah. Yeah, I, I think that I, I have grown out of this, but most of my life, I've looked around for, like, permission that I'm qualified, right?

Shanna Pearson (16:54): Right!

Katie Fillmore (16:55): That I'm qualified-

Shanna Pearson (16:56): Strong

Katie Fillmore (16:56): ... to even talk about, like, pink pillar feminism stuff, right? Like, I mean, I'm not, like, qual- I don't have a degree in this. I'm not, you know, like-

Shanna Pearson (17:03): A podcasting degree. (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (17:04): ... something. Yes. No, I mean, like, I don't have this, this stuff, and so it, uh, I, yeah, resonate with that. That's really, that's really cool.

Shanna Pearson (17:12): Right?

Katie Fillmore (17:12): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (17:14): Well, like, Katie, what would you... Like, what's something that you're not... Can I ask you? Like, is it okay if I ask you something?

Katie Fillmore (17:20): Yeah. Oh, yes.

Shanna Pearson (17:21): Okay. Okay, cool, cool. So what's something that you're not doing that you feel like you just need to be a bit more qualified to be able to do? Is there anything?

Katie Fillmore (17:31): Um, well, there's something I'm attempting to do (chuckles) -

Shanna Pearson (17:34): What is it?

Katie Fillmore (17:35): ... that I feel like I'm not qualified to do. I'm actually- I'm working on a book right now, and, um-

Shanna Pearson (17:40): Oh.

Katie Fillmore (17:40): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (17:40): That's a huge undertaking. (chuckles)

Katie Fillmore (17:41): Yes, it is, and I, I have a literary agent-

Shanna Pearson (17:44): Mm

Katie Fillmore (17:44): ... and, um, I just, like, submitted my chapters for her to review, because we're gonna go on submission in the fall, like, to publishers and stuff, you know? I'm sure you know. Of course you know. (chuckles) You just did a book.

Shanna Pearson (17:56): (chuckles) Um, like, don't do it.

Katie Fillmore (17:57): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (17:57): No, I'm kidding. (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (17:59): Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (17:59): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (18:00): So, um, but I definitely feel like, like, dealing with major imposter syndrome of, like, I-

Shanna Pearson (18:06): Mm.

Katie Fillmore (18:07): Because, again, with these topics and stuff, it's not like I have a formal education with this. This is all self-research. This is all, you know, that kind of thing, and so it's difficult for me to, I think, embody, like, that I could do this.

Shanna Pearson (18:22): ... right. Well, you are doing it.

Katie Fillmore (18:23): Yes. No, I guess that's true. I am doing it.

Shanna Pearson (18:26): You're already like doing it.

Katie Fillmore (18:26): I am, but I am like really pushing forward. I'm really digging in (laughs) -

Shanna Pearson (18:30): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (18:31): ... I think with all that I have.

Shanna Pearson (18:32): Good. Good, so you've read the book, right?

Katie Fillmore (18:35): I-

Shanna Pearson (18:35): Or you've started reading my book?

Katie Fillmore (18:37): Yes, yes, yes.

Shanna Pearson (18:37): Okay, so there's like this, um- so I'm just gonna mention it.

Katie Fillmore (18:41): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (18:41): But in terms of, um, I don't know if you've gotten there yet, but facts are friendly.

Katie Fillmore (18:46): No, I've not gotten there yet. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (18:47): Okay, good.

Katie Fillmore (18:47): Or at least that's not ringing a bell yet, so-

Shanna Pearson (18:49): So I'm gonna tease it.

Katie Fillmore (18:51): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (18:51): Um, and that's where you need to go-

Katie Fillmore (18:53): Okay

Shanna Pearson (18:53): ... i- into that chapter, because you al- you already are, you know, are, are basically expressing who you are, and communicating amazing things, and helping people just with... Even just with this podcast, forget about everything else that you do.

Katie Fillmore (19:09): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (19:10): Right? Um, and that's a fact.

Katie Fillmore (19:13): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (19:13): It's a fact. Like, you have reviews. (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (19:17): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (19:18): You have people who comment on, you know, awesomeness.

Katie Fillmore (19:22): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (19:23): You have that. Nobody's making that up. Nobody's blowing smoke, and no one's just like, you know, making you do like affirmations in the mirror. You have that. You've done that. Fact.

Katie Fillmore (19:34): Wow! Yeah, that's- say- hearing it from somebody else is different (laughs) than just, you know, seeing it myself, I think.

Shanna Pearson (19:41): Yeah. Well, 'cause when we see it, we're just like, "Yeah, whatever. That was just..." You know.

Katie Fillmore (19:45): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (19:45): "That happened just because of that." No, it is a fact, and your brain, especially when you have ADHD, and you both probably experience this, your brain negates a lot.

Katie Fillmore (19:55): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (19:56): It negates a lot of the good stuff, but it's really im- it's honestly impossible for your... I feel like facts supersede emotion, and they're the only thing-

Katie Fillmore (20:05): Mm

Shanna Pearson (20:05): ... that supersede emotion.

Katie Fillmore (20:07): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (20:07): Because you can't deny, you cannot deny that two plus two is four-

Katie Fillmore (20:11): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (20:12): ... even if you don't feel like it is. (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (20:14): Yeah, that's a good point.

Shanna Pearson (20:15): Like, I don't want two plus two to be four, and who told you that anyway? But two plus two is four. It's a fact. The fact is, is you're doing all of this work. The fact is, you're getting these comments, and the fact is, is that you're making a difference. The fact is, is that's you. You.

Katie Fillmore (20:29): Mm. See, I'm getting like pretty coachy now.

Shanna Pearson (20:31): So own it, girl. (laughs) That's amazing.

Jay Fillmore (20:33): I hope you're, yeah, taking this to heart.

Katie Fillmore (20:34): Yes.

Jay Fillmore (20:35): It seems like-

Katie Fillmore (20:35): No

Jay Fillmore (20:35): ... yeah.

Katie Fillmore (20:36): Thank you.

Jay Fillmore (20:36): You're welcome.

Katie Fillmore (20:37): No, thank you for saying that. I do appreciate that a lot.

Shanna Pearson (20:40): Yeah, well-

Katie Fillmore (20:40): And it means a lot, yeah

Shanna Pearson (20:41): ... it's just the truth.

Katie Fillmore (20:42): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (20:42): It's the truth.

Katie Fillmore (20:43): It's fact.

Shanna Pearson (20:43): You just have to... It's facts. Facts are friendly.

Katie Fillmore (20:45): Well, I'm gonna s-

Shanna Pearson (20:46): It's important

Katie Fillmore (20:46): ... I'm gonna skim to that part and-

Shanna Pearson (20:48): Yeah, go. (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (20:49): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (20:49): Let me know how it goes.

Katie Fillmore (20:51): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (20:52): I want you to send me a picture of your list.

Katie Fillmore (20:54): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (20:55): Okay.

Katie Fillmore (20:55): Of my, of my li- oh, 'cause it's facts.

Shanna Pearson (20:57): Yeah, your facts are friendly list.

Katie Fillmore (20:58): Oh, my facts are friendly.

Shanna Pearson (20:59): Yes.

Katie Fillmore (20:59): I'll see.

Shanna Pearson (20:59): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (20:59): I understand.

Jay Fillmore (21:00): You'll want to look at them.

Shanna Pearson (21:01): I wanna see.

Katie Fillmore (21:01): Good.

Shanna Pearson (21:02): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (21:02): Yeah, I'll have to-

Jay Fillmore (21:02): Oh, yeah

Katie Fillmore (21:03): ... show you. You know what? I didn't sh- I'm awful. I didn't share it with him. I kept it all to myself. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (21:08): It's okay. (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (21:08): You're-

Shanna Pearson (21:09): You're gonna share it (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (21:10): ... share it with you.

Shanna Pearson (21:11): Jay?

Jay Fillmore (21:12): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (21:12): The stuff in the book is also for men.

Katie Fillmore (21:14): Yeah.

Jay Fillmore (21:15): Great, because it-

Shanna Pearson (21:15): There is, there is one chapter in this book, I think it's chapter five, where we talk about, you know, estrogen.

Katie Fillmore (21:21): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (21:21): That's the only chapter that's very women-specific. They wanted me to write this for women, so it's written for women, so there's a lot of women, women, women.

Jay Fillmore (21:29): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (21:29): But the fact is, is that the tools in this book are the tools that we use in our coaching program for men.

Katie Fillmore (21:34): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (21:34): And 50% of our clients are men. (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (21:37): Okay.

Jay Fillmore (21:37): Oh, great.

Katie Fillmore (21:38): Yeah, these tools are-

Shanna Pearson (21:39): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (21:39): ... proven with, with thousands of men.

Shanna Pearson (21:41): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (21:41): So yeah. Also-

Jay Fillmore (21:42): Well, I'm going to write, "Facts are friends or friendly."

Shanna Pearson (21:44): Yeah, facts are friendly.

Jay Fillmore (21:45): Friendly.

Katie Fillmore (21:45): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (21:45): Facts are friendly.

Katie Fillmore (21:47): Are friendly, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (21:47): So is- and I'm... So I should know this, but is this your f- what number book is this for you? This is my only book-

Katie Fillmore (21:54): This is your only book

Shanna Pearson (21:54): ... ever written.

Katie Fillmore (21:55): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (21:55): I did not intend to write a book. They came to me.

Katie Fillmore (21:57): Okay, so I was gonna ask how this book came about then.

Shanna Pearson (22:01): Yeah, it... (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (22:02): Someone came knocking on your door, huh?

Shanna Pearson (22:04): Someone came knocking at my door. It was an editor-at-large for Macmillan. Um, so I said yes, because of one reason only: My whole history is in nonprofit. Most of my life, I had zero money, and I was always, like, scraping things together. You know, like, even like... Always, like, I al- I always had to figure out how to pay for stuff and always had to figure out how to live on the very, very cheap. And we ha- I have a coaching program, and my coaching program is not inexpensive, and I can't do anything about it, because we have to pay our coaches.

Jay Fillmore (22:36): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (22:36): And they deserve to be paid, 'cause they're amazing, and they're the ones who allow me to help more people, 'cause I can't help as- unless I did a group thing, and I really don't think it's as effective as one-on-one, 'cause one-on-one is where, like, the magic really happens.

Katie Fillmore (22:51): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (22:51): And so... And there's, like, background costs and stuff, so I can't control our rates, even though, like, we haven't touched them since way before COVID. I, I do everything possible, and yet it breaks my heart the amount of people that, that, um, that they come in, and they have an intro call, and then, you know, we're telling them like, "Well, you know, if you wanna do this, it's great. Here's what... Here's the rate." And, and, and people get upset and angry, and, and some people are like, "Oh, my God, that's so inexpensive!" (laughs) You know, like, "Oh, you guys are amazing and so reasonable." But other people, a lot more people, are like, "I can't afford that. I'm still trying to pay my rent," or, "That's, like, a car payment," or... You know, it's just like, it, it honestly breaks my heart. So, like, I'm sitting in the background, and I'm, like, the business owner, but I can't do anything-

Jay Fillmore (23:38): Mm

Shanna Pearson (23:38): ... because we need to stay in business. And so when they came to me with this book, it was like the universe, again, saying, "Here's your way-

Jay Fillmore (23:47): Mm

Shanna Pearson (23:47): ... to give everything away to everybody."

Katie Fillmore (23:51): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (23:52): And, like, what is a book? Like, $25? (laughs) You know?

Katie Fillmore (23:56): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (23:56): Here you go. Take it. This is all- these are amazing tools. I've got, like, over 100 tools in this book. I held nothing back. Like, this wasn't like a, "Hmm, if I only give them five tools, I'll be able to write another book, and we can make money on it."

Jay Fillmore (24:09): Mm, right.

Shanna Pearson (24:09): Like, it wasn't anything like that. I just- I put, I put, like, 100 things in this book, and I just want everyone who, who wants it just to have it. Take it and use it, please. Like, implement one (laughs) of these tools, just one, and, and your life will actually get easier.... like, 100%. And so that's why this book deal- that's why the book happened, is just, it was my way of being able to give it to people without a price tag, like coach- like, you know, one-on-one coaching-

Katie Fillmore (24:40): Like a coaching price tag.

Shanna Pearson (24:41): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (24:41): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (24:42): Yeah. Yeah, so I had no idea it was gonna take three years of my life. (laughs) You know, I had no idea how much, um, intensity it is, 'cause, you know, I feel like my, my son's whole middle school, uh, career was, like, me writing this book. Like, this is what he's gonna remember (laughs) of his childhood. Like-

Katie Fillmore (25:04): That's really beautiful. Well, not that part. Sorry-

Shanna Pearson (25:07): (laughs) Oh, no

Katie Fillmore (25:07): ... not that part.

Shanna Pearson (25:07): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (25:08): Not that that he wrote- is gonna remember this in-

Shanna Pearson (25:10): (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (25:10): ... his entire childhood. (laughs) I'm saying it's beautiful that you want to give those tools, and that you're-

Jay Fillmore (25:15): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (25:15): ... not holding- like, you're not- it's the opposite of gatekeeping. You're just, like, opening the gates-

Shanna Pearson (25:19): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (25:19): ... and here's all the information.

Shanna Pearson (25:20): I just wrote, I just wrote it all down.

Katie Fillmore (25:22): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (25:22): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (25:22): Yeah.

Jay Fillmore (25:23): That says a lot-

Shanna Pearson (25:23): That's what I did

Jay Fillmore (25:24): ... 'cause you could- I mean, like you even indicated, you can give away some of the tools that you've used in coaching, and then you can make more money later if you get people with a little appetizer and things like that.

Shanna Pearson (25:33): Of course!

Jay Fillmore (25:33): And it just-

Shanna Pearson (25:34): That's like a marketing tool.

Jay Fillmore (25:35): Exactly, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (25:35): Yeah.

Jay Fillmore (25:36): And it just speaks a lot that you- your, your, your end game is not making money. Your end game is to help as many people as possible, and I th- hope that that's, um, evident to our listeners, and I know it's evident to me, hearing that. I, it, it's, uh- I just, uh... That says a lot about you as a person. I think that's a beautiful thing.

Shanna Pearson (25:54): Thanks. Yeah, it was... I mean, that was definitely the intention, and I just really wanted to do it. I really just wanted to put everything in. Like, there's no, there's no sequel to the book. I just want- I just wanna help everybody, and I don't wanna be that person who can only help people who can afford it.

Katie Fillmore (26:10): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (26:10): You know? Ever. I'm never gonna be that person, so this is my commitment, was the book. (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (26:16): That's awesome.

Jay Fillmore (26:17): Wow.

Katie Fillmore (26:17): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (26:18): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (26:18): So in, in the vein of, of helping people, I, I have a couple questions around ADHD and women-

Shanna Pearson (26:24): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (26:25): ... that maybe you could help us out with. Why do you think so many women are reaching middle age or later without knowing that they had ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (26:33): Oh, because people who are reaching middle age now were born in the '70s and '80s.

Katie Fillmore (26:40): Mm-hmm. And-

Shanna Pearson (26:42): And we... Like, what, w- are you an, an '80s kid?

Katie Fillmore (26:45): I am an '80s baby, and I was a misdiagnosed... I'm not- I, well, yes, I was misdiagnosed. Straight up, I was misdiagnosed, but, yes, it was missed. It was a missed diagnosis.

Shanna Pearson (26:54): Totally missed-

Katie Fillmore (26:55): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (26:55): ... because back in the day, they didn't know anything. Like, in my- like, it's, it's the same... Like, I was born in the '70s, you know, and it's just they had no clue back then. It was a boy problem, and it was all about hyperactivity and restlessness, and the most annoying boys in class who would not be quiet (laughs) and were driving their teachers insane. You know, those were, like, the problem kids-

Katie Fillmore (27:19): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (27:19): ... and, quote, unquote. You know, and they're not problem kids at all, but they were to their teachers, 'cause they, quote, unquote, "couldn't sit still," and that's what they knew about ADHD. And so you have ADHD, but you probably were not, I'm guessing, (laughs) but I'm, I'm guessing you probably weren't that kid that just, like, drove everyone crazy in school.

Katie Fillmore (27:42): No, I was very anxious to please.

Shanna Pearson (27:44): There you go.

Katie Fillmore (27:45): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (27:45): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (27:46): And, and-

Shanna Pearson (27:46): Yeah, you were probably-

Katie Fillmore (27:47): ... I remember thinking that if I got bad grades, my, my pr- my teacher's gonna think I'm an idiot, and that was, like, horrifying to me. Like, and that's-

Shanna Pearson (27:53): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (27:53): ... like, why I worked so hard, is because-

Shanna Pearson (27:55): See

Katie Fillmore (27:56): ... I just couldn't stand that thought, that they would see that.

Shanna Pearson (28:00): Right, which is basically- Katie, that's basically the exact opposite of a, of a troublemaker.

Katie Fillmore (28:05): Mm.

Jay Fillmore (28:05): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (28:06): Like, you were trying so hard to stay out of trouble, and you were trying so hard to make-

Katie Fillmore (28:10): Yes

Shanna Pearson (28:10): ... everything okay, and you were trying so hard to do well, and you were probably, with your anxiety, like, ruminating nonstop about how you can fix things and how you can do things better-

Katie Fillmore (28:21): Absolutely

Shanna Pearson (28:22): ... nonstop. And I just got goosebumps, 'cause, like, that is, like, it... Your experience at that time is so typical, and it sucks, because you were an anxious kid, you know? And you didn't need to be, and you didn't even know what was going on with you. Uh, the reason that we all got, we all got missed (laughs) is because they didn't know anything back then about girls and how ADHD presents itself in females. They didn't know, but now, you know what? Honestly, they st- a lot of doctors still don't know.

Katie Fillmore (28:55): Yeah, it was very hard-

Shanna Pearson (28:56): They still-

Katie Fillmore (28:56): ... to get a diagnosis for me.

Shanna Pearson (28:58): Right.

Katie Fillmore (28:58): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (28:58): Yeah. So when you were misdiagnosed, were you misdiagnosed with... What were you, what do you-

Katie Fillmore (29:04): Depression, anxiety.

Shanna Pearson (29:05): Yeah, exactly.

Katie Fillmore (29:07): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (29:07): Same.

Katie Fillmore (29:07): And then given SSRIs, and nothing ever worked, and-

Shanna Pearson (29:10): Nothing worked-

Katie Fillmore (29:11): Then I was treated-

Shanna Pearson (29:11): Did it make you more depressed?

Katie Fillmore (29:12): Yep, and then I was treatment-resistant-

Shanna Pearson (29:14): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (29:14): ... depression, and-

Shanna Pearson (29:15): Right

Katie Fillmore (29:15): ... yes, and so I, yes, ended up getting diagnosed with ADHD, and then a couple years later, got diagnosed with autism, so surprise. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (29:22): Right, AuDHD, right?

Katie Fillmore (29:23): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (29:23): Like the... Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (29:25): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (29:25): So it's, uh, you know what? We're, we're not- we didn't find out, and nobody, like, most of your listeners, too, who are in, you know, like, uh, born in the '70s or '80s or even sometimes in the '90s, they just didn't, they just didn't catch on that a little girl sitting silently in class, like, freaking out internally, freaking out, um, that could very well be ADHD.

Katie Fillmore (29:49): What do you- what are clues of women our age now, you know, older women now, that would... I shouldn't say older women. That's not really what I meant-

Shanna Pearson (29:58): But older than elementary-

Katie Fillmore (29:58): (laughs) I know

Shanna Pearson (29:59): ... older than elementary school. W- like, what would be clues now that they would have ADHD, that they should, you know, maybe pay attention to? So I think this is a really, really important question, because let's say you're not feeling great, and, you know, your mood is kind of up and down, and you want to go... and, and you're worried a lot about random things, and you feel a little bit down about your life. And you'll go to, you know, you might tell your doctor, right? And then your doctor or, uh, you know, they'll give you this assessment in their office. Have you ever gotten these assessments? It's like, you know, they'll give it to you on a clipboard, and it's like a... You have to say, like, "Do I feel like this? Do I feel like that?" And based on your score, they'll diagnose you. Well, it's- they'll assess you with something, right?

Katie Fillmore (30:43): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (30:43): So the ones that they give women are-... usually an anxiety screening, the GAD, the GAD-7-

Katie Fillmore (30:51): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (30:52): -and a depression screening, the PHQ-9. Those are the most common ones in practically every physician's office. 85% of what's on those self-assessments are ADHD symptoms for women.

Katie Fillmore (31:08): Whoa!

Shanna Pearson (31:09): 85%, and I, I could, I would like read it- it's, like, literally restlessness, difficulty sitting still, worrying nonstop, "I'm feeling bad about your life"-

Katie Fillmore (31:19): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (31:19): ... poor appetite or poor appetite or overeating. Like, who doesn't fall into that? Um, you know, trouble sleeping, trouble... Like, all of these- all of these ADHD symptoms are, are on those two assessments. So women who have ADHD, if their doctor doesn't know about ADHD, will get misdiagnosed with anxiety or depression or both. And so you need to know (chuckles) that if you... I would say, like, the things to look for that are not on those assessments that are totally only about ADHD-

Katie Fillmore (31:56): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (31:56): ... There's something else I want to say about the ADHD assessment, but-

Katie Fillmore (31:59): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (31:59): ... beyond that, if you can relate to the feeling of severe overwhelm, to the point where it almost feels like most of your life you're like, you feel like you're a deer caught in headlights, if you can relate to that, and it's been like that for most of your life, and it's been like that in different situations, not just at school, not just at work, but also at home, um, that is a very, very, very strong sign. So I- in the book, I say, "Overwhelmed all the time," is, could be, like, the, the real phrase for what ADHD is. It's like the catchphrase. Overwhelmed-

Katie Fillmore (32:47): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (32:47): ... all the time, just, like, nonstop. And, and if you think about a lot of the ADHD symptoms, like disorganization and poor time management, um, procrastination, all of those things are a result of severe overwhelm. And so I think, like, overwhelm is, like, the, the source. And so it's not just about, you know, restlessness, and I don't feel good about myself, and I'm disorganized. The ADHD component is the severe overwhelm, but that is not on the ADHD self-assessment that you'll get at your doctor's office. 'Cause the doctor's office self-assessment, and honestly, Katie, I swear this is why it was hard for you to get diagnosed and why it was hard for me, too, and practically every woman out there, the ADHD diagnosis that they'll give you at the doctor's office, the screening tool, is very much about executive functioning and productivity.

Katie Fillmore (33:38): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (33:38): I have a hard time following through on things. I have a hard time finishing what I start. I have a hard time, um, you know, g- you know, staying still. (chuckles) I have a hard time, you know, com- like, just, like, doing tasks, and, and I have many, many goals. Like, it's all over the place, and it's more about executive function versus the emotional experience of ADHD and overwhelm, which is really what women live with.

Katie Fillmore (34:02): It's making, making me a little angry inside, (chuckles) because that needs-

Shanna Pearson (34:06): (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (34:06): ... that needs to be fixed. That's not okay.

Shanna Pearson (34:08): Well, that's why we're talking about it.

Katie Fillmore (34:09): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (34:10): I, I feel like I f- I... Oh, my gosh, this is why we're talking about it. Like, this is what we need to talk about because we're all s- s- millions of women are being misdiagnosed, mismedicated, just like you-

Katie Fillmore (34:24): Mm

Shanna Pearson (34:24): ... just like me, just like probably half your listeners out there or maybe more, and there's a very clear reason for it, and it, it's fixable, you know? So that's it. So, like, one of the things that I love talking about is, is exactly this, is, like, we- everybody needs to know about this, and, and the more doctors that understand that ADHD for women is really incredibly severe, almost paralyzing overwhelm, the better we'll be. Like, the more people will be able to take care of us because it's... You know, it is manageable. There's- this is not a lifelong sentence in any bad way once you know what's going on.

Katie Fillmore (35:03): Yeah. It, it was amazing to me once I knew what was going on, and I could, like, name it-

Shanna Pearson (35:09): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (35:09): ... and all of a sudden, this became less of a character flaw and more of a, "Oh, this is, like, a, a clinical thing that is happening that, like, has science behind it, and it's not just I just suck," (chuckles) basically, right?

Shanna Pearson (35:22): Exactly.

Katie Fillmore (35:23): It's always something wrong with you.

Shanna Pearson (35:25): It was life-changing.

Katie Fillmore (35:25): Yes!

Shanna Pearson (35:25): Right.

Katie Fillmore (35:25): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (35:26): Totally.

Katie Fillmore (35:26): It was life-changing. Oh, my brain, and then to learn how to work with my brain instead of against my brain-

Shanna Pearson (35:31): Mm

Katie Fillmore (35:31): ... because it's not- I mean, it does take work to- it does take work. It's not just like, "Oh, I got this diagnosis," and, you know, just because I me- I am medicated. I don't know if you are, but I am medicated, and that made- that was life-changing.

Shanna Pearson (35:42): Good.

Katie Fillmore (35:42): That was completely life-changing for me.

Shanna Pearson (35:44): Good.

Katie Fillmore (35:44): But I know for some w- women, it's not. But, um, the other work I had to do is the lifestyle stuff and the, like, the changing just my thought patterns about myself was so impactful, um-

Shanna Pearson (35:56): Good

Katie Fillmore (35:56): ... just because I was, would be so self-depreciating, right?

Shanna Pearson (36:00): Right.

Katie Fillmore (36:00): Because it's like, "I am- I feel like an outsider. Uh, why can't I do this? This, why is it so overwhelming all the time?"

Shanna Pearson (36:07): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (36:07): "Why am I burnt out? Why-"

Shanna Pearson (36:09): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (36:09): ... "you know, this is-"

Shanna Pearson (36:10): Why am I so exhausted?

Katie Fillmore (36:11): Yes, and I'm seeing women around me and mothers around me that just seem to just, you know, have it, ha- have it in the bag from my perspective, and then people would give me a hard time and be like, "Well, you're just looking on the outside. You don't know what's going on on the inside." And it's like, no, there's something fundamentally different here, and I cannot put my finger on it. I am not crazy. (chuckles) There is something-

Shanna Pearson (36:31): No

Katie Fillmore (36:32): ... like, this is affecting me in a way that looks very different than what it looked like in my friends-

Shanna Pearson (36:38): Exactly

Katie Fillmore (36:39): ... or family.

Shanna Pearson (36:39): Exactly. No, totally, and things affect you differently.

Katie Fillmore (36:43): Yes. Yes.

Shanna Pearson (36:43): You start to see that. You start to see that with your friends who are more neurotypical, that they're affected differently, and you're affected differently than they are, and it's because our brains are wired differently.

Katie Fillmore (36:54): Yes, and there's no shame in it.

Shanna Pearson (36:55): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (36:55): And that's o- that's okay, that you're born, uh, you know, with a slightly different wiring. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (37:00): ... exactly!

Katie Fillmore (37:02): than others.

Shanna Pearson (37:02): I compared it in the book, like, i- it was- I don't know if this was good or bad, but I co- in, in my book, I compared it to straight hair and curly hair.

Katie Fillmore (37:12): No, I think it's great.

Shanna Pearson (37:13): (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (37:13): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (37:13): Have you ever known any- have you ever known anyone with, like, really curly hair?

Katie Fillmore (37:17): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (37:18): Like, do you have any girlfriends who have, like...

Katie Fillmore (37:20): And it's such a pain in the butt?

Shanna Pearson (37:21): Yes.

Katie Fillmore (37:22): For them?

Shanna Pearson (37:22): (laughs) So, like, so that's the whole thing. They cannot use brushes like you use-

Katie Fillmore (37:28): Mm

Shanna Pearson (37:28): ... a hairbrush. They can't. They can't use-

Jay Fillmore (37:31): Right

Shanna Pearson (37:31): ... hairbrushes like we use. They can't use the shampoos that we use. They can't use, um, the same, uh, dryer, hair dryers. They have to use a diffuser-

Katie Fillmore (37:39): No

Shanna Pearson (37:39): ... (chuckles) right? They, they have to use all of these different things-

Katie Fillmore (37:43): Yes

Shanna Pearson (37:43): ... for their hair, and 'cause they have curly hair.

Katie Fillmore (37:47): Yeah, I think that's a great analogy, and I think that's, like, spot on, too.

Shanna Pearson (37:50): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (37:50): Because even, even the hygiene practices are different, just because you can't even wash curly hair as frequently usually as straight hair.

Shanna Pearson (37:56): No, you're not even supposed to wash it with shampoo.

Katie Fillmore (37:58): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (37:58): You have to, like, it's just, like, deep conditioning or something, and yeah. (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (38:01): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (38:01): It's totally different. You're right. It's like every part of it is different.

Katie Fillmore (38:04): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (38:05): So kinda like that, like, we're wired differently. Um, some people have different kinds of hair that need different treatments, and we have different... You know, our brains are wired a bit differently, and we have to do things... It doesn't make us deficient, 'cause ADHDers can be insanely successful, but we have to do things differently. We have to use the different, you know, cleansers, and we have to use the different conditioners, and we have to use the, you know, whatever the different products are, and-

Katie Fillmore (38:30): But it's not really a product. It's just a way of doing things.

Shanna Pearson (38:33): Um, and then boom, we're set. 'Cause I, I do think there needs to be so much more education on this in the, you know, doctor's offices, in the workplaces, and even in our own, like, personal homes in the way that we view people with ADHD. Because growing up, ADHD was bad parenting. Like, I mean-

Katie Fillmore (38:49): Oh, yeah

Shanna Pearson (38:49): ... that's what my parents, like, the attitude was, is it was like, "That's a fake diagnosis. That's not even a real thing-"

Katie Fillmore (38:55): Oh, my God!

Shanna Pearson (38:56): "... and that's just bad parenting." And-

Katie Fillmore (38:57): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (38:58): ... you know-

Katie Fillmore (38:58): It's-

Shanna Pearson (38:58): ... like, that, I feel like that still echoes throughout our society, you know, even now.

Jay Fillmore (39:04): Yeah, it-

Shanna Pearson (39:04): It does!

Jay Fillmore (39:05): Yeah. I hear people talking about-

Shanna Pearson (39:06): What do you mean by that?

Jay Fillmore (39:06): ... how just their attention span is short, and they're like, "Oh, it's just my AG- ADHD, da, da, da, da, da." And I'm thinking, after I was diagnosed and everything, I was thinking, you cannot just say that, 'cause that, it is not the same thing. I mean, maybe you have ADHD, but maybe it's just because all of our media, you know, over the decades are the... You know, the clips of movies, the camera shots get shorter and shorter and shorter, and the stimuli become bigger and bigger and bigger. And so even if everybody's collective attention spans are shorter than they were 100 years ago, doesn't mean that everybody has ADHD, just because their attention span's a bit shorter. And so I think people sometimes can say, "Oh, I have a little ADHD," because their attention span's shorter, so but maybe they don't really have it. And they're like, "Oh, well, why can't you get it together, right?" I mean, you say you have ADHD. I think I do, too, but it's just totally two different things.

Shanna Pearson (39:54): It really is, and I feel like, Jay, that's a, i- it's such an important thing for people to realize because ADHD has become almost mainstream talk, and-

Jay Fillmore (40:05): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (40:06): ... it, it's great for business, (laughs) great-

Jay Fillmore (40:09): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (40:09): ... right? But honestly, like, it, it minimizes. It minimizes the, the sh- the... I don't wanna say struggle, 'cause it's such an overused word, but it's a freaking struggle. And even, even someone like me that, like, knows how to manage it, you know, and you guys probably know how to manage it in your way, too, but, like, it's really hard.

Katie Fillmore (40:30): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (40:30): It's really, really hard.

Jay Fillmore (40:32): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (40:32): And for people who, you know, get distracted easily, and our attention spans, like what you were saying, Jay, where it's like everything is getting... It's like everything's in sound bites now. There's such a gigantic influx of information, you know, in our faces every hour. Like, it's nonstop, and everything is co- you're constantly scrolling, and everything is constantly changing, and it's like we're creating, like, such a short attention span, and it's not ADHD.

Katie Fillmore (40:59): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (40:59): You know?

Jay Fillmore (41:00): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (41:00): That is not ADHD.

Jay Fillmore (41:01): That's right.

Katie Fillmore (41:01): Mm-mm.

Shanna Pearson (41:02): (laughs) But b- you know, and so when people say that, it's like, it's nice, and it definitely does, you know, alleviate some of the stigma around ADHD, 'cause it's, like, less embarrassing for people to talk about, but it really minimizes what it, what it, what it feels like and what it is.

Jay Fillmore (41:19): Yeah, that's well said. 'Cause when I- it was- there was much more, like, um, shame might be a strong word, but, like-

Shanna Pearson (41:25): Mm-hmm

Jay Fillmore (41:25): ... there was a lot more of that, I remember, in the la- late 90s and early 2000s, when I remember being in school.

Shanna Pearson (41:30): Yeah.

Jay Fillmore (41:31): I wasn't diagnosed or anything, but I just remember that was kinda, like, the overall environment, and it doesn't seem like that's really there anymore, because it is-

Shanna Pearson (41:37): Right

Jay Fillmore (41:37): ... more mainstream. But then it does feel like, um, people that do have ADHD are not viewed as, "Oh, you're really having to adapt a lot," um, and I don't have to adapt as much as being a neurotypical person, possibly.

Shanna Pearson (41:51): Oh, maybe. Yeah, they might, they might see it like that. They might. But it's never... Like, people always think... That's why, like, you know, the ADHD medications are on, you know, high alert, because everyone's... You know, in college, they're like, "I can't focus for these 90-minute lectures. I must have ADHD." (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (42:08): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (42:08): And so now they're on medication-

Jay Fillmore (42:09): Mm

Shanna Pearson (42:09): ... because they have to sit through these long lectures, and they don't necessarily have ADHD. It might just be unnatural for people to have to focus for 90 minutes straight.

Katie Fillmore (42:18): Yeah, especially in the society-

Shanna Pearson (42:19): (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (42:19): ... that we live in today-

Jay Fillmore (42:20): Good point

Katie Fillmore (42:20): ... because of the way-

Shanna Pearson (42:21): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (42:21): ... that they've manufactured our attention spans to be so short.

Shanna Pearson (42:24): Exactly.

Katie Fillmore (42:24): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (42:24): How on earth do we stare at one person standing at the front of a room for an hour and a half? Like-

Katie Fillmore (42:28): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (42:29): ... who can do that?

Jay Fillmore (42:30): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (42:30): And so it doesn't mean you have to go on medication. It does not mean you have ADHD. It means, you know, we need to be learning a little bit differently.

Jay Fillmore (42:36): Yeah, that's a good point, 'cause we don't parallel that anywhere else outside the classroom, really, to just listen to somebody for 90 minutes, you know, while doing nothing else.

Shanna Pearson (42:44): You know, for, for classes and for, you know, meetings that go on way too long, you actually have to physically be sitting still, and you have to be, like, looking at the person. Like, if you're... If there's somebody, like, standing up and doing jumping jacks in the middle of a lecture, they'll likely have to, you know, be asked to leave.

Katie Fillmore (42:59): Mm-hmm. Yeah.... yeah. (chuckles) So what are some tips that you would have for women with ADHD that they can implement right now to help them with symptoms, or maybe women who suspect they have ADHD? Because some of these women aren't, you know, diagnosed necessarily, but, um, at least from my listeners' pool, I know that they've- a lot of people suspect it, (chuckles) but they, they don't have it officially diagnosed.

Shanna Pearson (43:23): Right.

Katie Fillmore (43:23): So what are some tips that you could offer up?

Shanna Pearson (43:27): I, I think the simplest thing is honestly getting rid of your to-do list.

Katie Fillmore (43:32): Okay, right.

Shanna Pearson (43:33): And because most of us have to-do lists that are, like, 50 items long, and it's-

Katie Fillmore (43:40): Do you? Yeah-

Shanna Pearson (43:41): (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (43:41): I know this man does.

Jay Fillmore (43:42): I-oh-

Katie Fillmore (43:43): Oh, my gosh-

Jay Fillmore (43:43): ... right

Katie Fillmore (43:43): ... he has a whole relationship with his to-do list.

Jay Fillmore (43:45): Yeah, very love-hate. Very love-hate.

Katie Fillmore (43:47): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (43:48): Yeah. So it's very overwhelming, and when, when you look at it, it's just like all you wanna do-

Jay Fillmore (43:56): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (43:56): ... is the easiest thing.

Jay Fillmore (43:57): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (43:57): You know, number one, it's discouraging, 'cause there's a lot on there, and you wanna just do the easiest thing, which may not be the, the highest value thing you could do. So I have a saying that we teach all of our clients, which is, "Keep it to three, and you're free." So I recommend anybody who suspects (chuckles) they might have ADHD or just living in severe overwhelm, to take your to-do list and cut it down to your top three, just three, and that does not eliminate the other, you know, 50,000 things on your list. It just means you're gonna get to them after those three are done.

Katie Fillmore (44:32): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (44:32): And so you start to learn how to... And you eventually, your brain just automatically learns how to do it, rather than just looking at, like, everything all at once, which is what we tend to do. You'll be able to see a smaller amount, and it'll be much easier to focus on it, and, like, just take- just, you know, focus on one at a time. If there's only three things there, you can actually... You know, it's much easier to just be able to do those three, one, two, then three, and that's it. And so, like, that's, like, the- a simple, simple thing that people could do right away, is just get rid of that ridiculous to-do list that's just very discouraging and overwhelming.

Katie Fillmore (45:11): Yeah.

Jay Fillmore (45:12): Can I get your opinion-

Shanna Pearson (45:13): Yeah

Jay Fillmore (45:13): ... on something related to that?

Shanna Pearson (45:14): Of course.

Jay Fillmore (45:15): So I, I switched from using a- just my iPhone, uh, notes app with my to-do list, 'cause I would have Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thurs- and I would see them all at the same time, and I was like-

Shanna Pearson (45:24): Right

Jay Fillmore (45:24): ... "This is too much." So I started using an app called ToD- Todoist, which it just shows me today's list.

Shanna Pearson (45:30): Yeah.

Jay Fillmore (45:30): And then I'm like, "That's better," but it still has, like, eight things on it.

Shanna Pearson (45:34): Oh.

Jay Fillmore (45:34): So then... But it allows you to color coordinate, red-

Shanna Pearson (45:37): Okay

Jay Fillmore (45:37): ... orange, and blue. So I now do, like, my most important ones, which might be just two or three, as red.

Shanna Pearson (45:43): Good.

Jay Fillmore (45:44): And then I don't focus on orange or blue. I don't even look at them-

Shanna Pearson (45:47): Good

Jay Fillmore (45:47): ... until the red's done. So I think-

Shanna Pearson (45:50): Excellent

Jay Fillmore (45:50): ... I think-

Shanna Pearson (45:51): That's exactly-

Jay Fillmore (45:51): The color coding-

Shanna Pearson (45:51): That's perfect

Jay Fillmore (45:52): ... helping my-

Shanna Pearson (45:53): That's great. Now, for some people, they can't even see the orange and blue.

Jay Fillmore (45:57): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (45:57): They don't want to see it. It's not good to see it, because, well, what about the orange? Wait, but what about the blue? (chuckles) So, like-

Katie Fillmore (46:04): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (46:04): ... you're gonna be-

Jay Fillmore (46:04): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (46:04): ... thinking about it. You're gonna be like, "Okay, I'm doing the red, but I'm still thinking about the orange and blue."

Katie Fillmore (46:09): Right.

Shanna Pearson (46:10): So it's-

Jay Fillmore (46:10): That's a good point

Shanna Pearson (46:10): ... just have it- if you only have, like, the red there, and that's all you see, even though the orange and blue are on the next screen, it's, it's, um, it's visually more edible (chuckles) for, for a lot of our clients. It- it's like, it's like everything in your visual, you know, your visual sphere has to be less.

Jay Fillmore (46:29): Got it.

Katie Fillmore (46:30): Mm-hmm. Yeah, you should take that to heart.

Jay Fillmore (46:32): I, I just did.

Katie Fillmore (46:33): (chuckles)

Jay Fillmore (46:33): So when we get a hop off this call, I'm gonna explore my app a little bit. (chuckles)

Katie Fillmore (46:36): (chuckles) Yes, that'll be helpful.

Shanna Pearson (46:38): That's something anyone can do. Apps are interesting, 'cause you have to... I have a love-hate relationship with apps, as I think most of us do, but you have to go on the app to do all of these things, and for a lot of, a lot of my clients, just going on the app is distracting.

Katie Fillmore (46:58): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (46:58): 'Cause now you're-

Katie Fillmore (46:59): Yep

Shanna Pearson (46:59): ... on your phone.

Jay Fillmore (46:59): Oh.

Shanna Pearson (47:00): Now you're on your phone. (chuckles) Like, and now that I'm on it, like, does this ever happen to you? (chuckles)

Katie Fillmore (47:05): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (47:05): Where you're on your app and (chuckles) like-

Jay Fillmore (47:07): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (47:07): ... and then you just go on to something else, and now you've been on your phone literally staring at it for 25 minutes?

Katie Fillmore (47:12): Yeah.

Jay Fillmore (47:13): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (47:14): That happens all the time.

Jay Fillmore (47:15): All the time.

Shanna Pearson (47:15): (chuckles) Okay, so that's why I really love... Like, I know this is gonna sound so old school, but I love old school, because it's so raw and workable. And, you know, when you write the things down, like, you just, like, write, like, two things down on, on this pad of paper, I call it a parking lot in the b- in, in my book. So m- anything that- a f- a thought that flies in, you know, I'll write it down, but my to-do list is never more than two things, right?

Katie Fillmore (47:44): Oh, you can have a thought list-

Shanna Pearson (47:45): And so-

Katie Fillmore (47:45): ... and a to-do list.

Shanna Pearson (47:46): I do have a parking lot thought list-

Jay Fillmore (47:48): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (47:48): ... 'cause otherwise, I'd just get, like, dragged down rabbit holes-

Jay Fillmore (47:51): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (47:51): ... for my thought list. But, I mean, that wasn't actually a to-do list I just showed you. That was more like almost like a shopping (chuckles) list kind of thing.

Jay Fillmore (47:57): Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (47:57): But, but I never have more than two things, and it's on paper, and I can't get lost or taken down rabbit holes on a notebook. Whereas, when I'm on my phone, it's, uh, it's like a kryptonite. (chuckles)

Katie Fillmore (48:12): Yeah.

Jay Fillmore (48:12): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (48:12): Like, like nonstop. (chuckles) Yeah, and so you just lose a lot of valuable time, especially in the mornings, which for a lot of us is a good time of day to get stuff done-

Jay Fillmore (48:21): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (48:21): ... and we're, like, staring at our phones, creating, creating things on our different apps.

Katie Fillmore (48:25): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (48:25): So I'm not saying don't use apps. I'm saying just be aware.

Jay Fillmore (48:29): Yeah, maybe there's some-

Shanna Pearson (48:30): And maybe-

Jay Fillmore (48:30): ... alternatives

Shanna Pearson (48:30): ... you know, there's a couple things that you wanna just write down.

Jay Fillmore (48:33): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (48:33): That's all.

Jay Fillmore (48:33): That's helpful.

Katie Fillmore (48:34): That's good advice. Yeah.

Jay Fillmore (48:35): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (48:35): I am wondering if you can share with us any, um... Like, how can the people in the lives of women with ADHD best support them? Like, if you had to give advice.

Shanna Pearson (48:46): Number one, just be gentle, because the women with ADHD are, are- tend to be... Like, I, I don't know anyone who isn't so f- flippin' hard on themselves.

Katie Fillmore (49:00): Yeah, we're our biggest critics.

Shanna Pearson (49:02): That you never need to-... think that they're not already feeling, if something they did was incorrect or, you know, not good enough or whatever, just know that they know it 100%, even if they're acting like they don't. They know it. And number two, if you're taking care of, like, if it's a parent, right? If, if you're, like, a mom or a dad, and you have a kid who has ADHD, keep things incredibly simple. Never give instructions that have, like, four steps. Give instructions that have two steps, one step at a time. "First do this, then do this. Come back, and I'll tell you the next steps." Otherwise, you're gonna have somebody who's like, "What did you tell me to do?" And it's the same thing for adults, too, not just kids. If you're in- you know, if your, if your spouse has ADHD, just never ex- like, never expect them, just do not expect them to remember a s- a five-step anything that you ask them to do.

Katie Fillmore (50:01): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (50:01): Just don't. Just lose that expectation, and know that they're superstars at the one thing at a time.

Katie Fillmore (50:09): Yeah, that's good.

Jay Fillmore (50:09): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (50:10): That's true, and we can adopt that for our own children. My kids can't-

Shanna Pearson (50:13): I know

Katie Fillmore (50:13): ... do more than two at a time, ironically.

Jay Fillmore (50:16): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (50:16): And that-

Shanna Pearson (50:17): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (50:17): ... is what I see work out all the time. It's like-

Shanna Pearson (50:19): There you go

Katie Fillmore (50:20): ... the third thing always.

Shanna Pearson (50:20): So the piece of concept.

Katie Fillmore (50:21): Yeah. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (50:22): Yeah, but we have these expectations that everyone's like us. You know?

Katie Fillmore (50:26): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (50:26): Like, if I don't- if I'm a neurotypical, then everyone... You know, and then why can't you just do whatever, like what I can do? Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (50:32): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (50:32): No, we can't, but we're gonna be freaking amazing at doing it our way, you know?

Katie Fillmore (50:36): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (50:36): Which is-

Jay Fillmore (50:37): Right

Shanna Pearson (50:37): ... less is really more. So we do this for our clients all the time. We break everything down into small steps, and these people are, like, you know, in their 40s and 50s, and they've, they've accomplished, you know, a few good things, but not nearly as much as they want to. And by breaking everything down, first of all, it makes us nervous, 'cause it's like, "Well, how am I gonna accomplish anything if you're making me do these really little steps? I'm never gonna get what I want, because I need it all yesterday (chuckles) or last month."

Jay Fillmore (51:05): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (51:05): But by breaking it down, we accomplish so much more than we could ever imagine. Like, in one year, you're gonna be in, in a completely different place if you start doing less at a time, to just, like, one or two things, then one or two things, and it builds.

Jay Fillmore (51:21): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (51:21): And you're just gonna... You will take off. I know that, because that's how we, that's how we do it with our clients. Like, everything is, like, broken down, and everyone gets nervous. Like, "I can't do such small things. I'm never gonna amount to what I want. (chuckles) I'm never gonna achieve what I want," but it- that's exactly how you achieve what you want.

Jay Fillmore (51:39): That's great advice.

Katie Fillmore (51:39): That is great advice. I'm personally curious, how does one become an ADHD coach?

Shanna Pearson (51:45): You become an ADHD coach by coaching people who have ADHD.

Katie Fillmore (51:49): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (51:49): And that's it. Whether you wanna get certified or, you know, apply to work for our company (chuckles) or, you know, apply to- or just do your own thing, just do it your way, in the way that you think works for people. So, like, we're pretty directive. We're happy to tell people what to do, as long as they, you know, agree that that's something they wanna do (chuckles) right?

Katie Fillmore (52:08): Right.

Shanna Pearson (52:08): Or, uh, yeah, if they want to, like, amazing, and then we're gonna help you do it. But we will tell you because we know how our moods dictate our reality.

Katie Fillmore (52:18): I love that so much, because that is so true, and that is exactly what I would want from a coach. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (52:24): Right?

Katie Fillmore (52:25): I would-

Shanna Pearson (52:25): That's what I would want, too.

Katie Fillmore (52:26): Yes, yes.

Shanna Pearson (52:26): Just tell me... Somebody tell me what to do!

Katie Fillmore (52:28): Yes, please.

Shanna Pearson (52:29): You know?

Katie Fillmore (52:29): Tell me.

Shanna Pearson (52:30): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (52:30): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (52:30): Exactly.

Katie Fillmore (52:31): Cool.

Shanna Pearson (52:31): Exactly. There you go.

Katie Fillmore (52:33): Well, we can go ahead and wrap this up. I really appreciate you being here.

Shanna Pearson (52:35): Yeah.

Katie Fillmore (52:35): I had so much fun talking to you, and-

Shanna Pearson (52:38): Same

Katie Fillmore (52:38): ... um, as a reminder, the book Invisible ADHD is coming out September 9th, and I will link... I love it. (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (52:45): (laughs)

Katie Fillmore (52:46): I, I also love the cover, the artwork-

Jay Fillmore (52:47): Yeah, me too

Katie Fillmore (52:47): ... all of it. I will link in the show notes your website, and you're not on social media, right? Okay, I just wanna-

Shanna Pearson (52:54): No, I know, I'm not crazy. I know.

Katie Fillmore (52:55): I- no, I, I thought so, so I just wanted to verify that. So I will-

Shanna Pearson (52:59): Yeah

Katie Fillmore (52:59): ... link that.

Shanna Pearson (53:00): Yay!

Katie Fillmore (53:00): Thank you so much. It was so great meeting you.

Jay Fillmore (53:02): Yes.

Katie Fillmore (53:02): And I'm gonna continue-

Jay Fillmore (53:03): It was really nice

Katie Fillmore (53:03): ... reading your book, and I'll share it with him. (laughs)

Jay Fillmore (53:05): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (53:05): Awesome. Yay.

Katie Fillmore (53:05): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (53:06): Yeah, you have to, for sure.

Host (53:08): I hope for those of you listening, something was intriguing, or sparked a curiosity, or you felt affirmed or challenged. (upbeat music) Stay educated. Take the pink pill. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give us a follow, and maybe a nice review.

Transcribed from the episode audio.