Navigating ADHD and Menopause

On episode 198 of Not Your Mother’s Menopause, Dr. Fiona Lovely talks with Shanna Pearson, founder of Expert ADHD Coaching and author of Invisible ADHD, about women who find out in perimenopause that they have ADHD. Shanna explains that estrogen regulates dopamine, so as estrogen declines, the systems a woman has used to manage her ADHD can stop working.

Fiona asks about masking, low self-esteem and the moods her listeners describe, and Shanna answers with tools from her coaching program, including mood scheduling.

In this episode

• How Shanna learned everything she could about ADHD after her own diagnosis, and why she calls it manageable but not a superpower
• Fiona’s husband’s diagnosis, and why so many women with ADHD grow up asking “Why can’t I just?” and end up with low self-esteem
• A quote about ADHD and menopause that Fiona reads aloud, and how the standard screening forms for anxiety and depression list symptoms that are also ADHD
• Two questions to ask yourself before seeing a specialist, why hyperactivity in girls stays inside their heads, and how falling estrogen lowers dopamine
• What masking is, why Shanna says to own the mask you created, and making boring tasks into a game with timers, music and a roll of the dice
• Mood scheduling, and how a brain that can’t compartmentalize lets one mood take over everything

Episode links

• The episode page on Libsyn, with show notes
• The video on YouTube, which plays the full episode over the show’s cover art
• Apple Podcasts and Spotify
• Dr. Fiona Lovely’s website, with more about her and the show

Transcript

This transcript follows the audio episode above. Times are minutes and seconds into it, and match the video on YouTube. Fiona introduces the show and Shanna, and a sponsor message plays before the conversation starts at 9:39. A second sponsor message plays at 46:33, and the show’s disclaimer closes the episode.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (0:00): (upbeat music) I'm Dr. Fiona Lovely, and this is the Not Your Mother's Menopause podcast. I'm taking the taboos of menopause and perimenopause and bringing light to the dark. No bullshit, no shame. It's time for us to gain a new paradigm in female health, out with the old and in with the new, and I'm bringing fresh perspectives from someone in the arena. I've been practicing women's health for nearly 20 years, and I'm spilling the tea on what it means to live at midlife knowing that the best is yet to come. I'm sharing my Gen X approach to living through this transition, sassy, a bit sweary, and always honest. Tactical tips and instantly usable information is my aim. I hope to make you laugh and that you learn something new that helps you embrace the change.

(0:56) Together, we bring power to the peri. Onward to the podcast. (upbeat music) You're tuned into the Not Your Mother's Menopause podcast, and I'm Dr. Fiona Lovely. Thanks for joining me today. My guest today brought such wisdom to our space, and I'm so excited to share it with you. I know this information is gonna touch certain women more deeply than before. My guest today is Shanna Pearson, founder and president of Expert ADHD Coaching. So if you are a woman in perimenopause and all of the sudden you are scattered, overwhelmed, can't focus, can't accomplish tasks, just the world feels like it's closing in, or what Shanna refers to as, "Why can't I just..." fill in the blank, then there is a chance you might have ADHD.

(2:03) And if I'm the first one to bring you that information, I, I wanna do it softly as I can because I know it can feel like a lot when you hear that. But what I want you to feel is the understanding that will come when you have the information and wisdom that Shanna Pearson delivered in this conversation today. So some highlights. She referred to herself as having a stimulus-starved brain, and so she was constantly sort of grabbing for things that would fill in that blank. I could relate to that a lot. She talked about women in menopause having that, or women in ADHD, but certainly in menopause, having low self-esteem, internalized hyperactivity, which is how girls present with ADHD rather than boys, which is an externalized hap- hyperactivity, and that's why so many women missed getting diagnosed.

(3:05) We talk about the connection between why it is that women, some women in perimenopause all of a sudden feel this impending doom but also feel the emotionality and the mood shifts that come along with ADHD. And estrogen stimulates and regulates dopamine on a few different levels, but as the estrogen starts to fluctuate in early perimenopause and then drop off, that's a low dopamine state. And as Shanna pointed out, ADHD is a low dopamine state. So she gave us all kinds of tips and tools on how to navigate the world when you have a neurodivergence. And of course, she was here to talk about her new book called Invisible ADHD, and let me tell you, so the subtitle is Proven Mood and Life Management for Smart Yet Scattered Women.

(4:05) I could not consume this fast enough. The book is fantastic. There are over 100 tips on how to manage a scattered brain in a world that wants organization, and I'm telling you, these tips are so good. So, so good. My favorite was when she talked about mood scheduling. Listen in for that part of the conversation. Really, uh, even as somebody who is a, quote-unquote, "brain expert" by my education, I learned all kinds of things in this conversation, and so I'm hoping the same is true for you. In fact, you'll hear me say many times, I can feel a bell ring almost in my head when one of my guests delivers a nugget of information that I know is gonna be so helpful and so useful to the women in my community, and that happened several times today during this conversation.

(5:00) So, um, you'll hear the, uh, excitement in my voice, um, as I, uh, download the information, if you will, and, um, and, and I, and I hope you feel the same enthusiasm about it as I did, for sure. Okay. Let me do a proper introduction, please, to my guest, Shanna Pearson. She's the founder and president of Expert ADHD Coaching, the largest ADHD coaching program of its kind in the world, providing one-on-one action-based coaching for easily distracted adults seeking personal, professional, and financial success. With over 26 years of experience, she has designed and led focused and goal achievement programs for executives and directors at Fortune 500 companies and world-class institutions, including Google X, Tesla, PayPal, Pfizer, Intel, Ford Motor Company, Yale School of Medicine, Disney, Meta, Johnson & Johnson, Apple, and SpaceX, and has helped tens of thousands of adults transform their lives through her results-driven brain-based approach.

(6:11) In addition to degrees in psychology and education, Shanna's credentials include a lifetime spent mastering her own ADHD. She personally trains, certifies, and mentors all coaches in her proprietary action-based coaching method, and oversees more than 60,000 coaching sessions every year. She's been featured on NPR, Fox, NBC, Global TV, CTV, and more. Her new book is Invisible ADHD: Proven Mood and Life Management for Smart Yet Scattered Women. Oh, boy, this is a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot, and I hope that, that the same is true for you. So please tune in for a message from our sponsor and then this great conversation with Shanna Pearson of Expert ADHD Coaching. Thanks for listening.

(7:00) (upbeat music) Right then, listeners, it's spring. The days are getting longer, and if you're anything like me, you're feeling that little nudge to shake off the winter cobwebs. And just like we might be tackling the clutter at home and washing walls and doing what my grandmother would've called spring cleaning, it's a brilliant time to think about a bit of spring cleaning for our bodies, too. Now hands up. Who of you has a whole shelf dedicated to various supplements? Me too. Well, these days I've simplified things brilliantly with AG1. It's my little daily habit, and honestly, it helps me feel so much more energized as I embrace these brighter mornings. It's just one simple drink to support your digestion, your energy levels, and even our skin from the inside out.

(7:59) And because we're all busy bees, especially as we get out at, and about more in this lovely spring weather, the AG1 travel packs are an absolute godsend for staying consistent on those weekend getaways or busy workdays. Now when it comes to our health, we want something we can really trust, and that's why I choose AG1. With science-backed ingredients and real benefits I can feel, AG1 makes it easy to support overall wellness every day, and that's why I've been partnering with AG1 for so long. AG1 is offering new subscribers a free $76 gift when you sign up. You'll get a welcome kit, a bottle of D3 K2, and five free travel packs in your first box.

(8:48) So make sure to check out drinkag1.com/fionalovely to get this offer. That's drinkag1.com/fionalovely to start your spring on a healthier note. I'm delighted to have AG1 as a sponsor of the podcast. Remember, it's a foundational nutrition supplement, and I drink my AG1 every day to support my immune health. It's all part of feeling our best during this fabulous next chapter. (upbeat music) I'm Dr. Fiona Lovely, and this is the Not Your Mother's Menopause podcast, and my guest today is Shanna Pearson. And we are gonna talk about women and ADHD. Shanna, welcome to the show.

Shanna Pearson (9:40): Thank you, Fiona. I'm so happy to be here. We're gonna have a good time.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (9:43): Yes, we are. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (9:46): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (9:46): Okay, I am dying to know the story about how you became an ADHD expert.

Shanna Pearson (9:52): Oh. (laughs) Um, I, I have an entire life of living with ADHD, but most of the time unsuccessfully. And so I did not know I had ADHD, like most of us. Most women have no idea when, that, you know, until very, very recently. But when I was miraculously diagnosed, my life was at, like, below ground level. It was at a very, very, very low level, and it was, for me, a do or die situation that I had to learn everything humanly possible about this condition. And so that's all I did. I, I read. I spoke to medical professionals. I spoke to s- you know, even just, like, um, social workers, even from like psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, doctors.

(10:38) Um, and, and just spent probably about a good year or two just focusing on everything hu- you know, everything that's being said and that was understood at the time about ADHD. And then slowly started utilizing and creating things that I knew would work for myself because I knew that I was a person who required stimulus. I needed extra stimulus, which explained my entire life. Um, so I just started creating, you know, small little systems and tools and techniques that would work for a very stimulus-starved brain. Um, and they worked for me, and they helped me in a lot of different areas of my life, um, even relationships. And so it wasn't just about work and, you know, time management.

(11:22) It was so much deeper than that. Um, and then slowly, slowly, you know, people started to ask for, you know, help in terms of they started to see my life turn around, and they're like, "What are you doing?" (laughs) You know, "Can I try?" You know, whatever, can, like, "Share this with me." Um, and then, you know, as time ... It happened very organically. It was, it was, you know, purposeful learning and then learning through the people that I was helping and then learning through more professionals and then so on and so on. And year after year after year, eventually there's nothing that has been said about ADHD that I haven't already explored, um, so far.

(11:56) (laughs) So, you know, there's, you know, expertise I think happens with time and experience.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (12:02): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (12:02): And so at this point, we've ... You know, my company has coached over 22,000 individuals, and every single one of those individuals is different, and their ADHD is experienced differently. And so when you know what works for that person and that person and that person times 22,000, you become, you know, you, you, you get to f- you figure out (laughs) what-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (12:23): Yes

Shanna Pearson (12:23): ... in general works for people and what doesn't.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (12:26): Yes. Yes, and, and I completely understand that. As a, as a chiropractor who's become a menopause expert, it was just because over 20 years-

Shanna Pearson (12:34): Yes

Dr. Fiona Lovely (12:35): ... every time I talked to another woman, uh, who had the experience of perimenopause symptoms, I started to see the patterns.

Shanna Pearson (12:42): Exactly. That's exactly it.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (12:44): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (12:44): There's patterns.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (12:45): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (12:45): Yeah, and similarity, so there you go.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (12:46): And of course, uh, uh, as somebody who's somewhere on the neurodivergent scale- (laughs)So we won't talk about that part, but-

Shanna Pearson (12:54): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (12:55): ... we see those patterns so much easier-

Shanna Pearson (12:58): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (12:58): ... than the neuronormative brain, if you will. Not to make it, like, one better than the other, but we see the patterns. We, we see around corners. We see the stuff that others can't yet see.

Shanna Pearson (13:11): Right. It's like we're looking around. We're looking at everything. We're not just, like, we're ... It's almost impossible for us to have tunnel vision. You know?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (13:17): Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (13:17): And so, and so you see, you see all angles of everything, and it's easy to make those connections.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (13:23): Yeah, and you know what? I wanna just address this right up front because I certainly have seen this over and over again in my practice, especially in my functional neurology practice, which is working with people who have some sort of brain challenge. It's usually a concussion, but I've worked with all kinds of neuro trauma, neurodevelopmental things, et cetera. And any time I mention ADD or ADHD, I see this look.

Shanna Pearson (13:50): Mm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (13:50): This, "Oh, shit" look, either on the parent's face, and I work with teenagers and adults, not with the little kids.

Shanna Pearson (13:59): Right.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (13:59): Um, so I either see this on the parent's face or I see this on the adult's face because they've heard somebody say it for the first time. And of course for our generation, we didn't see the kids with Ritalin, but we babysat the kids that got the Ritalin.

Shanna Pearson (14:14): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (14:14): You know what I'm talking about, right?

Shanna Pearson (14:16): We had, we had to give them the Ritalin-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (14:17): Yes, exactly

Shanna Pearson (14:18): ... when we were babysitting them.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (14:19): I know, right?

Shanna Pearson (14:20): Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (14:20): And so there was a lot of judgment about those kids-

Shanna Pearson (14:23): Yes, yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (14:24): ... about having the diagnosis, about being different. It was considered a learning disability, and that persists. And one of the things I see happen is that the teachers and the teaching aides, et cetera, that are in my practice, they say it's, it's about coding. It's about coding the kids so they get the teaching assistants in the classroom.

Shanna Pearson (14:46): Interesting.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (14:46): So-

Shanna Pearson (14:46): Okay. Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (14:47): ... so what I'm saying is I wanna open the conversation about this not being a judgment thing. Like, please don't judge yourself if you are a woman listening to this podcast and thinking, "Oh, my God. I think this is me. I, this is it. I'm toast. Like, this is terrible." Having ADHD is a superpower. You have access to things in your brain that a neuronormative person does not. Can we talk about that a little bit, please?

Shanna Pearson (15:16): Yeah, but you're not gonna like what I have to say. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (15:17): Okay, hit me. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (15:20): But I do see this often, so, so I have to say it here as well. ADHD is manageable. That's what everyone needs to know. If you're listening to this or you're watching this and you're like, "Oh, my gosh. This is me, and, and I have a brain like this, I'm doomed," you are absolutely not. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (15:38): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (15:38): In fact, knowing that you have ADHD and knowing that your brain is wired in a very specific way now gives you access to the tools that will 100%, and I promise you, 100% work for your brain and allow you to get from point A to point B.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (15:56): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (15:56): So knowing that you have ADHD is the, is obviously the first step. Implementing tools, which is, you know, obviously what I write about in my book and what we do every single day in my coaching practice, that's the second thing that you have to do, and then you will have the results you want. Okay?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (16:12): Mm-hmm, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (16:12): That said, ADHD, in my opinion, is not a superpower.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (16:16): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (16:16): And the reason I don't think it is a superpower is because I know for a fact, just based on myself and based on everyone we've ever worked with, having ADHD is very, very difficult.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (16:28): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (16:29): And living with ADHD is difficult. You have always been the square peg trying to fit into a round hole. You have always been misunderstood by most people in your life since day one, whether it was your teachers or your parents or your siblings or your partner (laughs) or your friends. You are, um... it's a har- ... It's usually, for most of us, it's very hard for us to trust ourselves because we say we're gonna do something and we mean it with all of our heart, and then we just don't (laughs) do it.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (17:01): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (17:01): You know? And so the next time you say you're gonna do something or you wanna do something, there's always that incredibly loud voice inside your mind that's like, "No you won't." (laughs) You know, "Nice try."

Dr. Fiona Lovely (17:09): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (17:09): Like, "You're not gonna..." Right?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (17:11): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (17:11): And you're living this, you're living a life, you know, a lot of us are masking for most of the day, you know, trying to get by and just trying to get everything done when you're, you're literally running around inside of your brain at, like, a million miles an hour, and you're still not getting where you wanna go.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (17:28): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (17:29): And, and I don't wanna minimize that experience, because that experience is hard, and it sucks. (laughs) And so with the big, you know, the, the scene that everyone, so many people, I, you know, I would say in the last maybe 10 years where it's like, "ADHD is a superpower," I really don't agree with that, and I think it makes things harder for people because if you think you have this superpower and your life still sucks, then what is wrong with you? (laughs) Right?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (17:57): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (17:58): I- like, it's, it's like, well, well, I'm supposed to be this incredible, you know, I'm supposed to have this power. I'm supposed to be able to do anything, and I'm supp- No you're not. You have a brain that's wired differently.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:08): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (18:08): It's not a superpower, but it's definitely not a life sentence either.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:12): Yes, okay.

Shanna Pearson (18:13): Okay?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:14): Helpful.

Shanna Pearson (18:14): Learn to work with your brain, and, and 100% I will, and you, you know, you will help-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:19): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (18:19): ... and, and, um-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:20): Yep

Shanna Pearson (18:20): ... and lots of other people out there will help you too, and learn to work with it just like you would learn to work with, you know, like I, I talk about in my book, like curly hair versus straight hair.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:30): Mm-hmm, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (18:30): Right? Like, you know, you-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:31): And you're you

Shanna Pearson (18:32): ... you have curly hair.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:33): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (18:33): You, you know for a fact that you cannot use a brush the way, you know, a super straight hair person would be using a hairbrush.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:40): No.

Shanna Pearson (18:40): You need to use different tools, right?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:43): Yes, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (18:43): It's the same thing with ADHD. Learn-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:45): Interesting

Shanna Pearson (18:45): ... learn to use those tools. Your life will become a million times easier.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (18:51): So thank you for that insight, because I think what I've just realized as I was listening to you is it also depends on where you land on that spectrum of-

Shanna Pearson (19:03): Mm-hmm

Dr. Fiona Lovely (19:03): ... of neurodivergence, if we're gonna use that ter- if I'll use that terminology. Because- I have some for... I'm gonna talk about myself and-

Shanna Pearson (19:11): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (19:11): ... my husband for a second.

Shanna Pearson (19:12): Good.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (19:12): I know about ADHD most because I helped him get his diagnosis.

Shanna Pearson (19:16): Oh, good.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (19:17): As he went into manopause, if you will-

Shanna Pearson (19:19): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (19:20): ... all of the sudden, this su-

Shanna Pearson (19:21): I love it

Dr. Fiona Lovely (19:22): ... super functional man, the wheels came off.

Shanna Pearson (19:25): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (19:25): And we were... And this was right after COVID, and it was like, "What the hell's going on here?"

Shanna Pearson (19:29): Interesting.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (19:29): And of course, being the high-functioning type A person that I am, I went out about finding w- what was going on, and that's when I came across a survey that the GPs put together here in Canada that looks at sort of common traits of someone who has ADHD.

Shanna Pearson (19:49): Mm-hmm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (19:49): And gave him the survey. He basically rated the highest on every single question there, and we went, "Oh, shit. Okay, we weren't seeing that one coming."

Shanna Pearson (20:00): Right.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:01): So that was very eye-opening for this household-

Shanna Pearson (20:04): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:04): ... and, um, esp- especially being able to see the masking behaviors that he had done for many, many years, so I wanna talk about masking here.

Shanna Pearson (20:13): Oh, for sure. Yes.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:15): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (20:15): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:15): And he was that classic kid, supremely highly intelligent in elementary and high school.

Shanna Pearson (20:21): Mm-hmm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:21): Considered gifted. Remember the gifted program?

Shanna Pearson (20:24): Oh, yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:24): Had all of those-

Shanna Pearson (20:25): (laughs) Oh, yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:26): ... right? Like, how are those kids doing now, right, in our generation?

Shanna Pearson (20:29): Right. I went to a school where there were a, where part of it was for gifted kids.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:32): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (20:32): I was not one of them. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:34): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (20:34): But, but they were there, yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:35): Yes, exactly.

Shanna Pearson (20:36): Mm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:36): It wasn't my experience either, but it was his. And so the bar was set so high for him as a child-

Shanna Pearson (20:41): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:42): ... that he stopped trying because he felt like he was constantly disappointing people.

Shanna Pearson (20:48): Right.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:48): Which is very difficult for an ADHD-

Shanna Pearson (20:51): Yes

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:51): ... person who's also-

Shanna Pearson (20:51): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:51): ... highly sensitive.

Shanna Pearson (20:53): Yes. Yeah. No, it is. It's difficult, and it's not, um, it's honestly not really fair.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (20:59): Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (21:00): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (21:00): So what I just realized when you were talking about it not being a superpower is for me, I have some of the traits, and when you mix that into high-functioning type A, like, let me go at something and I've got that shit done, wrapped up with a pretty bow, organized, on time, early, et cetera.

Shanna Pearson (21:18): Mm-hmm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (21:19): But he is more classically ADHD, and he's exactly as you described. And I've s- I can see the tension in not being able to complete things is so interesting, which I had not thought about that. And of course, if you have somebody, some smartass coming along like me saying, "Oh, it's a superpower," and you feel like you're failing on all these levels-

Shanna Pearson (21:38): Right

Dr. Fiona Lovely (21:39): ... so thank you for-

Shanna Pearson (21:40): Right

Dr. Fiona Lovely (21:40): ... that awareness. That's so-

Shanna Pearson (21:41): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (21:41): ... powerful.

Shanna Pearson (21:42): I think it's really important, because it just makes people, it just makes people feel worse about themselves. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (21:47): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (21:47): You know?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (21:48): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (21:48): Like, "Wait a minute, I'm supposed to have this superpower and I'm, I've, I feel the exact opposite."

Dr. Fiona Lovely (21:52): Yeah. Well, and, and let's, let's talk about the fact that it's, um, it's about the expectations we have about productivity of human beings, and that's where the tension is, right? If we were all-

Shanna Pearson (22:04): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (22:04): ... able to just sort of i- live in such a world where we could just, you know, be free-ranging, is what my husband calls it, then you wouldn't have people's expectations on you of what needs to be done and, you know, of society.

Shanna Pearson (22:17): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (22:17): There's certain things-

Shanna Pearson (22:18): Right

Dr. Fiona Lovely (22:18): ... you need to accomplish in order to be a good human being, but...

Shanna Pearson (22:21): Right. You just always feel like you're failing at something and such.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (22:25): Yes, yes.

Shanna Pearson (22:25): Which is, you know, which just leads to so many people with ADHD, um, especially women, have, uh, incredibly low self-esteem.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (22:32): Yes. Okay, let's, let's dig into that, please, because-

Shanna Pearson (22:36): Mm

Dr. Fiona Lovely (22:37): ... um, low self-esteem, oh my gosh, we have to talk about that.

Shanna Pearson (22:40): I mean, it's all cr- it's all connected to exactly what you were just talking about. You know, you're just trying to, you're trying to do everything, and you're trying to do it really well, and you have all of these expectations, and other people have these expectations, too. If, you know, a lot of us are very intelligent, but some of us are just-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (22:55): Right

Shanna Pearson (22:55): ... average intelligence, and regardless, we're just never measuring up because we're not able to do things the way that other people do them or the way that it's expected of us, and that whole-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (23:05): Yes

Shanna Pearson (23:05): ... you know, that was happening during our formative years, and so you're constantly... It's like the first part of my book, Why Can't You Just.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (23:11): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (23:12): That is like-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (23:13): Love that.

Shanna Pearson (23:13): (laughs) You know, we lived inside of that, and we grew up inside of that, and not even knowing why we can't, why we can't just. Why can't I just, right?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (23:22): Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (23:22): And so now you don't understand yourself and nobody else understands you either, and that, it just feels terrible.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (23:29): Yes, absolutely.

Shanna Pearson (23:29): It feels horrible. Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (23:31): It, it... And I'm hoping that this conversation, as women are listening, are going to feel themselves if understood when you say what you just said.

Shanna Pearson (23:41): Good.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (23:42): Like, feel yourself understood in a way that maybe you haven't been before.

Shanna Pearson (23:46): Right.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (23:47): And also, I think it's really important to just say an ADHD diagnosis, there are so many things that you can do to help with that.

Shanna Pearson (23:58): Mm-hmm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (23:59): It's not just about the medication, right?

Shanna Pearson (24:01): Oh my goodness.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (24:02): Right?

Shanna Pearson (24:03): 1,000%. My whole life is devoted to this. (laughs) Like, like, helping people. We are non-medical base. Like, everything we do is non-medical. A- and that said, probably 70% of our clients do take medication also, but it is obviously not the only thing they need, but that's why they're here, you know?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (24:19): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (24:20): So yeah, there's so-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (24:21): Absolutely

Shanna Pearson (24:21): ... many things you can do.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (24:22): So let's talk about that in context of women's health, but I, before, to, to open this section of the conversation, let me just read a little quote from your book if that's all right.

Shanna Pearson (24:33): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (24:33): So the book-

Shanna Pearson (24:33): Go for it

Dr. Fiona Lovely (24:33): ... is called Invisible ADHD, 'cause most people who are listening to this, Shanna, will actually be not watching us on video, but listening-

Shanna Pearson (24:40): Right

Dr. Fiona Lovely (24:40): ... in their car, driving. Invisible ADHD by Shanna Pearson. Here we go. Here's a quote that I just, like, pushed me over with a feather. Here we go.

Shanna Pearson (24:48): I love it.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (24:49): "Many women discover that they have ADHD during menopause or perimenopause due to hormonal changes exacerbating previously manageable symptoms or triggering new ones. Fluctuating estrogen levels can impact neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin, which are also affected by ADHD, leading to increased difficulty with focus, emotional regulation, and other ADHD-related challenges. An estimated 50 to 75% of women struggling with ADHD don't even know that they have it." ... and are fighting an uphill battle trying to navigate a world their brains are simply not wired for. Ladies, I can feel you reacting to this as you're listening. I can feel it. On the surface, people may label them as unreliable, flaky, intense, or dramatic

Shanna Pearson (25:43): Mm-hmm

Dr. Fiona Lovely (25:43): ... but inwardly, these women are plagued by severe overwhelm, emotional chaos, chronic stress, catastrophic thinking, and feeling misunderstood by everyone. Women who seek help are often misdiagnosed with anxiety or depression, absolutely

Shanna Pearson (26:00): Mm-hmm

Dr. Fiona Lovely (26:00): ... which can lead to a lifetime of living with the wrong diagnosis and medications while the true culprit goes undetected or incorrectly treated. This can leave them feeling hopeless and perpetuate cycles of anxiety and depression. To make matters worse, just when they may start to take small steps forward in their ADHD management, hormonal shifts like PMS and menopause can throw everything into a lurch and send them right back to square one. Whoa. Dude-

Shanna Pearson (26:31): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (26:31): ... thank you for unpacking that.

Shanna Pearson (26:34): You're welcome. That, that one, that one page took about a month to write. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (26:38): Did it really?

Shanna Pearson (26:38): Yes. (laughs) Like, there's just so much to say.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (26:42): So much.

Shanna Pearson (26:42): There's so much to say, yeah, and it, and every single thing there is 1,000% true, and then, you know, you could, you could, you could times it by 10 for the intensity of, you know, the emotional intensity of that reality.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (26:58): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Shanna Pearson (27:00): You're living with something that's... It, it is invisible, especially for girls. You know?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (27:05): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (27:05): It is... You cannot see any of this. Even the symptoms are not disruptive for other people, and so we are constantly going under the radar. And, and that in itself is so difficult to be living with-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (27:20): Yes, absolutely

Shanna Pearson (27:20): ... because you are wired so differently. That's a big deal. It's not just like, "Oh, yeah, okay, fine. I, I think differently." Great, no you're not. (laughs) You don't just think differently-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (27:28): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (27:28): ... you are wired differently. You experience life differently.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (27:33): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (27:34): And not knowing why is, is very hard, which is, you know, which is why (laughs) when you do know why-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (27:40): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (27:40): ... and you know it's fixable and you can start doing things differently, everything changes so fast in the best way possible.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (27:47): Okay. Love it. Well, and as I love to say, once we explain what's going on, then there's an opportunity for self-compassion, because one of the things that women do, of course, is we blame ourselves and internalize everything, right?

Shanna Pearson (28:00): Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (28:00): The culture has taught us to do that, so we just are doing what we've been taught since the day we were born, and actually let's have some understanding of what's actually going on. A woman is more likely to be misdiagnosed with anxiety and depression because of the loss of estrogen in her 40s, but what if it's ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (28:20): Mm-hmm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (28:20): Then the solution isn't an antidepressant or an anti-anxiety medication-

Shanna Pearson (28:24): Mm-mm. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (28:24): ... at all. Let's talk about that.

Shanna Pearson (28:26): So here's... So here's the thing. I wanna talk about anxiety and depression. May I?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (28:31): Please.

Shanna Pearson (28:32): Because I have a visual, and I know that not everyone, most people are not gonna see this, but, um, but a few people will, and I'll t- and I'll try to talk it out loud. Okay. When you are a woman and you have... You were born with ADHD, just like I was saying earlier, you have always been the square peg trying to fit into a round hole. You have been misunderstood by almost everyone. For some unknown reason, because you don't know yet, (laughs) you cannot get from point A to point B easily. You tend to have, um, a much more stressful and dramatic life (laughs) than most of your peers.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (29:08): Ooh, women.

Shanna Pearson (29:08): You tend to be... Mm-hmm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (29:10): Pause that for a second.

Shanna Pearson (29:11): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (29:11): Did you guys hear that? A more stressful and dramatic life.

Shanna Pearson (29:15): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (29:15): In case the ladies who are listening go, "Why am I always in trouble? Why is there always some drama coming in? Why am I waiting for the next shoe to drop? Why is this always the case?"

Shanna Pearson (29:27): Why does this stuff always happen to me?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (29:29): Happen to me? Yes. Yes. Yes. Go on.

Shanna Pearson (29:34): Here's why. (laughs) So you've been living in this re- And, and I want, first of all, if anyone relates to this, I need you to know that you are absolutely not alone, and in fact, you're in the best company possible. (laughs) So, so there are so many millions, uh, (laughs) of women in exi- you know, a very, very similar situation as yourself, even if none of them are directly around you and you don't know who they are yet. So that's number one. (laughs) Two, you've been living like this your whole life and, you know, you don't know why it's hard for you to get into your career. You don't know why it's hard for you to balance different areas of your life, you know, whether it's kids, jobs, um, a relationship, your friendships.

(30:15) Why do you, you know, never get back to people? Why are people always complaining that you're always late and, and complaining that you're... you know, you never take them seriously or you're not, you know, X, Y, Z. It makes you feel terrible about yourself, and not just with your relationships, but with your career, you know, your health. You can't stick to a health regime (laughs) for longer than, like, three weeks or whatever it is. You end up, as a woman in middle age, feeling terrible. You feel terrible about yourself and you're not proud of any of your accomplishments, and you say... You know, you talk to your doctor about this when you go for your yearly checkup.

(30:46) Guess what they're gonna do. (laughs) They're gonna give you an assessment, and almost all of us have gotten one of these. You know, when we go for our yearly checkups, they're like, "Okay, you're not feeling great. You're feeling sad. You're feeling discouraged. Here's an assessment for anxiety and a- and, and depression." And the reason you'll get those assessments is 'cause those are the defaults.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (31:06): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (31:07): So I'm showing this on, on camera, but if you don't see it, the GAD-7 is the standard anxiety screening tool that they give you, like, just... It's like, it's just standard. This is what they'll give you. The problem is is that this, this screening tool for anxiety has seven, seven statements, and every single one of these is a symptom for ADHD.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (31:31): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (31:32): (laughs) So-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (31:32): Oh my God

Shanna Pearson (31:32): ... feeling nervous-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (31:33): (laughs) Yep

Shanna Pearson (31:35): ... feeling nervous-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (31:35): Not being able to stop

Shanna Pearson (31:36): ... not being able to stop worrying, worrying too much. I mean, ADHD women are expert professional catastrophizers. Trouble relaxing. I don't know a single woman with ADHD who has an easy time relaxing. Being restless, it can be hard to sit still. Becoming easily annoyed or irritable-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (31:54): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (31:54): ... that's, like, a huge thing 'cause we're so impatient, we need everything yesterday. Um, you know, feeling afraid as if something might happen, catastrophizing once again. These are all, all seven of these are ADHD symptoms for women.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (32:06): Wow.

Shanna Pearson (32:06): So you have ADHD, and you are a woman, and you're given this, you know, assessment. Guess what? Now you're gonna be likely prescribed an anti-anxiety medication.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (32:15): Yep.

Shanna Pearson (32:15): And it's almost identical with depression-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (32:18): Yep

Shanna Pearson (32:18): ... because the standard, uh, depression screening is called the PHQ-9. And on the PHQ-9, which they'll give you on a clipboard at your doctor's office- (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (32:28): Yep

Shanna Pearson (32:28): ... there are nine statements, and eight of the nine-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (32:33): Ah

Shanna Pearson (32:33): ... are ADHD symptoms.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (32:36): Amazing.

Shanna Pearson (32:36): Eight of the nine. Once again, you know, feeling down. I just said, you just went to your doctor, your life isn't working out. Of course you feel down. You have trouble falling or staying asleep. I feel like that's all of us. Poor appetite or overeating.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (32:51): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (32:51): Women with ADHD tend to be one or the other. Um, feeling bad about yourself, trouble concentrating on things.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (33:01): Wow.

Shanna Pearson (33:01): (laughs) So, you know, uh, being fidgety and restless, and you, you know, you need to move around a lot, you know? And so-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (33:07): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (33:07): ... except for the very last one, which is 100% depression, you will be assessed and, and likely being, you know, prescribed (laughs) some- an antidepressant.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (33:17): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (33:17): You know, you'll be assessed with depression, and your doctor may very well just prescribe you medication for that. And so in the meantime, you're living with ADHD.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (33:26): Yes. Yes.

Shanna Pearson (33:26): So now you're taking medica- you're being mismedicated. You've been-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (33:29): Yep

Shanna Pearson (33:29): ... misdiagnosed, mismedicated. Your ADHD is not getting any better.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (33:33): Yep. Yep.

Shanna Pearson (33:34): So how do you think you feel now that you've actually seen a doctor and, and you're actually following their advice and taking medication-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (33:42): Yep

Shanna Pearson (33:42): ... and you're still not feeling better?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (33:43): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (33:43): It just makes things that much worse, and that's, to me, what's the most heartbreaking, is because you have everyone, you know, has the best intentions, and you even went to your doctor and you talked about it and you, you took these assessments and they gave you a prescription, and you're doing it every single day. You're even remembering to, you know, to take your medication-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (34:00): Yep

Shanna Pearson (34:00): ... and your life is still not working.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (34:03): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (34:04): So it's like everything now times 10. It's just, it's just bad. Now not even that doesn't even work for me. But meanwhile- (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (34:11): Yeah, yeah

Shanna Pearson (34:11): ... you were just misdiagnosed, and in fact, you actually have ADHD, and maybe, you know, maybe you need medication, maybe not, it doesn't matter, but you need to do the strategies and the tools and the techniques and whatever you need to do to get things to work out for you. You are able to now go from point A to point B. (laughs) You're able to, you know, learn how to communicate better. You're able to learn how to be more organized and on time and, and, you know, just more, like, trust yourself, and how do you think that's gonna affect your emotions-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (34:37): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (34:37): ... and your anxiety? You're gonna feel 100 times better.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (34:42): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (34:43): S-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (34:44): Absolutely. Fascinating. So it's, it's not dissimilar to, um... I have a friend who's done surveys, uh, of women, thousands of women, asking them a- what their most common menopause symptoms are.

Shanna Pearson (34:59): Oh, yeah. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (35:00): And of the top 10, nine of them are brain-based.

Shanna Pearson (35:03): Yes.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (35:04): So-

Shanna Pearson (35:05): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (35:05): ... medicine does not understand that at all. They see that... They, they s- they hear a woman is having anxiety, depression, just as you said, and they go, "Okay. It's anxiety. Here's an anti-anxiety pill. Take it for the rest of your life. You'll be fine."

Shanna Pearson (35:18): Right.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (35:18): So we have this sort of, um, misdiagnosing happening, and, and I think one of the things that makes it difficult to get, uh, medicine loves protocols.

Shanna Pearson (35:30): Mm-hmm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (35:30): And as we started this conversation with, every single woman with menopausal symptoms is different and needs a different kind of treatment. You said the same thing about women with ADHD.

Shanna Pearson (35:43): Yep.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (35:43): So there, it, there's not a, it's not a linear thing. It's not a, "You've got hot flashes. Here's the estrogen. You're fine." It's-

Shanna Pearson (35:51): Right. There's no one size fits all.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (35:53): Absolutely. And when we're-

Shanna Pearson (35:54): Right

Dr. Fiona Lovely (35:54): ... talking about a patriarchal system like medicine, that is a difficult thing to pull off.

Shanna Pearson (35:59): Mm-hmm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (35:59): Right?

Shanna Pearson (36:00): Yep.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (36:00): So this is, this is why the show exists, Shanna, is so that women can advocate for themselves through the information we deliver on this show.

Shanna Pearson (36:09): Good. Good.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (36:10): So-

Shanna Pearson (36:11): So if you've been diagnosed- (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (36:13): Yes

Shanna Pearson (36:13): ... with anxiety or depression, and for some reason that you can't quite put your finger on, (laughs) you know, you're, you're still not feeling the way you wanna be feeling, right? And you think perhaps it ha- it, it is ADHD, maybe you do have ADHD, if... You know, the one thing I would, I would say in terms of wanting to know whether it's ADHD or not, there's a couple things you will ask yourself before you, you need to see any professional. Number one, have the symptoms that you're experiencing, have these been symptoms for your entire life?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (36:44): Ooh, that's good.

Shanna Pearson (36:45): Not just in the last five years, (laughs) not just in even the last 10 years, or not since COVID or any, anything like that. Have you been doing these things for your whole life as far as you can remember? Because a proper ADHD diagnosis will go back in your history. And so that's number one. Number two, the, the symptom that is not on the, you know, the anxiety and depression scales, nor, I'm gonna highlight this, nor is it on the ADHD assessment, but it should be-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (37:15): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (37:16): ... because the ADHD assessment is very executive function based. You said you had your husband do it, and, and so you know the assessment I'm talking about. There's nothing-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (37:23): Yep

Shanna Pearson (37:23): ... in there on the emotional spectrum. Nothing.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (37:26): Nope.

Shanna Pearson (37:26): And women who have ADHD have-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (37:28): Right here

Shanna Pearson (37:28): ... all of the emo- Ex- exact-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (37:30): Yep

Shanna Pearson (37:30): ... I have the same thing. I'll show it to you.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (37:32): Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Shanna Pearson (37:32): (laughs) So have all of the emotional, emotional symptoms-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (37:36): Yes

Shanna Pearson (37:36): ... which are not on that checklist. And so if you're a woman with ADHD, you still might be misdiagnosed. You need to... So, so number one, so here's what, if you're a woman and you think you might have ADHD, have you had these symptoms your whole life? Have you felt like, you know, it's hard for you to go from one pla- you know, point A to point B? Is it really hard for you to stay on track? Is it, do you feel like you have a gajillion things going on in your mind all at the same time? And do you experience overwhelm- To the point where you feel totally paralyzed

Dr. Fiona Lovely (38:04): Paralyzed. Ugh, I saw that coming.

Shanna Pearson (38:07): Where it's like-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (38:07): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (38:08): ... I call it the deer caught in headlights syndrome. And if you've had that deer caught in headlights syndrome where you're just, like, sitting completely still and no one can tell that there's anything going on with you, but you are just, like, spinning-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (38:20): Spinning. Yes

Shanna Pearson (38:21): ... at a, you know, again, at a million miles an hour-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (38:23): Yep

Shanna Pearson (38:23): ... you know, not going anywhere.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (38:25): Yep.

Shanna Pearson (38:25): Um, if that has been a part of your day-to-day since you can remember, please go to see an ADHD specialist that has a lot of experience working with women.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (38:36): Yes. Yes. 100-

Shanna Pearson (38:38): That is, that is what I'm telling you. Like, you ne- you know, if you wanna know that you have ADHD, go to a specialist, but go to somebody who understands how women experience ADHD.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (38:47): Yes. Very different. And my understanding of it, the best way I've heard this described, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, is that many of us were missed in terms of being diagnosed when we were kids because for women, the H part, the hyperactivity part, is internal.

Shanna Pearson (39:04): Mm-hmm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (39:04): So we were not disrupting classrooms the way little boys did.

Shanna Pearson (39:08): Correct. Correct. We were seeking stimulus in our mind, (laughs) which means, you know, you're attracted to... You're... You don't know this, by the way. This is completely unc- like, you're unconsciously doing this, but you're attracted to drama. You know?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (39:24): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (39:24): We te- it's kind of like a magnet in a way. We're attracted to, like, the most engaging, stimulating things. We overthink. That's why we're such great catastrophizers, because it's like what we say, you know, w- in the media, "if it bleeds, it leads," right? And so you'll never see a newspaper with a boring headline. Your brain does not create boring headlines, 'cause your brain is amazing at creating high-impact, high-stimulus, "Oh my God, what's gonna happen?" You know-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (39:55): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (39:55): ... "This is gonna happen. This is never gonna work out. I'm not gonna be able to do this. What if that hap-..." Like, all of these really high-stimulus headlines are constantly flashing through your brain every single day, and it's stressful. It is so stressful, and it's our day-to-day life, because that's-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (40:13): Mm

Shanna Pearson (40:13): ... stimulating, and we need that stimulus. Our brain creates that extra, you know, stimulus just to keep ourselves on some kind of, like, homeostasis, (laughs) but it doesn't work 'cause it's so stressful.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (40:25): Is that just about dopamine?

Shanna Pearson (40:28): Yeah. I, I mean, that's as, as far as I know, we have less dopamine available to our brain, and we don't know, we still don't know why, Fiona, whether, you know, our brain is cr- not creating enough or whether less is a bit, like, entering through, you know, reuptake (laughs)-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (40:43): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (40:43): ... whether less dopamine is, is entering our brain. We don't know, but what we do know-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (40:47): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (40:47): ... is that there's less dopamine available in our brain.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (40:52): Absolutely.

Shanna Pearson (40:52): And it's always been like that, not just since you started going through perimenopause.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (40:57): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (40:58): But that said, a lot of women have managed to, not knowing what was going on with them, not knowing that what- they were living with ADHD, they still created tools and systems that, you know, help them get from point A to point B, and they're having an okay, pretty good life, and maybe, you know, even a fantastic life, but then they hit perimenopause.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (41:17): Uh-huh. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (41:17): And now your, you know, your estrogen levels are now on a decline, and estrogen, this is important, everyone take notes-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (41:25): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (41:25): ... estrogen regulates dopamine.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (41:28): Yep.

Shanna Pearson (41:29): So when your estrogen levels decline, your dopamine levels decline.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (41:34): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (41:34): And for a woman with ADHD, your declining dopamine levels are already at a very low level. So now all of those sy- systems and tools that you've been, like, using to get by in your life, they effectively stop working, because now your dopamine level just, like, plummeted.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (41:50): Plummeted. Okay. So not only does dopamine regulate dop-

Shanna Pearson (41:56): Estrogen regulate dopamine

Dr. Fiona Lovely (41:57): ... estrogen regulate dopamine, but it, there also is, like, an affinity thing that happens with the es- with the neuroreceptors. I mean, it's just, it's such a fascinating thing, and then you've got the decline of progesterone, which affects the GABA system, which is that calming system, and then we've got the loss of testosterone. Anyways.

Shanna Pearson (42:16): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (42:16): So what I wanna... I think this is an excellent place to say when estrogen declines, dopamine-

Shanna Pearson (42:24): When estrogen declines, dopamine declines

Dr. Fiona Lovely (42:27): ... declines. Yes.

Shanna Pearson (42:27): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (42:28): Dopamine declines, and we are no longer able to mask the ADHD. What the hell does that mean? Shanna, break it down for us, please.

Shanna Pearson (42:37): It means we've been getting a ton of clients and women in their 40s and 50s (laughs) all of the sudden who've been... 'Cause menopause, thank God, has-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (42:46): Yes

Shanna Pearson (42:46): ... has, has, you know, hit the limelight.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (42:48): Having a moment. Yes.

Shanna Pearson (42:48): Thank goodness-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (42:49): Goodness, yes

Shanna Pearson (42:49): ... it is such a blessing that this has happened for us, such a huge blessing.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (42:53): Absolutely.

Shanna Pearson (42:53): And so women are learning about this, and all of the sudden they're, like, connecting the dots. And so we've had a surge of clients, you know, entering our program, just, like, women in this exact age range because they can no longer manage it themselves, nor should they have to-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (43:08): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (43:08): ... because it is literally, it is so difficult.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (43:11): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (43:11): It is so difficult when you're going through perimenopause-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (43:14): Yes

Shanna Pearson (43:14): ... and, and once you've hit menopause and it's just, like, you know, you're, you already have a brain that, that has a lower amount of dopamine. Like, what are you doing? (laughs) You know?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (43:24): Absolutely.

Shanna Pearson (43:25): Just-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (43:25): Absolutely.

Shanna Pearson (43:26): Yeah. So-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (43:26): So-

Shanna Pearson (43:26): ... all it means is that, honestly, it's not... All it means is that the tools that you needed or that would've been awesome for you to have 20 years ago, you definitely need them now.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (43:38): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (43:38): That's all it means, and those tools are gonna work for you, whether you're 20 or whether you're 50 or 60.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (43:45): Yes. Yes. What does masking mean? Break that down, please.

Shanna Pearson (43:49): It just means you have to a- act like somebody who you think you're not.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (43:56): Oh.

Shanna Pearson (43:57): You know? You just have to put on, you just have to put on a different persona for most of your day, whether it's in your marriage or whether it's, like, with your kids or whether it's at work, and it's not your, it's not the person, the persona that we feel is our true self.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (44:12): Wow

Shanna Pearson (44:12): You know? Because then you get home at the end of the day or after, you know, masking all day long, and you are freaking exhausted-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (44:20): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (44:20): ... 'cause you've had to put it on that whole time.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (44:23): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (44:24): But I, I do wanna say that that mask that you've been putting on, unless it's been given to you by someone else and scripted, you know, like, "Here, you have to be this person," the mask that you've been putting on is still coming from you.

(44:42) And I think people don't give that enough credit because they're like, "Well, that's not really me. I've been masking all day, all life, all month, all year, all, you know, for the last 50 years I've been masking." But you've been masking with a creation that is yours.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (45:00): Like an idealized version of yourself?

Shanna Pearson (45:03): I don't know if it's idealized, but it could be. It's just the one that can get by. But it's still your creation. Your... It's your mask. (laughs) It's your baby, you know? Like-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (45:13): Right

Shanna Pearson (45:13): ... this is, this is what you've come up with. This is what's gotten you by. Don't hate it.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (45:18): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (45:18): Don't hate it.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (45:19): Oh, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (45:19): I, I feel like, I feel like we need to embrace the mask that we've been creating because it's part of us.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (45:25): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (45:25): It's part of us, and so many women and men, especially men, by the way, (laughs) if we're allowed to say that on this show, but have been professional maskers, and they're so angry about that. And I think there's a lot of shift that happens when we realize, like, that mask is still-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (45:44): A part of us

Shanna Pearson (45:45): ... a part of us. It's still us. And you did a great job, and that part of you that's been getting you by for the last a- X amount of years, that's still you. It's an element of you. It might not be your deepest, most emotional, you know, you know, your deeper emotional self, but it is definitely an aspect of you.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (46:06): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (46:06): Own it. Own it.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (46:08): This is, um, one of those things that I feel will be the space for self-compassion-

Shanna Pearson (46:15): Huh

Dr. Fiona Lovely (46:15): ... when somebody understands what you just explained. Um, again, when we understand what's happening, we no longer blame ourselves, and I think that's a really, a really beautiful, beautiful place to be. (upbeat music) Here's something that might surprise you. When our estrogen drops during menopause, we don't just lose protection for our bones and our brain. We lose estrogen's protective effects on our heart.

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Shanna Pearson (48:13): Right.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (48:13): Okay, um, low self-esteem, let's talk about that. How does that factor into ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (48:20): Well, you've, you've... Especially for women, because most of us were not diagnosed as kids. If we were born in the '70s or '80s, and at least the first half of the '90s, we were not diagnosed as children.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (48:36): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (48:36): And so we grew up, in our formative years and even through our young adult years, not knowing what the heck is going on with us, not understanding ourselves, and not being understood by others. Um, a lot of us have had really hard times, um, in relationships. A lot of us have had a really hard time, you know, with, you know, teachers or, you know, employers. (laughs) You know, "Why can't I just..." And you're constantly asking yourself that question for your entire life. You're not gonna feel good about yourself, and that is lo- you know, low self-esteem is, like, this deeper, like, this worthiness of, you know, belief of there's something... There's, like, there's a, there's an, a, a belief that there's something innately wrong with me.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (49:26): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (49:26): And there's something wrong with me that makes me, quote, unquote, "not good enough." And that is why 100% (laughs) of people that I speak to, 100%, have challenges with self-esteem. They have low self-esteem. Even the multi-multi-multi-multi self-made millionaires, (laughs) the CEOs of gigantic companies, it doesn't matter how outwardly successful you are. Every person with ADHD, especially the ones that have been going, you know, going undiagnosed for so many years, have-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (50:07): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (50:07): ... low self-esteem.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (50:09): Wow.

Shanna Pearson (50:10): It's, it's, it's always, it always goes hand-in-hand because you're different. You don't know why. No one knew why, and you're constantly, you know, made to be, like, wrong.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (50:21): Yeah. Okay. So it seems to me that... Thank you for that explanation, by the way. Um-

Shanna Pearson (50:27): Does that make sense?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (50:28): Oh, yes, it does.

Shanna Pearson (50:29): Okay.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (50:29): You bet it does.

Shanna Pearson (50:30): Good. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (50:30): Absolutely. And these are the kinds of conversations I'm having with women who... You know, I- I'm very sensitive to the fact that there are more women who take their lives in their 40s and early 50s than at any other time in our life, and I know that that is a misunderstanding is what happens there. And of course, there's lots of reasons for that to happen, but I just wish women had more comprehensive care that was individualized to what was going on. We would, I imagine, prevent a good portion of that if we just did. So I think you sharing these things as you h- as you have today, again, is gonna open up that space for self-compassion to say, "I'm not broken.

(51:16) This is not-"

Shanna Pearson (51:16): Not at all.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (51:17): Ex-

Shanna Pearson (51:17): Mm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (51:18): Exactly. And haven't we had to have that r- did you have that recogniz- r- did you recognize that in yourself?

Shanna Pearson (51:23): Oh, yeah, especially when I started realizing how easy, (laughs) this is gonna sound crazy, how easily fixable. It's like using the right hairbrush.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (51:32): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (51:33): Like, oh, you mean I just have to do that? You mean I only have to do this? Uh, okay. Nobody else ever told me that, (laughs) you know?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (51:41): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (51:41): It's just, it's like, it's like wait a second. This is actually... This is not that difficult.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (51:48): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (51:48): It is not. This is not that difficult, and yet your teachers didn't know it. Your parents didn't know it. Your friends don't know it. Nobody else knew what to tell you to do. You didn't think about what you could do, you know, differently. You're just so badly trying to do things the way all of your friends are doing them, and everyone else you know is doing them, and all the latest, you know, TikTok videos are telling you what to do and whatever. It's not working for you. Guess what? Of course, it's not working for you. It shouldn't be working for you. It should not be working for your brain. These other things can work for your brain, you know?

(52:19) Try that-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (52:20): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (52:20): ... and then you'll see how quickly, once you start doing things differently in a way that works with how your brain is wired, once you start doing that, you yourself will see. You will not need me to say this. You will see how fast things change for you.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (52:36): Amazing. So for those women who are listening and wondering what those things are, please read the book, Invisible ADHD, because you break it down. You give us the tactical goodies in there, and thank you for that.

Shanna Pearson (52:48): Oh, my gosh. Can I... Like, honestly, I, I put way too much in this book. It's a little overwhelming, (laughs) but-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (52:53): It's amazing

Shanna Pearson (52:53): ... there are, there are literally over 100 of our coaching tools in this book. Um, and you know, like, there's, like, there's best-selling books that have, like, one tool and that are like (laughs)-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (53:05): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (53:06): ... where they're, "Here's your one tool, and let's talk about it for 300 pages." And there's something beautiful about that, right? And but, but this is kind of the opposite. (laughs) This is, like, so many tools only because... Well, I started off with, you know, and you d- y- not everything is gonna work for everyone, but the fact is, is I can absolutely guarantee you that at least, you know, five of these tools are gonna work for every single reader. And, and if you can implement even one of those five, your life is going to become easier-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (53:33): Uh

Shanna Pearson (53:33): ... and you will feel better, and that is my promise.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (53:37): Which is amazing. Um, and, uh, you know it because, as you said, you've taken care of thousands of women at this point, um, uh, men and women-

Shanna Pearson (53:45): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (53:45): ... thousands of people with ADHD.

Shanna Pearson (53:47): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (53:48): So-

Shanna Pearson (53:48): So we know these work. We do them every... Like, this is what we do. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (53:50): This is what you do.

Shanna Pearson (53:52): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (53:52): Okay. How do you gamify the tasks you want to do the least?

Shanna Pearson (53:58): How do you gamify-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (53:59): Gamify

Shanna Pearson (53:59): ... the task?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (54:00): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (54:00): Well, there's... There are so many ways to, to gamify it. Depends on what's fun for you. You know, like, we have people who just, like, incorporate, um, timers, and, you know, "I have to beat my time from last time," and, or, you know, I could get y- like, "Fiona, I'm gonna do this, and we're gonna do this at the same time, okay? Like, and then, and l- let's see, like, who can do it first." You know, now I'm competing against you, so there's competition. There's a self-competition. There's competition with other people. There's blasting music and putting on your sneakers while you're doing boring tasks, which for some reason (laughs) just makes it more enjoyable, you know?

(54:39) You wanna, like, just, like... Just putting on sneakers, you know? Um, we have, we have a bunch of our college students love this, where there's s- you know, physical state changes that we will have people do in the middle of a boring task to kind of, like, up the energy. Um, you know, even if it's just, like, you know, whether you're doing wall pushups or whether you're running up and down the stairs or doing door slaps in your house, whatever it is. But you know, we'll have people roll a dice to tell them what state change they should do so that they never know what they're gonna do. It's not predictable. But those are just, like, some super simple, you know, how to make it more enjoyable so you're not just, like, going through the motions.

(55:20) You have to mix things up. You have to make it a little bit unpredictable. That's why I like the dice, (laughs) 'cause-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:25): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (55:25): ... you don't actually know what your state change-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:26): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (55:26): ... is gonna be.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:27): Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (55:28): Um, and then, you know, and then do it. Don't just talk about it. Don't just listen to me talk about it on this-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:33): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (55:33): ... podcast.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:35): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (55:35): Do it.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:36): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (55:36): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:36): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (55:37): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:37): Okay, this is, this is good, 'cause I see my husband struggle with tasks all the time.

Shanna Pearson (55:42): Sure.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:42): I am not that person. I love to organize my to-do list so that I can do them in some sort of order that makes sense to my brain. That's what-

Shanna Pearson (55:49): Mm

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:49): ... works for me.

Shanna Pearson (55:50): Good.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:50): But I always say to him, "Do the things you don't wanna do first because then the other stuff isn't so bad." (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (55:56): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (55:57): So I don't know if that actually works. How does that... Does that tactic track for ADHD or not?

Shanna Pearson (56:02): I think it tracks a little bit. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (56:04): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (56:04): There's part of it that tracks. Here's what I would tell you. There's, in my book I talk about this, you probably already know this, but mood scheduling.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (56:13): Oh, my god.

Shanna Pearson (56:13): Okay, so-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (56:14): Let's talk about this. Yes.

Shanna Pearson (56:15): It's not about doing the tasks you don't wanna do first. It's about doing the tasks you don't wanna do at your highest energy time of day. So if you're a morning person, which many of us are not, by the way, (laughs) but if you are, do those tasks in the morning. If you're a, if you're a 9:00 PM, you know, high-energy person, that's when you actually do those tasks. Like, you have to first track what are your high-energy times, what are your lower-energy times, and, and write down what they are because there's usually more than one of those times a day. You usually have more than one high-energy time a day. You usually have more than one low-energy time a day.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (56:56): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (56:56): Know what those times are. Do the tasks you don't wanna do your, and you, and also your more difficult tasks, do those at your high-energy time. Do the tasks that you do wanna do, and also your easier tasks, at your low-energy times.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (57:15): That's a great idea.

Shanna Pearson (57:16): That is a game-changer.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (57:18): Nice.

Shanna Pearson (57:18): It is a game-changer.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (57:20): Hey.

Shanna Pearson (57:20): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (57:20): Wow. I mean, never mind-

Shanna Pearson (57:21): It's working with your own circadian rhythm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (57:24): Oh, it's beautiful. It really is. It's, it's, uh, it's biohacking in a way-

Shanna Pearson (57:29): Yep

Dr. Fiona Lovely (57:29): ... if, if you'll, if you'll let me, uh, say it that way.

Shanna Pearson (57:31): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (57:31): But, um, I love that. That is... mood scheduling. I'm r-

Shanna Pearson (57:35): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (57:35): ... I'm looking at my notes. Mood scheduling is what you've called it.

Shanna Pearson (57:38): Yeah, mood scheduling.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (57:39): Oh.

Shanna Pearson (57:39): It's, um-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (57:40): It's so good

Shanna Pearson (57:40): ... it's, it literally works for 100% of all people (laughs) who've tried it, so... And I would, you know, I'd, I'd say every single one of our clients, you know, utilizes that.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (57:49): Well, and I... Let's talk about moods now for a second, 'cause it's come up. So I see a lot, I hear from the women that I work with that they have this sort of irrational moodiness. Now-

Shanna Pearson (58:01): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (58:01): ... is this, is this a hormone thing? Is it a ADHD thing? What's goin' on here?

Shanna Pearson (58:06): Well, because we have a brain that cannot compartmentalize, and I haven't said that yet on this podcast. (laughs) But the thing about ADHD is that we don't have compartments. A lot of people are able to compartmentalize, and we can't. It's very difficult for us, which leads to the overwhelm, because, you know, if you have, let's say the average person has 20 things that they have to think about all at the same time that are, you know, y- whatever. In your mind right now, there might be 20 things going on. Most people can compartmentalize those thoughts. "Well, I have to do this then. I have to talk to my wife about that," or, "I have to talk to my husband about this," or, "I have to do this for my kids, and this is what I need to do for work," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

(58:46) For a person with ADHD, all of those thoughts are going through your brain in the exact same place, like a smoothie. (laughs) It's all in one blender. And so it's, that is why we feel so overwhelmed all the time, because there's no place to put anything, and it's the same thing with our moods. (laughs) There's no like, "I feel sad. I'm gonna put this sad over here. I'm gonna try to forget about it, and I'm gonna focus on the positive." You can't do that if you have a brain that can't compartmentalize, because that positive is like, it's there, but the sadness is taking over everything, and it's kind of, it's like what, what I say in, in, in the book and when I say, you know, to our clients, it's like, it's like water.

(59:26) It's just like seeping through everything. And so whatever mood we are experiencing, it's taking over all of our mind and our brain (laughs) and our soul. It's just like i- there's no place for it, which is why we're so mood-dependent, and we c- tend to do what we feel like doing because our moods actually run our lives, because our moods are powerful and they take over everything in our mind. There's no compartment for the mood.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:00:02): Ooh.

Shanna Pearson (1:00:02): I hope that makes sense.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:00:04): Yeah. I'm like-

Shanna Pearson (1:00:05): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:00:05): ... speechless on that because-

Shanna Pearson (1:00:07): Oh, good. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:00:07): I've, uh, I have seen that in action, um, and I've had so many women tell me that this is what's going on, and I'm over here thinking, "Well, is this a, a fuel problem? Is it a glucose problem? Is it an estrogen problem? Does it mean-

Shanna Pearson (1:00:22): It can be helped with that. It can be.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:00:25): Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:00:25): If you can, if you can... You know, there's ways to, to moderate our, our moods.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:00:31): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:00:31): But the fact is, regardless, the moods take over, (laughs) and there's nowhere for them to go except for everywhere.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:00:39): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:00:39): And so that's why we're so... That's why our moods are such a big part of our personality.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:00:46): Oof. This-

Shanna Pearson (1:00:47): And, and why our moods are such... If you look at your results, you'll notice (laughs) and you look at, you know, good results and bad results, 100-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:00:55): Yes

Shanna Pearson (1:00:55): ... like just look at your results, all of it, the good, the bad, the medium. You'll notice that a lot of this had mood in the background, good mood, energized mood, negative mood, sadness, despondency. It's all there. Our results are usually affected by our moods, which is why people with ADHD, if our moods are up and down, and up and down based on, you know, what somebody said to us, based on what we had for breakfast, based on whatever, our results, for people with ADHD, tend to look exactly the same, (laughs) up and down. Our results are up and down, just like our moods.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:01:31): Wow. So this compartmentalizing or the inability to compartmentalize, I have never thought of it like that. That is fascinating.

Shanna Pearson (1:01:38): That's everything. That's everything.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:01:41): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:01:41): Um, our inability to compartmentalize is the root cause (laughs) of all of our ADHD symptoms, our overwhelm, our impulsivity, our dis- you know, our, our challenges with organization, our challenges with time, our difficulty communicating clearly, 'cause you think you can't... It's hard to compartmentalize. How are you gonna know? Like, how can you communicate in a straight line? We tend to go everywhere, (laughs) in circles-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:02:10): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (1:02:10): ... and all around and back again. Um, it is honestly the source of all of our ADHD symptoms.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:02:19): Wow. Again, another check mark for deep understanding of what's going on in our brain.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:25): It's huge. It's really... And it's important for people to know that because- A lot of people who have ADHD are, you know, we're called, you know, lazy or flaky or, you know, despondent or just, like, disorganized or-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:02:39): Negative

Shanna Pearson (1:02:39): ... you know-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:02:40): Verbal

Shanna Pearson (1:02:40): ... God, get it together, man. You're so disrespectful, and why can't you just be on time? And you know, name it, right? But if you imagine that that person has a brain (laughs) that cannot compartmentalize, they're no longer lazy. They're just living inside of this, like, everything all at once right now-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:02:59): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (1:02:59): ... (laughs) reality.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:00): Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:03:00): And it's the same thing. How are you supposed to get from point A to point B if you're also, (laughs) you know, going in these 50,000 million directions and it's really hard for you to, to rein it in?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:11): Right.

Shanna Pearson (1:03:11): Because your brain doesn't do it naturally, right? But there are ways to do this, which obviously I talk about in the book, and I talk about it, you know-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:17): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (1:03:17): ... my whole life. Like, this is what we do.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:19): Yep.

Shanna Pearson (1:03:19): There are ways to do this. We just don't do it naturally, right? If you never took care with your hair, Fiona, (laughs) and you just woke up (laughs)-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:30): Oh, Lord

Shanna Pearson (1:03:30): ... and went out the door-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:31): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (1:03:32): ... and I don't even... You and every other person with curly hair that I know, forget about it.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:36): Yeah, it's not happening.

Shanna Pearson (1:03:38): You have to... It's not happening. You just have to do things, right?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:41): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:03:41): You gotta put the product. You gotta do... Whatever it is that you do, you have to do it, and then your hair looks amazing.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:47): Thank... Yes.

Shanna Pearson (1:03:47): Amazing.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:48): But, but-

Shanna Pearson (1:03:48): Right?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:48): ... but I had to learn that, right?

Shanna Pearson (1:03:50): You have to learn it. It's not natural. If you were born in a, in a time where nobody talked about this, like back in the, you know... If you were born in the 1200s (laughs) with the same hair-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:03:59): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (1:03:59): ... you would just have really frizzy hair. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:04:02): Yep, yep. There was no product back then, nope. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (1:04:04): You know what I mean? But so knowing about it, and, and you, and it's not that difficult. You know, you put the right product in, and you, you fig- you, you know about it now. It's the exact same thing with ADHD management.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:04:15): Interesting.

Shanna Pearson (1:04:16): We have a brain that cannot compartmentalize. There are ways that we can do things that create compartmentalization for ourselves and for our lives. That's what we do. All of the sudden, it's like the angels are singing and, like, the sky is open, and you are free.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:04:34): Wow.

Shanna Pearson (1:04:34): You are free, and you are in control, and you're in the driver's seat, and you're able to do whatever it is that you want to do. And I know that. I know that that's possible because I see it every single day.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:04:47): Wow. So you've taken all of this wisdom that you've learned over treating your own AG- ADHD and then sharing it with others and then coaching, and you've put it into this book, and you have a coaching program as well. Can you talk about that-

Shanna Pearson (1:04:59): Yeah

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:05:00): ... please?

Shanna Pearson (1:05:01): Um, which part? Well, I can talk (laughs) the coaching-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:05:03): The coaching, the coaching program

Shanna Pearson (1:05:04): ... the coaching program-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:05:04): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (1:05:04): ... came before the book. You know, all I d-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:05:06): Okay

Shanna Pearson (1:05:06): ... I just wanted to... I just really wanted to help people like me. You know, it's like-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:05:12): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (1:05:12): ... (laughs) a coaching program for people with ADHD is, like, the worst business decision anyone can make.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:05:17): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (1:05:18): Like, let's be honest. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:05:21): Yep.

Shanna Pearson (1:05:21): Okay, we're working with people who are always losing their wallet (laughs) and, like, can't pay for, you know, always late on bills and, you know, whatever. So this is not... This was not like, ooh, let's start... I've never taken a business program in my life, like ever. I don't know anything about that. I s- I still don't really. I just wanted to help people, and so I started, um, you know, taking what I knew worked for me and my f- you know, the people that I was friends with and, you know, that I was helping, and I started slowly, slowly helping other people. It didn't become what it is now, because it's, it's got, it's really big now, until I started hiring other coaches to be me.

(1:05:58) I started... And they had to be me. They had to be like mini-mes, (laughs) you know?

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:06:01): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (1:06:01): So it's really hard for us to hire incredible coaches, but, you know, we do. And I, I don't have a product. I don't have, um, a group coaching program because I don't think (laughs) that those things work as effectively as what we do, which is really just one-on-one, you know, over the phone or video, but it is one-on-one. So every coach works with one person at a time with their specific challenges and their issues, and we take you, you know, figuratively by the hands, (laughs) pull you out of the quicksand, and get you, you know, doing the actions that you need to do until you're on your way and, and doing things completely differently, you know, with the same personality and the same awesomeness that you are but just doing things differently in a way that works with your brain and for your life.

(1:06:55) And that's all we do. We have, you know, a coaching company that does one thing, one-on-one coaching.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:07:01): Amazing.

Shanna Pearson (1:07:02): And you know, you can find us at adhdcoaching.com.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:07:05): Please, yes. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:07:06): adhdcoaching.com. It's pretty simple. And, um, and, and that's it, and I insist that every single client get what they came for because-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:07:14): Interesting

Shanna Pearson (1:07:14): ... you know, you're not locked into anything. Like, people can leave whenever they want, but people stay because it works. And we're very action-oriented. We're not gonna, you know, talk about nice fluffy things. We're gonna make you do (laughs) the things that you have to do, and we're gonna do it with lots of love, and, and you'll get what you came for.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:07:31): Amazing.

Shanna Pearson (1:07:32): And, and the book has a- you know, over 100 tools. It's Invisible ADHD. Um, you can get the book wherever books are sold, and just it will, it will help. If you actually do the, the tactics and the techniques that are, that are listed in the book, it will help you.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:07:49): Interesting.

Shanna Pearson (1:07:49): And, and what everyone needs to know is that ADHD, I, I swear to you, every single person needs to know that ADHD is totally manageable. So never feel bad about yourself, ever, because you have a brain that works differently, just like, you know, Fiona, just like you have hair that's curly. (laughs) You know-

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:08:06): Yes

Shanna Pearson (1:08:06): ... there's nothing horrible going on here. Just, just we, there are ways to figure, to, to, to use what's out there and to do things differently, and you will go from point A to point B so much, so much easier and with a lot more light, lightness and fun and enjoyment than before.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:08:24): Amazing. Amazing. I can just feel how useful this conversation has, has been for the women that are listening. So thank you for dispensing your wisdom and sharing what you've learned in your own journey with the listeners of the show. Thank you.

Shanna Pearson (1:08:40): It's my pleasure. I'm, I'm, all I... I'm, I'm here to serve. That's it. I just want everyone to be helped, and however you find that help, I just pray that you do. And, um, and just know that there's a big, fat, beautiful light at the end of this tunnel.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:08:53): Oh, I love it.

Shanna Pearson (1:08:54): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:08:54): And I'm totally here for this time of inclusivity, where we just say, "Hey, Fiona's got curly hair. Shanna has straight hair."

Shanna Pearson (1:09:02): Mm.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:09:02): It doesn't mean a damn thing except we probably have a different kind of brush in our bathroom.

Shanna Pearson (1:09:06): That's it. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:09:07): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (1:09:07): That's really it. I love it. Thank you. I love it. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:09:10): Yes, you bet. It's a compassionate way to look at it. Okay, I have a final question I ask all my guests on the show, and I'd love to ask you now if I, if I may.

Shanna Pearson (1:09:19): You may.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:09:20): Oh, yay.

Shanna Pearson (1:09:21): Hit me. (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:09:22): Knowing what you know now, what would you tell your younger self?

Shanna Pearson (1:09:27): Oh my gosh. If I... Knowing what I know now, I would tell my younger self exactly what I just said, is that there's a big, fat, beautiful light at the end of this crazy tunnel. There really is. 'Cause I didn't, I really didn't know that, and I was very sad (laughs) for a lot, 'cause it never, it felt like it would never end.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:09:45): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:09:46): Yeah.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:09:46): Beautiful. Beautiful. I know this episode will touch a lot of lives. Thank you-

Shanna Pearson (1:09:51): You're welcome

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:09:51): ... Shanna Pearson, for coming on the show.

Shanna Pearson (1:09:55): You're welcome. Thank you, Fiona, and thank you for doing everything that you are doing. I love what you do. (laughs) And I'm grateful for what you do, and you are just extraordinary, and you have the best energy, so.

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:10:05): Thank you.

Shanna Pearson (1:10:06): (laughs)

Dr. Fiona Lovely (1:10:06): Thank you. I so appreciate the time. (outro music) The information and other content provided in this show or in any linked materials is not intended and should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional medical expertise or treatment. We are doctors, but we aren't your doctor. Seek your doctor's opinion. If you or any other person has a medical concern, you should consult with your healthcare provider or seek other professional medical treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something that you have heard in this podcast or in any linked materials. If you think you may have a medical emergency, call your doctor or emergency services immediately.

(1:11:02) The opinions and views expressed on this page and in this show have no relation to those of any academic, hospital, health practice, or other institution. Thank you.

Transcribed from the episode audio.