Why So Many Women Live with Undiagnosed ADHD

On episode 718 of Passion Struck, John R. Miles talks with Shanna Pearson, founder of Expert ADHD Coaching and author of Invisible ADHD, about why ADHD in women so often goes unseen: the hyperactivity tends to stay inside their heads, and the questionnaires doctors use for anxiety and depression don’t look for it.

Shanna describes her own childhood and the diagnosis she finally got as an adult, and John asks about strategies from the book.

In this episode

• Why the publisher asked for a book for women, and why Shanna wanted every tool from her coaching program in one accessible place
• Ruminating, catastrophizing and daydreaming as hyperactivity on the inside, and how screening for anxiety or depression leads to a misdiagnosis
• Growing up silent and feeling out of step, a misdiagnosis of depression, and the ADHD specialist who asked for her report cards from kindergarten
• What years of “Why can’t you just?” do to a child’s self-esteem, and why it bothers Shanna when ADHD is called a superpower
• Why ADHD brains are drawn to drama, and why medication helps you focus but not on the right things
• Doing your hardest tasks when your brain is most engaged, physical state changes to get back on track, and doing less at a time with one focus a week

Episode links

• The episode page on passionstruck.com, with show notes
• The video on YouTube, with chapter times
• Apple Podcasts and Spotify, where the audio is titled “Why Adult ADHD in Women Often Goes Undiagnosed”

Transcript

This transcript follows the video above. Times are minutes and seconds into it. The video opens with a short clip from later in the conversation. The audio version runs about eight minutes longer, so its times differ.

Shanna Pearson (0:00): it bothers me when people refer to (chuckles) ADHD as a superpower. It really does, because there's nothing about ADHD that makes life easier. It's difficult to manage ADHD on so many levels, like in your relationships, career, personal health, name it. And so when people are like, "Oh, it's a superpower, you should be able to do, like, all of these things so much." "Like, you've got this," and you know you don't, (chuckles) and you know that life is really hard, and you know that you're struggling, and you know you're working 100 times harder than every single human you know, and longer (chuckles) than anyone you know. There's no superpower, and so then you just kind of feel like there's something else that's wrong with you because you can't even use your superpower. You don't even know where it is. Like, where's the superpower part of this? (upbeat music)

John R. Miles (0:49): I am absolutely thrilled today to welcome Shanna Pearson to Passion Struck. Welcome, Shanna, how are you today?

Shanna Pearson (0:55): I am doing fantastic. Thanks, John. How are you?

John R. Miles (0:58): Well, I'm a little bit jealous-

Shanna Pearson (0:59): (laughing)

John R. Miles (0:59): ... 'cause you live in one of my favorite places I've ever lived, San Diego. I think the only place I liked more than that was the time I spent in Sydney, Australia, which to me-

Shanna Pearson (1:09): Oh, my goodness

John R. Miles (1:09): ... is very similar to San Diego in many ways.

Shanna Pearson (1:12): That's really funny you say that. We had a choice. We could have gone anywhere, but it ended up being boiled down to two places, and one was San Diego, and the other one was Sydney. (chuckles)

John R. Miles (1:22): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (1:22): My husband wanted to go to Sydney. (chuckles)

John R. Miles (1:25): Man, it was a fun time.

Shanna Pearson (1:27): Yeah. Wow.

John R. Miles (1:27): The thing I love about the Australians is they work extremely hard, but they play just as hard as they work, which was-

Shanna Pearson (1:34): Totally

John R. Miles (1:34): ... was really fun getting to explore, uh, all parts of that country.

Shanna Pearson (1:38): Wow, that's... I wanna go. That's one place I have never been that I'm dying to go to.

John R. Miles (1:44): I want to start out to talking to you about your book. So you have a new book-

Shanna Pearson (1:50): (chuckles)

John R. Miles (1:51): ... that you must be absolutely-

Shanna Pearson (1:53): (laughing)

John R. Miles (1:53): ... thrilled about, Invisible ADHD. It's right behind you, for those who are watching this. What does it feel to have this book come out in the world?

Shanna Pearson (2:02): Honestly, it feels like a huge relief, which is interesting, because it's been very difficult to write a book. So the process has been very stressful, but the reason, the reason I wrote this book... They came to me. I did not want to write a book. I never had intended to write a book, but we have- my coaching company is quite large, and we're out there, and I think people know what we do. And then the publisher, Macmillan, they came to me and asked if I would write this book, and they would- and they asked if I would write it for women, and I said, "Why? We work with men (chuckles) and women equally, and why would we wanna just close it off to women?" And they just said they wanted it for women, maybe because there's not a tremendous amount out there specifically for women.

(2:46) But the reason I said yes to the offer to write this book (chuckles) was over the past many years, there's a lot of people that come to us asking for help and desperately needing help, and I feel like when they finally reach out to a coaching company like ours, there's a lot of pain in their life. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot that has to happen-

John R. Miles (3:07): Right

Shanna Pearson (3:07): ... behind the scenes for them to actually look into it, and then press the button, and then get on the call, and there's so much. And so there's just so many people in so much pain, and there's so many people who we speak to that cannot participate in our coaching program for a lot of different reasons, and often it's affordability, but there's other reasons as well. It could just be timing, and when I read their forms, and then they can't do it, and then they write these emails of how much they need it and how much they wish they could, for me, it's honestly heartbreaking. It really is, because the whole reason I do this is just to help people, and then to think that there's so many people that want it, that just can't have it, is distressing.

(3:50) When they asked me to write this book, it was an instant, "I just want everything that we do, I want all of our tools, I want all of the magic, and all of the how we do what we do in a very accessible place, and just give it away." (chuckles) People have to buy a book, but just put it out there. I'm not gonna do this, where it's one tool, and then I'm gonna write a second book, and then a third book. No, just put it out there. I want people to have these tools so badly. I know that they're gonna work, and so now that the book is done, I'm- I, I feel this anticipation for, and excitement for what's gonna happen for people when they actually read it, and then when they actually start implementing some of the things that are in here.

(4:28) I'm excited.

John R. Miles (4:30): Well, congratulations. I know just-

Shanna Pearson (4:33): (exhales)

John R. Miles (4:33): ... what it takes. I published my first one February of 2024.

Shanna Pearson (4:37): (laughing)

John R. Miles (4:37): In the process of selecting a publisher right now for the next nonfiction book, which is written.

Shanna Pearson (4:42): Oh, wow!

John R. Miles (4:43): So at least that part is behind me.

Shanna Pearson (4:45): Okay, good.

John R. Miles (4:46): I-

Shanna Pearson (4:46): That's huge. (laughing) That's the biggest part.

John R. Miles (4:48): And then I actually have a children's book coming out later this year that really focuses on the topic of mattering.

Shanna Pearson (4:56): Beautiful.

John R. Miles (4:56): It's called You Matter, Luma, and-

Shanna Pearson (4:58): I love that

John R. Miles (4:59): ... I have to tell you, I thought that was 10 times harder than writing a nonfiction book, because you have to whittle down your writing to, and realize how to intersect it with the illustrations, which, having never written one before, was more difficult than I ever thought it was gonna be.

Shanna Pearson (5:17): Mm, yeah.

John R. Miles (5:17): It was so difficult, I decided once I figured it out, I'll just write all 10 books in the series, so that's what I did.

Shanna Pearson (5:23): Oh, my goodness! Good for you.

John R. Miles (5:25): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (5:25): That's amazing. (laughing) That's amazing. I'm like, "Okay, I've written this book. There's- I will- there, there will likely never be another book written by me, and will- I will never be able to go through this process again." It took forever, and it's just... Like what you're talking about with matching illustrations, for, for people with ADHD, every single symptom is connected to every other symptom. There's no- you can't pull them apart and be like, you know, your time management is separate from organization, or separate from impulsivity, 'cause they're all related. So breaking them into chapters was next to impossible. Like, how do you separate these ideas when they're all-

John R. Miles (6:04): Right

Shanna Pearson (6:04): ... the same thing?

John R. Miles (6:05): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (6:05): But anyway, yeah, I understand. (laughing)

John R. Miles (6:09): ... Well, speaking of children, when my son was young, he was diagnosed with ADHD, and he had what you typically would think of ADHD. He was extremely hyperactive, like a lot of-

Shanna Pearson (6:24): Mm

John R. Miles (6:24): ... boys are.

Shanna Pearson (6:25): Yeah.

John R. Miles (6:25): I think in some ways he's grown out of it as he's gotten older, but i- in the introduction of the book, you write, "Most people associate ADHD with hyperactivity, but for many women, a lot of the hyperactivity is internal, and therefore-

Shanna Pearson (6:41): Yeah

John R. Miles (6:41): ... totally invisible."

Shanna Pearson (6:43): Yeah.

John R. Miles (6:43): So I wanna follow that quote up with the fact that you've called ADHD a hidden epidemic. Why are so many women in particular living with ADHD invisibly?

Shanna Pearson (6:56): Oh, because there's a lot of reasons, and I think it's really important for everyone to understand this. Women- ADHD presents itself in women, like what was said at the beginning of the book, it's a hyperactivity internally, and so it's really nonstop ruminating, catastrophizing, daydreaming, and d- really just being everywhere else in your mind except for, quote, unquote, "Where you're supposed to be." And when you're like that for your whole life, because when you have ADHD, you're born with it. It's not something you develop. So when you're like that for your whole life, you're struggling in so many areas. You struggle in relationships because, you know, it's hard to be present with other people when you're internally nonstop in your brain. In your school life, it's hard to pay attention in class because you tend to be paying attention on everything else that's a lot more engaging and exciting.

(7:49) And in your career, it's the same thing. You really wanna do well, you really wanna pay attention to things, and you do. You pay attention to certain things, but not everything, and it affects us in our careers. And so when you're going through your life like this and you don't know why, that's the big piece, is you don't know what's going on. You don't know you have ADHD. You believe that there's something wrong with you, and you believe that... And you don't know what it is, and you're, like, on a different frequency as everyone around you at the same times, right? So you're just missing things. People are, like, talking over there, and you're, like, hearing it over here. I don't know if that makes sense, but I hope it does.

(8:27) You don't feel great about yourself, and you start to worry. So then we go to our doctor, and we tell- or a specialist, and we'll tell them what's going on with us, and the immediate response is usually to give a woman a self-assessment for anxiety or depression. And so when we answer the, the questions on those self-assessments, it shows up that we have anxiety or depression when we don't, because the symptoms are so overlapping. Almost all of the symptoms overlap, and we're not automatically given an assessment for ADHD, and so that's a big deal. So now we're being misdiagnosed. A lot of millions of women with ADHD have been diagnosed or misdiagnosed with depression, and it's just missed because our symptoms are not as focused on executive function and organization, 'cause some of us are extremely well-organized.

(9:25) It's not the same kind of symptoms, and so it gets missed. It gets missed a lot.

John R. Miles (9:33): So what was interesting as I was going through your story, you and I, very different stories, very different upbringings, but we had one thing in common: we both felt essentially invisible. And you write in the book, "No one even knew what was going on with me, not my teachers, not my parents, not even me." In my case, I felt invisible because when I was five years old, and I've told this story many times on the podcast, but, uh, I got pushed from behind playing tag, got thrown through a basement window, and had a pretty severe traumatic brain injury-

Shanna Pearson (10:06): Mm

John R. Miles (10:06): ... and everything changed. I had a speech impediment.

Shanna Pearson (10:10): Yeah.

John R. Miles (10:10): All of a sudden, vision got impacted. I had cognitive issues. So I shrunk inside myself because I just felt different. Kids were treating me different, and so I became this shell of who I was before, uh, until I was able to break out of it. Can you take us back to those early years when ADHD was shaping your life before anyone recognized it?

Shanna Pearson (10:36): That would be so difficult. It was... I feel like in, in my early years, I was... Number one, I was silent. I have kids, and when my daughter was in kindergarten, there was a girl in her class who had something called selective mutism-

John R. Miles (10:55): Hmm

Shanna Pearson (10:55): ... and I guess that's, like, a newish term (chuckles) from 2011 or 2012, but I, I had that. I never spoke a word for years when I was outside of my home, and I felt like there was just something so off with me, and I never- I just didn't fit in with girls or with boys, and I was always at a different speed. I was always past wherever they were, if that makes any sense. So they were talking about something, and I was always, like, a year ahead of them, (chuckles) even though I wasn't. (chuckles) Right? Even though I was actually way behind them. And it's just... I just wanted to hide, and I did. I just tried to blend into the walls and not say a word and not get found out. For what? I have no idea.

John R. Miles (11:40): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (11:40): But it was like that for years. It was like that for years. I was- it was like I was embarrassed to be seen.

John R. Miles (11:45): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (11:45): Those were my early years with ADHD. You know what? I don't wanna be quoted on this, but it's like being in a different universe as a human. (chuckles) And you're in this universe with these other beings, and you don't belong there, and you don't wanna get found out.

John R. Miles (12:00): Well, I have a daughter who's got a sensory processing disorder, and wh- which is different than ADHD, but in some ways, the two kinda go hand in hand, I would think-

Shanna Pearson (12:10): They do overlap

John R. Miles (12:10): ... in different cases.

Shanna Pearson (12:11): Yeah.

John R. Miles (12:12): But she- just seeing how much harder-... she has had to work to keep up with her classmates, and how she has learned to overcome, but it takes her so much more effort. It's interesting to see how we end up compensating and then overcoming the difficulties we had. You've, yourself, Shanna, described yourself as the poster child for extreme ADHD. Was there a moment that finally led you to your diagnosis?

Shanna Pearson (12:42): (chuckles) There was, and I wanted to say one thing about your daughter. Is it okay? Because what I've noticed-

John R. Miles (12:49): Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (12:50): What I've noticed after working with as many people, uh, 'cause I've learned a lot (chuckles) running my company, 'cause we have a coaching company, and it's only for adults who have ADHD, so we always see the after. We don't work with kids. We see what happens with people after (chuckles) living with ADHD for this long, and one thing I can tell you for sure is that there is a huge difference with people who had a harder time in school compared to people that had- that just flew by and got A's in their sleep, and the difference is, like, remarkable. The people that had to work really hard, in general, at least in my world, where people are coming in in their 30s, 40s, 50s, the people that had to work really hard tend to be doing a little bit better or a lot better in their careers. They tend to just... And it's like that, having that work ethic.

John R. Miles (13:42): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (13:42): And the people that flew by (chuckles) are the ones that are, are still trying to fly by and aren't able to anymore. They can't get away with just being, you know, just having things coming easily for them. And I think it's the same... Honestly, I think it's the same. I had to work so much harder than everyone I knew, everyone, and I was so angry about it when I was a teenager and when I was in college, but I, I think I'm doing a lot better than a lot of those people (laughing) -

John R. Miles (14:09): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (14:09): - that, that had it much easier. Now, like, at, at the end of the day, I, I know I am, and so I guess I'm grateful in, in some way. I guess that happened for a reason, because it definitely taught me how to do things and get things done and go for it. (laughing)

John R. Miles (14:24): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (14:25): Yeah, so I just want you to know, like, for your daughter, I don't know how old she is, but there's definitely a light at the end.

John R. Miles (14:32): Well, she's a senior in, in college, and she went on to UF, and she-

Shanna Pearson (14:35): There you go!

John R. Miles (14:36): ... she's done really well for herself.

Shanna Pearson (14:38): And she will continue to, 'cause once college ends, like, that's when the real fun begins, right? (laughing)

John R. Miles (14:42): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (14:43): Soon you're trying to hold on to a job. (laughing) Yeah. No, she's gonna do fantastic.

John R. Miles (14:49): So can you take us back to what finally led to your diagnosis?

Shanna Pearson (14:53): A catastrophic event that, uh, that happened in my life is what actually sent me to get a, a diagnosis. My life in my 30s was extremely tumultuous, dramatic, but not in a good way, and I was just like: "When is this gonna end? When is this gonna end? (chuckles) When is this gonna become easier?" And I was moving a lot. I was literally changing cities at least every year. I was changing boyfriends (chuckles) about every year as well, and nothing felt good. And in one of my relationships, s- something happened that was just where you go to bed thinking you're one person, and you wake up in a completely different reality. I don't know if that's ever happened to you, but that happened to me, and-

John R. Miles (15:40): Yeah, I've experienced that before.

Shanna Pearson (15:42): Yeah. So my life just got turned upside down in the worst way possible, and my whole identity just went, "Who am I? What..." That was not me, and I had to move back to my parents' house, where they were in a different city as I was, and when I was in that city, I was talking to a friend who was also back in his house, visiting his parents, not for the same reasons I was, but he was also in between. He was, like, in between jobs. And, and I was talking to him about what had happened, 'cause I needed some help. His dad happened to be... His dad is a psychiatrist, and so that was just lucky that I happened to be at his house, telling him everything that was going on. His dad was overhearing us and literally just asked me straight up, "Have you ever been diagnosed with ADHD?" (chuckles)

John R. Miles (16:28): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (16:29): And I was just like, "What?" In my experience, that, that was something that kids had. In my experience, 'cause I used to... I had a job where I was working with kids, and there was the teachers that were like, "This one needs this medication, this one needs that medication." (chuckles) I'm like, "Okay." But he asked me about that by myself, and I was like, "What?" And but it wasn't so off when I heard him say it, so I went with him to his clinic, and he had a woman diagnose me, but she misdiagnosed me with depression, because my symptoms were for sure... When I did the self-assessment, my life was really rock bottom at that point, and I for sure presented as depressed. She (chuckles) diagnosed me with depression, put me on antidepressants.

(17:11) Those actually made me depressed. So then he t- he... I asked him if there was anything else. "Is there... I don't think this is it. Is there something else? Like, can you send me somewhere else?" And so he did. He sent me to a, an ADHD specialist, who literally spent, like, a total of seven or eight hours with me over two days and dove right into my history, like, all of my... He wanted my report cards from kindergarten. He wanted my whole job history, my relationship history-

John R. Miles (17:36): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (17:36): ... everything, and he was just like, "You are... I have..." He literally said, "I've never met anyone like you. You are the poster child- (chuckles)

John R. Miles (17:44): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (17:44): - for the most extreme ADHD possible." And that was it, and when he told me why, it was just like, that made sense, that made sense, that made... It all made sense. I was like, "Wow, that's it! Wow, I didn't even know that was something adults had," which was-

John R. Miles (17:59): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (17:59): ... Sounds really silly to say that right now, but yeah, that's what happened, so I'm grateful.

John R. Miles (18:05): I remember when I was working at Lowe's, there was an executive director who worked for me and had been employed at Lowe's for a while, and he had a lackluster reputation. Moments that he shined, there were moments that he flatlined, and I noticed when he was working with- for me directly, that was the reputation I had before he came to work for me, and I had seen a little bit of it, but the time that he worked with me-... He, he was really sharp. He was really on point. I didn't really see that rollercoaster that other people had seen, but then-

Shanna Pearson (18:42): That's cool

John R. Miles (18:43): ... one of my peers happened to go into his office and happened to see on his desk that he had a prescription bottle on it that was a prescription for Adderall.

Shanna Pearson (18:54): Okay.

John R. Miles (18:54): And I remember this peer then telling a number of the other peer group, there were five of us, that this guy was taking Adderall, and they started to joke about it, and then he got labeled. Wh- why do you think that happens, and what are your thoughts on that?

Shanna Pearson (19:13): Why do I think that people joke about it?

John R. Miles (19:17): Well, I mean, because to me, ADHD has been around now as a major diagnosis for decades.

Shanna Pearson (19:24): Yeah.

John R. Miles (19:24): And it's not like this is something new, et cetera, and, and this probably happened at this point maybe 12, 13 years ago.

Shanna Pearson (19:31): Okay.

John R. Miles (19:32): But it still-

Shanna Pearson (19:33): Okay

John R. Miles (19:33): ... seems like it gets stereotyped.

Shanna Pearson (19:35): It does, and there's still stigma. We have men who don't want their wives to know in our company. This is all hush. They're- they come for coaching, and we can't... 'Cause we love involving family members. I feel like it's extremely helpful to have whoever you're living with join your coaching sessions at least every four, five, six weeks, please, so we can all be on the same page, and everybody knows what's going on, and they can help support. But there are a lot of people that just don't want anyone to know at all, and I think it's just... I don't know why people would laugh at that. It's like laughing at somebody who has an inhaler on their desk, and it's just... Except for the fact that ADHD was associated with children, like what we were talking about before, and maybe that's what they were laughing at is, like, "Oh, he's like a big kid," 'cause we hear that a lot.

(20:24) But the fact is that a lot of people just don't want people to think that there's anything wrong with them, and so if there's a prescription on your desk at work, it's, uh, for some people, it would be a sign of weakness. "There's something wrong with me. I was born with a deficit. (chuckles) I need to take-"

John R. Miles (20:44): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (20:44): ... something to help fix it," which obviously to me is completely ridiculous because every single one of us (chuckles) is missing something on some level in some area of life. There's not a single human who isn't.

John R. Miles (20:56): Right.

Shanna Pearson (20:56): And so I still think that, but people, like, especially people who really need to wear that mask and, and look like a leader, especially people in very high-up positions, they don't want to be found out because then people will blame this part of their life on-

John R. Miles (21:18): Right

Shanna Pearson (21:18): ... They'll just, "Well, we can't trust you. (chuckles) You're not reliable. You're not this, you're not that." So I think that's... I think it's awful that people would laugh at that, but obviously people are people, and they do (chuckles) awful things. But it's just, as far as we go, as far as the people who have any ADHD or anything, know that there's no human on the planet that's not lacking something that you have. There just isn't, and so you need to know that deeply, regardless of whether you're taking medication for whatever-

John R. Miles (21:49): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (21:49): ... you need or not. At the end of the day, we're all in the same boat.

John R. Miles (21:55): So I wanna change this scenario to the parents who are listening. So maybe they have a child-

Shanna Pearson (22:00): Yeah

John R. Miles (22:01): ... who's got, maybe they haven't been diagnosed yet, or maybe they know, but they're still struggling with it. So I'm sure they're-

Shanna Pearson (22:08): Mm

John R. Miles (22:08): ... asking their kids questions like you got asked: "Why can't you just pay attention? Why can't you-

Shanna Pearson (22:13): (laughing)

John R. Miles (22:13): ... just finish? Why can't you stop interrupting? Why can't you get better grades?" What do you recommend for those parents, and what is the damage that's done when those types of questions are continually asked?

Shanna Pearson (22:27): The first part of my book, as I think, was why can't you just? (chuckles) I grew up with "why can't you just" in my head forever, probably until I left for university, and the fact is your child does not know why they can't just. They don't know, and they would like to know, (chuckles) but they don't. So it doesn't make sense to ask them. We need to know as adults that they can't just, period. And when you have... If you're raising a kid, and it's in your mind, 'cause, you know, you're able to remember certain things, and you can put stuff away, and you can remember your work or homework or whatever, why can't your kid just? If you suspect your child has ADHD or any kind of learning difference, they just can't just, and there's m- methods and tools and systems that will help them to be able to do these things for sure.

(23:23) But until they've got those locked down, now you know why, or you might know why now, they can't just, and so now it's up for you (chuckles) as a parent to, to be able to help them and possibly turn it around and ask yourself, "Why can't I just help my kid be able to do this in a different way than I do it?" Because their brain is wired differently, they need to do things in a different way. So I feel like it's really helpful for parents-

John R. Miles (23:53): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (23:53): ... who tend to say, "Why can't you just" a lot to just start being like, "Well, why can't I just?"

John R. Miles (23:57): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (23:57): And, no, but it's really important because a child raised underneath, and I was, (chuckles) and probably a lot... Maybe you were, too, raised inside of why can't you just, it, it knocks your self-esteem so severely, and you can't recover from that. You can't. You can go to therapy for decades, and you can do all the personal development you want, but your self-esteem-

John R. Miles (24:22): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (24:22): ... is going to be hurt for the rest of your life. So we have to do everything as parents to really help our kids see what they can do and what they can do extremely well, so that they want to do even better.

John R. Miles (24:39): ... Yeah, so for that same parent, or maybe someone who suspects someone that they're working with at their job has ADHD, for that person who has it, how does it affect their confidence and their relationships? You just talked a little bit about this, about how it ends up shaping you if those questions are asked, but what does it really do for your self-confidence and your ability to connect with other people?

Shanna Pearson (25:06): I feel like the number one thing that affects us in terms of our relationships is growing up and spending your entire childhood, and possibly young adulthood, feeling misunderstood by everyone. Because like I was saying at the beginning, we literally do exist on a different frequency, and I think anyone with ADHD is gonna attest to this. We're in a different place. (chuckles) Whether we're up here or down here, we're never like this with people. And so when you always feel misunderstood, you become- number one, obviously, it hurts your self-esteem, but you become quite reactive. And I don't know if your son is like this, but we're always like this trigger constantly, and you over-explain, and you overreact, and 'cause you're just being mis- if anybody doesn't understand one thing, you feel like they're just not understanding all of it, and they're not understanding you, and you're not...

(26:01) Now they don't like you anymore, and just it goes so deep. And so we tend to, people with ADHD, have a tougher time in relationships because of- uh, just because of this underlying belief that no one's gonna really understand me. No one understands me. Sometimes I don't understand me. And so it's really hard to be completely connected to another person when you feel like they're never gonna understand you. And so fights become bigger, arguments become more frequent, and it's hard.

John R. Miles (26:34): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (26:34): It's hard. That's why it bothers me when people refer to (chuckles) ADHD as a superpower. It really does, because there's nothing about ADHD that makes life easier, and it's difficult to manage ADHD on so many levels, like in your relationships, career, personal health, name it. And so when people are like: "Oh, it's a superpower, you should be able to do, like, all of these things so much. You've got this!" And no you don't. (chuckles) And you know that life is really hard, and you know that you're struggling, and you know you're working 100 times harder than every single human, and longer (chuckles) than anyone. There's no superpower, and so then you just feel like there's something else that's wrong with you because you can't even use your superpower. You don't even know where it is. Like, where's the superpower part of this?

John R. Miles (27:20): So o- one of the things that you explore in chapter six, uh, you write that: ADHD brains often unconsciously create drama. And-

Shanna Pearson (27:29): Yeah

John R. Miles (27:29): ... I had this interview a couple years ago with my friend, uh, Dr. Scott Lyons-

Shanna Pearson (27:33): Mm

John R. Miles (27:33): ... he wrote this book, Addicted to Drama.

Shanna Pearson (27:35): Yeah.

John R. Miles (27:36): W- w- why do ADHD brains create this drama, and how does it show up?

Shanna Pearson (27:43): So it's really interesting, because not a lot of people talk about this, the need for drama and the love for drama and ADHD. And it is definitely one of the symptoms, especially for women, but also for men. The reason is very simple. If you think about how, you know, how newspapers work, right?

John R. Miles (28:04): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (28:05): Like the, "if it bleeds, it leads," right? And so anything that's, like, high intensity and interesting and engaging is gonna grab our attention. It's gonna grab your attention, whether you have ADHD or not. And drama is engaging. Drama is exciting, even when it's negative drama, even when it's, like, constantly bad, and, like, travesties happening in my love life (chuckles) and in my job, and I got fired again, and can you believe it? And all of this stuff that people are, like, walking around, it's like every single time you see them, you're like, "Okay, what happened this time?" Drama kind of follows them around-

John R. Miles (28:40): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (28:40): ... because they're somewhat unconsciously not attracted in a good way, but it's almost like a magnet. Like, they're just drawn to it because of the stimulus. It's engaging, it's exciting, it keeps us engaged, it turns on our brain, and it helps us feel balanced on some level (chuckles) even though it can be, and it usually is, negative. So it's really important (chuckles) to-

John R. Miles (29:06): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (29:06): ... if you, if this is, like, something that, that you tend to fall into, it's just really good to know. And then you can start to realize, okay, we love stimulus. (chuckles) We love the, quote-unquote, "dopamine hits," and always being, like, on. 'Cause when you know people who are in, like, this drama state, they're on.

John R. Miles (29:24): Right.

Shanna Pearson (29:24): They're not, they're not, like, half asleep when they're telling you about it. They're usually, like, angry or excited. There's, like, a high emotion that goes along with it. And so if it's you and you do this, or someone who does, there, there are ways (chuckles) to re- I would say, to replace the negative drama and the negative stimulus for things that are more positive, and you have to do that intentionally. But if you intentionally replace it, and we do this with our clients every single week, this is, like, one of the big things we do, because we can't just have an empty space, 'cause if you have an empty space in your life, you're gonna fill it with (chuckles) something, and usually it's not a great thing that you'll fill it with.

(30:06) So we intentionally create it with something positive, so you have that positive mental and emotional engagement instead of the typical drama that (chuckles) you tend to follow or that tends to follow you. And so slowly, it's not that slowly, actually, it would usually only takes a few months, not a few years, a few months, you'll start to see that as you're intentionally putting positive stimulus into your life, it- it starts to take over the negative.

John R. Miles (30:34): I've always pondered this question. You hear a lot of people say that modern life and-... digital evolution is just making us more ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (30:44): Oh, yeah. (chuckles)

John R. Miles (30:45): This is just a natural coping skill that we have. Do you think it's that, or do you think it's just spotlighting patterns that have been there that we weren't recognizing before?

Shanna Pearson (30:58): Yes, (chuckles) and yes. (laughing)

John R. Miles (31:01): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (31:01): So yes. The amount of nonstop information, and content, and engagement that we have access to is mind-blowing. The fact that you can't even watch the final credits on a movie at home, you can't watch them. You just watched this whole movie, and as the credits are going down, and you're- and at the beginning, it's showing you the next movie. You can't even come down off the one movie you were watching before you're, like, going into the next movie, and then click now to watch now, and then it's just nonstop. And so it is creating... It's not creating ADHD, so I need to say that very clearly. It is not, because we're born with ADHD. Our brains naturally have lower levels of dopamine, whether it's because we have less or because l- whether it's because less is absorbed, we don't know, but we have less dopamine, period.

(31:57) Now, (chuckles) the f- that's ADHD, but the fact is that a lot of people have ADHD symptoms just because we are habitually wiring ourselves right now to need constant engagement and stimulus. And so when there's, like, a moment of quiet, we don't know what to do. Something's missing. Something's missing, and so, like, we look for something, and it's usually, again, not a good thing. (clears throat) It's another movie, or another game, or another relationship, (chuckles) or another drug, or whatever you wanna fill it with. We're looking for something because we are now being wired to constantly- there's this constant noise, and when the volume is down, it's not comfortable for a lot of us. So it's not ADHD, but it, it's definitely that need for more stimulus.

John R. Miles (32:46): I wanna go back to talking about Adderall and other medications, 'cause in chapter four you go into this, and you say, "Pills don't teach skills," but I wanna just do a personal story on this.

Shanna Pearson (32:59): Yeah.

John R. Miles (32:59): A while back, I dated a woman who had been taking Adderall since she was probably in middle school, and she had reached a point where her doses kept going up, and up, and up.

Shanna Pearson (33:10): Hmm.

John R. Miles (33:10): But when I was dating her, she told me that she couldn't function without being on the drugs, and that really always scared me because to, to me, a drug is exactly that.

Shanna Pearson (33:23): Yeah.

John R. Miles (33:23): It's almost you're taking a depression drug, but to really treat the depression, you have to develop skills to, to master it. I would think the same thing is true with ADHD. So wh- why do skills matter so much? And-

Shanna Pearson (33:38): Oh, wow!

John R. Miles (33:39): ... what's your-

Shanna Pearson (33:39): Yeah.

John R. Miles (33:39): Yeah, (chuckles) and what's your recommendation? What do you coach people on?

Shanna Pearson (33:43): Okay, this is a huge topic, and skills are everything because (chuckles) number one, if... Okay, so number one, medication, let's talk about that. The medication that tends to be prescribed for people with ADHD are stimulants, which is great because it allows your brain to have more dopamine, which is what it needs. Okay, so that's a good thing. However, (chuckles) the stimulus will help you focus. So the ADHD medications, they help you focus, and they do help you stay focused. However, and this is so important, they do not help you focus or stay focused on the right things. So we have thousands of adults who have ADHD, that are taking their ADHD medication and come to us for coaching because you can very easily be taking your meds and be on your social media feed for seven hours straight without even getting up to grab a snack (chuckles) because you're just so hyperfocused in whatever you're doing, and you go to bed the next night, and you've done absolutely nothing.

(34:52) So it doesn't mean that you're gonna be productive and, like, great at your job or great in school; it just helps you stay focused. It's like putting blinders on, which can be very helpful if you know what to focus on and if you know how to design your track to getting from point A to point B. And so the skills are a totally different category, and I believe you need skills more than anything. And, and if you're taking medication, that's awesome. However, you also (chuckles) need the skills to go with it because just staying focused for some people might be all they need, but for most people, you need to know what you're focusing on. You need to know about your priorities, and in order to know about your priorities, you need to know what you ultimately want.

(35:33) You need to know how to follow through and go from point A to point B without stopping, and getting derailed, and going on to something else, which a lot of us do. You need to learn how to communicate in ways that you're matching people, rather than always being off and always being misunderstood or getting into arguments. You need to be able to manage your moods, (chuckles) because people who have ADHD tend to have a difficult time regulating their emotions. These are all things you need to learn how to do that the medications don't teach you. It doesn't come with this, like, little, little lingo thing, and this is-

John R. Miles (36:09): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (36:09): ... how you manage your ADHD all in one day. (laughing) It do- all they do is they help you focus. That's it. They don't help you focus on what you need to be focused on, and they don't tell you how to do what you need to be doing. So it's two completely separate categories. I think the medications can be very helpful. I'm not against-

John R. Miles (36:28): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (36:28): ... medication at all, but they are definitely not all you need. Especially, like, we had, a couple years ago... Or no, not a couple, probably three or four years ago, we started getting a deluge of people coming to us 'cause there was a shortage (chuckles) of Adderall or, like, a lot of the ADHD medications, and so they just couldn't even get them. That's gonna happen.... and in terms of what happened to your girlfriend, where she had to keep going, she had to keep increasing her dosage, she probably wasn't learning any skills.

John R. Miles (36:57): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (36:57): I'm guessing she wasn't learn- tell me if I'm wrong, (chuckles) but I'm guessing she wasn't actually learning how to manage her ADHD in other ways, so she just had to keep relying- she had to stay reliant on the medication, and up and up, and that's not good.

John R. Miles (37:10): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (37:10): You don't want to be on super high levels of amphetamines.

John R. Miles (37:14): Well, and also when you do try to break free from it, there's withdrawal just like a- anything else, especially if you've been on it for decades.

Shanna Pearson (37:22): Yeah-

John R. Miles (37:22): Uh

Shanna Pearson (37:22): ... if you've been on it for decades, and you've been on a high dose, yes. However, if you've never been on ADHD medication, and you're wondering about it, I think it's never a bad idea to try because you can go off it without any problem if you start on a small dose. And it might be exactly what you need to just help you get started in terms of focus, and then obviously there's ways like, there's our coaching program, and there's a lot of other things out there that can help you do what you need to do. But the smaller doses might be all you need, and they are very easy to get off of. So w- I wouldn't want people to be dissuaded from trying something that can help them, as long as-

John R. Miles (38:02): So-

Shanna Pearson (38:02): ... it's done in moderation.

John R. Miles (38:03): (chuckles) Yes.

Shanna Pearson (38:04): (laughs)

John R. Miles (38:06): So at the beginning of the interview, you mentioned that y- you were pursued by your publisher, and it wasn't necessarily something you wanted to write, but if you were going to write it, you wanted to pour your soul into it. So one of the things I thought was most helpful about the book, and we've spent some time right now giving the audience an understanding of ADHD, but you have over 100 different strategies that are rooted in your decades of coaching, and some of these are emotional regulation tools, some of these are reducing overwhelm skills, some of them are dealing with reframing ne- negative self-talk. But I wanted to-

Shanna Pearson (38:47): (clears throat)

John R. Miles (38:47): ... go through a couple of these that caught my eye. So-

Shanna Pearson (38:50): Let's do it

John R. Miles (38:51): ... one of them was the importance of managing your time to manage your life.

Shanna Pearson (38:55): Mm.

John R. Miles (38:56): So why is it so important for people with ADHD to learn how to align tasks with their circadian rhythms?

Shanna Pearson (39:03): Oh, wow, because it's such a big deal. Because we are mood-based, period, end of story. So a neurotypical person could feel horrible and have an easier time still doing whatever needs to be done. All right? "I don't feel like it, I don't wanna do this, I..." Whatever, "but I have this thing on my to-do list, and I have to get it done, so I'm gonna grunt through it."

John R. Miles (39:26): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (39:26): A person with ADHD will basically not be able to do that. Most of us will not be able to, and so it's that much harder to get things done when we're not, quote-unquote, "in the mood" to do it. And so we all have a natural circadian rhythm, like, we really do, and it could be opposite. Uh, you and I could have completely opposite (chuckles) rhythms, but we all have our own, and I think that everyone's exhausted by 3:00 PM. That's what I think. But it turns out that some people, like, that's their second wind, is exactly at like between 2:30 and 3:00, they're just, like, ready to go again, back to work. And so you have to go with how you feel in terms of managing your time because you're gonna have things that you have to do. Regardless of what kind of job you have or even if you have a job, there's things you have to do. And so it's important to- I would really say it's important to work with your brain-

John R. Miles (40:25): Right

Shanna Pearson (40:25): ... and know when are you more... Like, when is your brain more energized, and when do you normally feel good naturally? Do your harder tasks at that time. Just do them, and then when you're normally turned off, and it's almost impossible to get anything done, you'll notice that it's usually at a certain time of day, or there's, like, a few-hour window, whatever it is, that's when you schedule your easier tasks. And this one switch, 'cause it's a big switch, John, because a lot of people... Let's say if you're a morning person, a lot of people tend to spend those, like, that time doing the most meaning- meaningless things, and they're just, like, scrolling through their phone, reading the news, (laughs) or they're just, like, drinking their coffee, but it's like that's their most engaged- their brain is at its most engaged peak time.

(41:12) And so they could be doing something a lot more productive that would save them about three hours later on in the day when they really don't want to. And matching your tasks with your circadian rhythm, I think it, in my experience with all of our clients, it's a game changer. Like, it really is, and it's very simple.

John R. Miles (41:30): I think it's good for anyone, and that's exactly-

Shanna Pearson (41:32): Yeah

John R. Miles (41:32): ... what I do. (chuckles) Like, like, all my writing, my deep thinking, if I'm writing a book, try to start as early as I can in the morning. So if I'm really in book-writing mode, I'm in front of the computer at 6:00 o'clock in the morning, and then I'll take a break-

Shanna Pearson (41:45): Brilliant

John R. Miles (41:46): ... like, two, three hours into the day, and I put a lot of my answering emails, administrative stuff in the back half of the day.

Shanna Pearson (41:55): See?

John R. Miles (41:55): Um-

Shanna Pearson (41:55): You're living proof. How many books have you written? (laughs) Like-

John R. Miles (41:59): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (41:59): ... and you've got, like, the 10 what you were talking about before, like, the, uh, a 10 series and of the kid- of the children's books when those are gonna be coming out. That's exactly what you need to do. Most people think they need to do things at a certain time or based on how other people do them, but you don't. You- if you have a brain that's wired in any way (chuckles) differently or just your- however you are wired, that's where you, that's where you're gonna be most effective. That's where you're gonna be more productive.

John R. Miles (42:24): Yeah, and since I brought up that gentleman I worked with at Lowe's-

Shanna Pearson (42:28): Mm

John R. Miles (42:28): ... and I was talking about, like, people thought he was on a rollercoaster ride, which really, to me-

Shanna Pearson (42:34): (laughs)

John R. Miles (42:34): ... is one of the things you focus on, is how do you stay on track-

Shanna Pearson (42:38): Yeah

John R. Miles (42:38): ... and follow through? What are some of the best hacks for people with ADHD for consistency?

Shanna Pearson (42:44): For consistency or for following through? (chuckles)

John R. Miles (42:46): Well, I think it's a little bit of both, because-

Shanna Pearson (42:49): Yeah

John R. Miles (42:50): ... to me, following through, if you're not doing it consistently, people pick it up.... people notice.

Shanna Pearson (42:58): People do notice, and more importantly is you notice. When- as soon as you notice that you're off track, especially if you're used to being off track a lot, you'll tend to fall down the track. Like, you'll just tend to just jump off of it. And there's the physical management strategies, and then there's the mental (chuckles) management strategies. I think a lot of us forget to ask why we do what we do. I think so many of us-

John R. Miles (43:25): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (43:25): ... especially today, when the volume is so high and there's so much coming at us from every possible direction, we tend to, even when we don't, if we don't have ADHD, we tend to be in reaction mode a lot, and we're just, like, falling into things and following what's pulling us down here or down this track or down that track, and we don't actually intend to be on that track. And so I think it's extremely important for us to remember just to ask why we're doing what we're doing and why it's a priority for us. So when you're talking about consistency and following through, what do I need to follow through on, and why? And lock yourself into that, because when we live twenty-four/seven in a reaction mode, which I believe is, like, most of the human race at this point (chuckles) , it's really easy to forget, and I think a lot of us do.

(44:24) And we have these moments, this, like, minute, where we're on- we see a meme, and it reminds us to be grateful and to remember and to count our blessings. And it's just, like, in our brain and then out of our brain in one second. So write down... If you actually have something that you want to follow through on-

John R. Miles (44:39): Hmm

Shanna Pearson (44:39): ... write down why, and write it down, and make it so that it's visible, and that you have it in front of you somewhere. And I don't mean create a vision board or anything like that. Just write down your why, and go a little bit deeper, and try to find out, like, really why. 'Cause it's usually not about looking better or making more money. It really isn't, even though that tends to be a lot of people's immediate whys. It always goes deeper, and when you're more emotionally... Like I was saying before, we're very emotion and mood-based.

John R. Miles (45:10): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (45:10): When you're emotionally attached to what you want to follow through on, and it's pulling you, you will stay engaged. You won't jump off that track nearly as easily as if it's just something that you're reacting to for no reason. So you have to go why. You have to remind yourself and your brain why, what's important, and that's gonna get you to be much more emotionally attached, and that's everything when it comes to ADHD. And then there's practical things you can do. (chuckles) If you're working on something and it's been two hours and you're losing track, or you just went down a rabbit hole on the internet, get off your butt (chuckles) and have- do a physical state change, which I'm a huge believer in physical state changes because as- when you- we have, like, our physical, our mental, and emotional. It's like everything is a state, and the easiest- if you're feeling bad, you can't just tell yourself to feel better, right?

John R. Miles (46:04): Right.

Shanna Pearson (46:04): But if you're doing something with your right hand, you can tell yourself to do it with your left hand, okay? So the easiest state for us to change is our physical state, not our mental state. But our physical state affects our mental state. Like, they're all- it's all, it's all attached. So the best way to get back on track if you're getting off track, honestly, is just to change your physical state, whether that means, like, getting up and, like, putting on some music and just, like, going for a walk, or whether it means... This is so bad, but some of our clients have fallen in love with this, which is (chuckles) a physical state change doesn't mean exercise necessarily. It just means doing something physically to wake up your brain. And so the sucking on a breath mint, like a really strong one, and then drinking an ice cold glass of water, I don't know why, (chuckles) but this really-

John R. Miles (46:57): Right

Shanna Pearson (46:57): ... it is invigorating times 10. There's different ways that people can, like, wake themselves up and get more into their body, and that helps them get back on track very quickly. Like, sitting at your computer-

John R. Miles (47:10): Yeah, for sure

Shanna Pearson (47:10): ... and going on another website is not gonna help.

John R. Miles (47:12): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (47:12): But a physical state change will. Being much more emotionally attached to the why behind what you're doing, that will.

John R. Miles (47:21): And one of the things I try to get people to do on this podcast is to implement what you listen on the show, and I think a lot of people listen to podcasts and they don't do anything. So we actually started a Substack, and we're, like, going overboard. We're writing, like, accompanying Substack posts for these episodes, but in them, we're putting complete workbooks so they can-

Shanna Pearson (47:43): Oh, my gosh. (chuckles)

John R. Miles (47:45): So they- so we go through, and we highlight the different strategies we talk about, when- since I've read the book, we also put some of the information from the book into the workbooks as well to get people if- to take that step. Because what's the point of wasting your time if you're not gonna implement what you're hearing? So-

Shanna Pearson (48:05): I love that-

John R. Miles (48:06): That's my thought

Shanna Pearson (48:07): ... so much. I love that so much. You've read my book. You probably know how many times I say in my book, "Don't just read about this, do it." And I, I say that in different ways, at least 10 or 15 different times throughout this book. "Don't just read about a strategy, implement it. Try it. Do it. This might sound easy. This might sound obvious. Please try it in your life, like, right now. I will wait for you." I actually say that in my book-

John R. Miles (48:32): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (48:32): ... because we already have information. Nobody is lacking information. It's doing it that makes a difference. It's the only thing-

John R. Miles (48:42): For sure

Shanna Pearson (48:42): ... that we need to be doing differently, is actually implementing any of the information that we're given. So I love that you do that, John. That's so cool. (chuckles) That's amazing-

John R. Miles (48:52): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (48:52): ... to start a movement. Every podcast should do that. That's a growth mindset.

John R. Miles (48:55): And you know who, uh, who told me to start doing it was, uh, my friend Terri Cole. I'm not sure if you know who Terri is.... if you don't, man, you gotta get on her podcast. She's great.

Shanna Pearson (49:04): Okay! (chuckles)

John R. Miles (49:05): But she does it on her show, too, so listener-

Shanna Pearson (49:08): It's fantastic

John R. Miles (49:08): ... if you like my show, you know, her big thing is-

Shanna Pearson (49:10): Go to Terri's. (laughs)

John R. Miles (49:12): Yeah, her big thing is boundaries, but, uh, she talks a lot about a lot more than that, but-

Shanna Pearson (49:17): Wow, that's huge, especially for people with ADHD.

John R. Miles (49:20): Terri, if you're listening, I'm giving you some free promo today, but- (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (49:24): (laughing)

John R. Miles (49:26): So Shanna-

Shanna Pearson (49:27): There you go

John R. Miles (49:27): ... if a listener is dealing with ADHD, and they just wanted to implement one starting point from the book today, what would you recommend?

Shanna Pearson (49:39): Do less. (chuckles) Do less-

John R. Miles (49:42): Do less

Shanna Pearson (49:42): ... not more. Do less at a time. By doing less at a time, and this is, like, a rule that you would have to live by, not just, like, a, an idea. By doing less all at once, you will end up doing more. That is a fact, (chuckles) and I feel like we've proven that since I started my coaching program. We have this part of our program called One Focus, and every single week, a client gets one focus. It's like a one thing that they need to do, and it's usually something that's, like, two or three minutes a day. Everyone fights us about this. You- like, these are high-level people. We have doctors who are clients. We have, like, CEOs of gigantic companies. They're like, "You're not giving me one thing to do? Are you joking?-"

John R. Miles (50:26): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (50:26): " ... What am I paying for?" (chuckles) But at the end of the session, they get one action that they have to implement. It is remarkable how this compounds because every week they're getting one. Every week, so after two months, they've already gotten eight, and they're doing it every single day, and after three months, it's 12. And so you don't realize it, but thinking about only doing that one thing at a time allows your brain to totally absorb whatever it is that you need to be doing.

John R. Miles (50:55): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (50:56): And rather than trying to do 13 things all at one time, and your brain absorbs none of it, and then you have to keep repeating it, and doing it again, and correcting it, and doing it again, and again, and it takes forever. This is just, like, the one thing that I would love for people to start thinking about and then start doing is doing less at a time and believing and trusting that it will allow you to do a lot more, and it'll alleviate tons of overwhelm, which tends to paralyze people and make us not able to do anything.

John R. Miles (51:26): That's the... one of the biggest secrets I try to tell people about, not only on this podcast but in my book as well, is that it's the micro actions, it's the micro consistency of doing small things in a repeated fashion that's gonna get you to change quicker than anything else in your life.

Shanna Pearson (51:45): That's exactly it.

John R. Miles (51:46): So it's like micro choices that you make.

Shanna Pearson (51:49): That's exactly right. So the micro choice, what you're saying, that's what we call the one focus. That's it.

John R. Miles (51:54): Right.

Shanna Pearson (51:54): And that's what we do. Like, this book is chock-full (chuckles) of all of that, and not only are we telling you to do one small thing, we're telling you what to do. Here's a small thing, that you're gonna do this, and every single... You just do it. Just do one. If there's, like, 100 things in this book or in any other book that you might be reading, just do one. Don't think that you need to do all of it, 'cause that won't work. Just do one, and then you'll see how quickly things actually change for you in your real life.

John R. Miles (52:24): Yeah, and-

Shanna Pearson (52:24): I feel like a lot of us don't trust that. We think that we have to do everything all at the same time, and it has to be more and more, and that's why there's- s- people are struggling so much. Because they're not living up to their potential. They're doing less. They feel like they're always behind, and it, it's extremely stressful.

John R. Miles (52:42): Absolutely, and I love how you end the book because I think this is something-

Shanna Pearson (52:47): (chuckles)

John R. Miles (52:47): ... that's true, whether we're talking about ADHD or anything you want to improve in your life. "You're limitless when you learn to work with your brain, not against it." That's such an important message.

Shanna Pearson (52:58): Mm, it is. We really are. I'm learning that every single client that comes into our program teaches me what's possible, and we have so many people who swear on their life that nothing will ever help them, and then something does help them, and then this helps them, or we help... And we help them, and it's not that difficult. So I promise that when you know what to do for y- the way that your brain is wired, your life will start to fall into place, and things will start to get easier, but you have to learn, and you have to figure out, like, "What do I need to do to work with my brain?" And that's it. I think we're all designed a little bit differently, and just own that.

John R. Miles (53:37): Absolutely. Well, Shanna, it was such a joy to have you today. Congratulations on your book, and thank you again for giving us the honor of coming on Passion Struck.

Shanna Pearson (53:46): Thanks, John. It was really fun to be here. I'm really glad we got to have this conversation. Thank you. (upbeat music)

Transcribed from the episode audio.