Undiagnosed ADHD: Why It’s Missed and How to Finally Get Clarity
Podcast · Love, Happiness and Success · Episode 470
Hosted by Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby · Guest: Shanna Pearson · · 55 min watch
On Love, Happiness and Success, psychologist and Growing Self founder Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby talks with Shanna Pearson, founder of Expert ADHD Coaching and author of Invisible ADHD. Both have ADHD, and they talk about growing up with it undiagnosed, why it is so often mistaken for anxiety or depression, and what a thorough assessment looks like.
In this episode
- Shanna’s story: leading kids on outdoor trips, being misdiagnosed with depression, and finally learning she has ADHD
- Growing up hearing “Why can’t you just…,” and what that does to self-esteem
- Inattentive, hyperactive and combined types, and the hyperactivity many women feel inside their heads
- How the GAD-7 overlaps with ADHD, and why a real assessment takes hours and looks at your history
- Writing out what’s screaming in your head, putting a box around each item, and asking which ones truly can’t wait, plus eye contact and listening to remember as ways to stay present with people
- Why Shanna doesn’t love calling ADHD a superpower, and her view on medication: “Pills don’t teach skills”
Episode links
- The episode page on growingself.com, an article version of the conversation with reflection questions and resources
- The video on YouTube
- Apple Podcasts and Spotify
Transcript
This transcript follows the video above. Times are minutes and seconds into it. The video ends with a few seconds of Growing Self’s end screen. The audio on Apple Podcasts runs longer, so its times differ.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (0:00): On the outside, you are capable, creative, high-achieving, but on the inside, you're totally overwhelmed, feel like you're drowning, and like you are a walking disaster. For many people, particularly women, this is the internal experience of having ADHD, and if you're relating to any of this, today's episode is just for you. I'm your host, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby. This is Love, Happiness, and Success, and with me today is none other than Shanna Pearson, ADHD coach to the stars. (laughing)
Shanna Pearson (0:37): (laughing)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (0:37): Important people come to her for ADHD advice, and now she's bringing it to you, and, Shanna, thank you for being here.
Shanna Pearson (0:44): I'm so happy to be here. This is gonna be fun. (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (0:47): We're gonna have a great time-
Shanna Pearson (0:49): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (0:49): ... because I have ADHD, and you have ADHD.
Shanna Pearson (0:53): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (0:53): So anything could happen.
Shanna Pearson (0:55): Who knows where this conversation will go? (laughing)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (0:57): Many tangents are possible, but we're gonna have fun because I think, personally, that that is an ADHD superpower.
Shanna Pearson (1:04): Mm, yeah. We- we're, we're definitely amazing at thinking outside the box. (laughing)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (1:09): (laughing) So, so Shanna, um, I... You are doing all kinds of amazing things with helping people manage ADHD, but I'm guessing that there is an origin story here, and I'm wondering-
Shanna Pearson (1:21): Mm, mm-hmm
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (1:21): ... if you could take us into that. You know, like, was, was there a time before you connected some dots and figured things out? And if so, what was that like for you before you really understood or had language to understand, like, what was going on?
Shanna Pearson (1:37): Nobody talked about ADHD when I was growing up. I grew up in the, you know, '70s and '80s, and so when, when, when, when we were small, it was a boy problem, right? And problem was the big word. When I was in my 20s, I had the job of a lifetime. So I was one of the, uh, one of the directors at, at this outdoor education center, and I used to basically take kids on hikes, and all day long, and overnights, and wilderness backpacking trips, and it was so fun. And at the beginning, when the schools first got there, the teachers, every week, 'cause it was a new group of kids, the teachers would always take us aside and tell us who the problem kids were.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (2:17): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (2:18): They're like, "Watch out for this kid. Watch out for that. He's gonna cause you problems. She might do this or that." Anyway, every single time this happened, number one, it was usually always boys, and number two, and this was kind of shocking for me, I don't know why, they would give us a brown paper bag with the kids' medication, the problem kids' medication. And something was going... Like, I was at the... I was in this job for quite a few years. I would always end up with these kids, and, and they would always end up in my group, and I think it was on purpose 'cause they kind of realized that I was good with these highly rambunctious children. But what I thought was that, "I don't understand what anyone thinks about these kids being problems. Like, this doesn't make any sense." These kids are so alive-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (3:03): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (3:03): ... and so full of life, and questions, and just nonstop-ness, and enthusiasm. And in the outdoor, you know, arena that I was in, it was like the, the, quote-unquote, "good kids" were, were terrible. They didn't want to participate. They didn't want to get dirty-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (3:19): (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (3:19): ... (chuckles) and they just wanted to, like, sit on the side, a lot of them. And my kids, which were the, quote-unquote, "difficult kids," were just off-the-charts outstanding, and these were the kids that other people labeled as problem kids, and I loved them. And my energy-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (3:32): Wow
Shanna Pearson (3:32): ... and their energy just matched perfectly, and this was before I knew anything about, you know, ADHD. And so that was kind of... It was, it was always something that I knew I understood how these kids worked. I understood what they needed. I got them. And then many years later, um, as my life was very quickly falling apart, I ended up being, um, (chuckles) sent to a psychiatrist to be diagnosed, and I think this is gonna be very familiar to, possibly to you and to a lot of women. But I was initially misdiagnosed with depression, which I would love to talk about more in depth later. But when I was finally correctly diagnosed with ADHD and understood what that meant, it felt like the s- like the world just opened up, and-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (4:20): Mm
Shanna Pearson (4:21): ... everything in my life, like all of the, all of the challenges, and all of the frustration, and all of the not getting it, and not being misunderstood, and just not matching with, with what was-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (4:33): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (4:33): ... you know, with the world, I guess-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (4:34): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (4:34): ... just always being a mismatch, everything made sense.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (4:39): Wow. That's amazing.
Shanna Pearson (4:40): And I was just grateful for... You know, I don't know what the... The diagnosis just gave me a lot of gratitude of, "Oh, my gosh."
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (4:47): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (4:47): "That's what's been going on. Now it all makes sense." It also includes, like, like, why I, why I understood all of those kids that were like (chuckles) you know, just, like, those nonstop, you know-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (4:56): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (4:56): ... always, always open to everything new, and interesting, and exciting. Like, it just, it all made sense.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:02): You know, I, I think when you are somebody with ADHD who is trying to conform to a world who really wants you to be different and is kinda mad at you for not being the way that, you know, other, other people tend to be and function, that really takes a toll.
Shanna Pearson (5:16): Oh, my gosh.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:16): And so I-
Shanna Pearson (5:16): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:16): ... I could see how that would be affirming to-
Shanna Pearson (5:19): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:19): ... to learn. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (5:20): And in, in such a big way. I feel like a lot of us who grew up, you know, having ADHD and not knowing it-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:28): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (5:28): ... it really takes a toll on us because most of us grew up underneath the, the words, and I, I talk about this in my book, of like, "Why can't you just..."
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:38): Right.
Shanna Pearson (5:38): "Why can't you just"-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:40): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (5:40): ... you know, from every, from your teachers, from your parents, from your friends, from your partners. Name it.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:45): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (5:45): Name it.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:46): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (5:46): Our employers, and, and, and, and it's awful because we don't know why we can't just.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:52): Right.
Shanna Pearson (5:52): You know?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:53): Right.
Shanna Pearson (5:53): It's like, if only somebody could please tell me (chuckles) that, that would be great.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (5:57): Well, let's, let's unpack this a little bit for our friends here listening to this because, Shanna, I mean, you and I have thought about this a lot. We have both done work, but, l- you know, like, let's assume that, that we have a friend here listening with us today who's, like, maybe just at the beginning of this journey or who, who hasn't-
Shanna Pearson (6:14): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (6:14): ... thought about their experience in these terms before. Like, I'm wondering if it would be okay with you if we could share a little bit around, like-... what, what that does to you, I mean, uh-
Shanna Pearson (6:27): Oh
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (6:27): ... I'm happy to talk about what life was like-
Shanna Pearson (6:29): (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (6:29): -for me in my 20s before this all came together. What, what-
Shanna Pearson (6:31): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (6:31): -was it like for you? I mean, I, I heard you say that at some point you arrived on the, the doorstep of, of, of a psychiatrist. (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (6:38): (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (6:38): Like, what the heck is going on? Like, somebody do something. But-
Shanna Pearson (6:41): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (6:42): ... what, what led to that?
Shanna Pearson (6:45): There's so much that goes on for a person who doesn't know what's, quote-unquote, "wrong with them."
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (6:50): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (6:51): You know? And, and it's not just about, you know, when you had a bad week in your 20s, and someone broke up with you out of the blue, and it's just... It's not like that. It's, it's your whole life.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (6:59): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (7:00): (laughs) It's your entire life since the day you were born, being misunderstood-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (7:05): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (7:06): ... not being able to fit in, feeling like you are legitimately living on a different frequency as (laughs) everyone around you. Like, they're here, you're there, or vice versa, and you're never- it's never a match. It's never a fit. Um, working your butt off to get Bs (laughs) in school-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (7:28): Mm
Shanna Pearson (7:28): ... which a lot of us, you know, a lo- I mean, some people do get As. A lot of us do. Um, but I would say the majority are just not, not able to learn specifically in the same way that the- that they teach you to study-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (7:40): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (7:40): ... you know, when you're, when you're younger, and it takes such a huge toll on your self-esteem.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (7:47): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (7:48): And it's impossible to shake it because when your formative years are, are, are so, like, so mismatched between you and the world, and between you and your caregivers, and between you and your best friends, and the people who care about you the most, and you're still not fitting in, and you're still not being understood, you honestly go through life believing that you never will be understood.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:11): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (8:11): You never will fit in-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:12): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (8:12): ... and there's something very different about you in a not-good way.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:17): Right. A-a-and-
Shanna Pearson (8:18): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:18): ... internalizing this, "What's wrong with me? Why can't I-"
Shanna Pearson (8:23): Yes.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:23): - "do what everybody wants me to do?"
Shanna Pearson (8:25): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:25): Like, what, what is it about me? And that internalization, I think, of shame and feeling different, and like somebody's always upset with you for something-
Shanna Pearson (8:33): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:33): ... and there's a disconnect and-
Shanna Pearson (8:35): Totally. You've always said the wrong thing.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:37): Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (8:37): You're always getting in trouble.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:39): Mm. Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (8:39): (laughs) I got in trouble a lot, even though I was a very quiet kid.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:42): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (8:42): I was not a rambunctious kid. I was silent. I actually... They call it, um, (laughs) when my, when my kids were, were really small, it was called selective mutism.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:52): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (8:52): There was a girl in my daughter's class that never spoke. I mean, that was me-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (8:56): Mm
Shanna Pearson (8:56): ... but they didn't have a label for it. I just never talked-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:00): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (9:00): ... and I did not know what was going on in, in class. I, I was zero problem because I had... I was not disruptive. I didn't say anything.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:08): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (9:08): And it's just, you know, it shows up differently for different people. But the fact is, is you are somewhere else.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:15): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (9:15): You are on, you know, a different frequency. You are, you are in a different place, usually somewhere much more engaging and exciting than what's happening-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:23): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (9:23): ... right in front of you. (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:24): Much more interesting.
Shanna Pearson (9:25): Right?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:25): Well, so, like, uh, let me ask you. So, so with ADHD, there are, are two types. Primarily, there's a mixed type, but one is that hyperactive-
Shanna Pearson (9:34): Mm
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:34): ... like crazy kid, like, you know, doing things.
Shanna Pearson (9:37): Can't sit still. (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:38): And the, the boy, right?
Shanna Pearson (9:39): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:39): But sometimes girls, but then there's also this, like, inattentive type-
Shanna Pearson (9:42): Yep
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:42): ... like, kind of dreamy, spacey, like, there but not there. Is that more how you identify? That's how I identified as a kid.
Shanna Pearson (9:49): Definitely.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:50): Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (9:50): I, I actually am combined.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:52): I see.
Shanna Pearson (9:52): I am combined-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:52): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (9:52): ... 'cause I'm very physical. Like, I need to be in my body a lot.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (9:56): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (9:56): And, and but when I was younger, I was less so, which is interesting, 'cause a lot of it's- a lot of us are opposite. We're more internal as women, and then as, um, as, as we're, we're smaller, we're more physical, and then as we grow older, we're-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (10:11): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (10:11): ... uh, just a lot more internal. But for me, it was m- I was very hyperactive in my mind.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (10:16): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (10:17): And I think that's the difference, 'cause it's not just like a quiet, slow, daydreaming.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (10:23): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (10:23): It is a very active, exciting, thrilling-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (10:27): Yes
Shanna Pearson (10:27): ... daydreaming. It is very active, and it... I would call it very hyperactive but very internal.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (10:32): Mm. Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (10:33): And so that's the difference, is that a lot of women are very, you know, just caught up in their mind.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (10:41): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (10:42): And it's constantly racing, and we're constantly worrying and creating, you know, scenarios that may or may not happen but probably will, because that would be much more interesting for our brain. (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (10:52): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (10:52): Right? And then we're trying to come up with solutions, and which obviously, you know, then can create another problem that we need to internally solve, and it's just nonstop, very exciting.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:02): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (11:02): Not-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:02): Yeah, but I hear you-
Shanna Pearson (11:03): Not very calm.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:04): No.
Shanna Pearson (11:05): It's very stressful.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:06): Well, yeah, and-
Shanna Pearson (11:07): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:07): ... and also I think that there, um, that, that can, I think, contribute to this, the sense of anxiety that y- y- you know-
Shanna Pearson (11:16): Oh, yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:16): ... you're describing around, like, especially I know for me, just feeling like I c- wasn't able to manage my life very well, like opening mail-
Shanna Pearson (11:27): Right
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:27): ... like, make-
Shanna Pearson (11:27): Right
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:27): ... you know, like, there's, there are... Especially like moving into adulthood-
Shanna Pearson (11:31): Uh-huh
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:31): ... and you talked about having kids. I know for me, when my, um, (lips smack) son was very young, and I was still, like, getting through graduate school-
Shanna Pearson (11:40): Mm
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:40): ... I just got to a certain place where many balls were being dropped, and that was, I mean, in my-
Shanna Pearson (11:45): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:46): ... early 30s, and I still didn't have a diagnosis at, at that point.
Shanna Pearson (11:49): Right.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:49): So I went for, like, a long time, but just getting to this point where you're like, "What is wrong?"
Shanna Pearson (11:55): Right. I-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:56): And then, and that's when you went on a journey.
Shanna Pearson (11:57): It's so hard when you're a mom.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (11:59): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (11:59): It really is. Like, that would've been horrible f- f- I can imagine that being really hard for you because you're responsible for this child, and you're dropping these balls, and you don't know why.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (12:08): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (12:08): And so beyond all of the other "why can't you just" that you probably heard growing up, you've got this incredible guilt 'cause this is your child.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (12:15): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (12:15): Like, I-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (12:16): I know.
Shanna Pearson (12:17): It's really, really hard. (laughs) So that's why it's important... I mean, that was, like, my whole- that was totally me also when with my kids. It, it still is in some ways.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (12:26): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (12:26): But it's just, you know, when you know what's going on-... it's a game-changer, because-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (12:33): Mm
Shanna Pearson (12:33): ... you know, then you can obviously learn how to keep the balls (laughs) like-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (12:37): Mm
Shanna Pearson (12:37): ... not from dropping. But if you don't know that there's even- you know, if you don't, if you don't know what's going on, it- it's pretty much impossible. Because-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (12:45): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (12:45): ... what works for one problem is not necessarily gonna work for ADHD.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (12:50): That is the truth. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (12:52): Which is re- which is a big deal.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (12:53): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (12:53): And it's important- it's really important for women to know this, because if you think something's not going well in your life, and you go to your doctor, okay?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:02): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (13:02): And you tell your doctor, like, "I'm really worried about my future. I'm dropping all these balls. I don't know, I can't keep it together-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:08): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (13:08): ... I don't know what the heck is wrong with me. I'm not feeling great about myself," they're gonna give you... And you know this, I'm positive you know this: they're gonna give you an assessment, right? And usually the assessment is for anxiety or depression.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:19): Hmm.
Shanna Pearson (13:20): Have you ever gotten one of those, or do you know-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:22): Um
Shanna Pearson (13:22): ... like, that, it's, like, a common-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:24): Oh, I, I'm, I'm certainly familiar with the screening instruments.
Shanna Pearson (13:27): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:27): I, I don't know that they gave that to me when I, when I rolled in, but- (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (13:31): Back in the day.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:31): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (13:31): They will now.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:33): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (13:33): So it's almost standard now. There was actually a, an article, um, uh, in, i- in a major paper, I'm not... I think it's, like, the Times or-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:41): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (13:41): ... where they talked about the overdiagnosis (laughs) of anxiety, 'cause now it's just, like-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:44): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (13:44): ... a regular condition, that we're worried about things, and now we have anxiety.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:47): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (13:47): But the problem is that for women who have ADHD, our symptoms, and you're gonna relate to this... Can I show you? Can I show you the-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:55): Oh, yeah.
Shanna Pearson (13:55): So they'll give you a clipboard.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (13:56): Uh-huh.
Shanna Pearson (13:56): And on the clipboard has a screening, and sometimes it'll come on an iPad, but still most doctors will give it to you on a clipboard. The questions-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:04): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (14:04): ... that they ask you for anxiety, it's called the GAD-7, are all symptoms for ADHD.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:11): Hmm.
Shanna Pearson (14:11): Feeling nervous, not being able to stop worrying, trouble relaxing. You know, being restless, it's hard to sit still. Becoming easily annoyed or irritable, like, we're so impatient, a lot of us are, like, completely, like, this is us. Feeling afraid that something bad might happen. This is anxiety, but this is also ADHD.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:31): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (14:31): So a woman-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:32): Oh, that's so interesting
Shanna Pearson (14:32): ... not being diagnosed with ADHD is gonna answer, like, on the high s-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:35): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (14:35): ... on the high scores, and she's gonna be given an anti-anxiety medication, right?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:39): Well, and it's-
Shanna Pearson (14:39): And it's the same with depression
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:40): ... so confusing, because at the same time, somebody who does actually have an anxiety disorder is going to have problems focusing-
Shanna Pearson (14:49): Yep
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:49): ... in remembering things-
Shanna Pearson (14:51): Exactly
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:52): ... in being present.
Shanna Pearson (14:53): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:53): And so an anxiety disorder will also mimic symptoms of ADHD, and so can depression.
Shanna Pearson (14:59): That's right.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:59): So-
Shanna Pearson (14:59): Oh, for sure
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (14:59): ... so it really requires, like, some nuance in order to figure this out.
Shanna Pearson (15:04): Yes.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (15:04): And so there are also some ways of being able to understand what this is. What do you recommend to people who-
Shanna Pearson (15:11): Hmm
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (15:11): ... really want to get clear around what this is? Like, you know, what, what is, is the, the tell-tale difference-
Shanna Pearson (15:17): 100%
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (15:18): ... between ADHD or anxiety?
Shanna Pearson (15:19): We have to, because they all overlap.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (15:21): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (15:21): ADHD, anxiety, and depression all overlap.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (15:24): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (15:24): And right now, we're not really being automatically given screening tools for ADHD. We're not.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (15:30): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (15:30): So if you have ADHD, you will be screened for anxiety or depression.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (15:35): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (15:36): And then when you answer all the questions, (chuckles) uh, it's gonna say that you have anxiety or depression. You're gonna be likely written a prescription for an-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (15:45): Mm
Shanna Pearson (15:45): ... anti-anxiety or antidepressant and-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (15:47): Mm
Shanna Pearson (15:47): ... and it's not gonna help your ADHD, which is gonna make you feel-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (15:50): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (15:50): ... possibly worse.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (15:52): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (15:52): So I think it's really important for people to understand that if you have ADHD, especially for women, this is a big deal.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:00): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (16:00): If you have ADHD, you've very likely been living in almost, I don't want to say, like, debilitating, but somewhat paralyzing (chuckles) overwhelm.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:10): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (16:11): And you're often in a state of overwhelm, and they don't ask you those questions on the-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:15): Mm
Shanna Pearson (16:15): ... on the anxiety or, you know-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:17): Mm
Shanna Pearson (16:17): ... depression scales, and they don't even ask it on the ADHD assessment, because it's mostly-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:22): Mm
Shanna Pearson (16:22): ... for men.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:24): Oh, (chuckles) interesting.
Shanna Pearson (16:24): So for women, if you ten- if you relate to feeling overwhelmed all the time-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:30): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (16:30): ... and you relate to that feeling having been your experience for the majority of your life-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:37): There you go
Shanna Pearson (16:37): ... not just now, (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:39): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (16:39): ... but, like, when you were in school and when you were a kid or, you know, in your 20s or whatever, but it's always been your experience-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:47): Mm
Shanna Pearson (16:47): ... that is something to look at.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:48): Yeah, definitely.
Shanna Pearson (16:49): That's something to look at.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:51): That's- uh, yes, because, you know, people don't just develop ADHD at some point in their lives.
Shanna Pearson (16:56): No.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:57): It exists-
Shanna Pearson (16:58): Forever
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (16:58): ... from childhood. There are these traits. And I will also just say that, um, just to provide people with information, there is a real difference between going to see a general practitioner physician versus sitting down with a psychologist. And so, like, when, when I was finally diagnosed, I spent several hours with a psychologist. We did a, um... You know, there's, there's a type of intelligence test that does working memory. Processing speed is a big giveaway, doing the detailed history. But even some, um, uh, digital, uh, activities-
Shanna Pearson (17:33): Yep
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (17:33): ... that can track, like, your memory and attention-
Shanna Pearson (17:37): And time track
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (17:37): ... ability to focus, and it is quite thorough.
Shanna Pearson (17:40): Yep.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (17:40): And it is also true that people who have ADHD can also have comorbid anxiety and sometimes depression because of what ADHD does to you.
Shanna Pearson (17:52): Absolutely.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (17:53): It makes you feel, like, scared, because you aren't managing things, and people are mad at you.
Shanna Pearson (17:57): Yep.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (17:57): And it makes you feel depressed because of that, like, "What is wrong with me," right?
Shanna Pearson (18:01): Well, that's the whole problem.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (18:03): And so it's-
Shanna Pearson (18:04): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (18:04): ... it really does require nuance, and I know that it can be difficult to connect with a psychologist in these moments, but if you have that ability, that could be a smart investment-
Shanna Pearson (18:16): I would highly recommend it
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (18:18): ... to get clarity.
Shanna Pearson (18:18): I want to highlight something you just said-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (18:19): Hmm
Shanna Pearson (18:19): ... 'cause I think it's important that everyone hears. It took a lot... It took a few hours.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (18:25): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (18:25): I don't want that- I don't want anyone to miss that.... my assessment also took a few hours.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (18:29): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (18:30): It actually took, it actually took- it w- it took place over two days.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (18:33): It should.
Shanna Pearson (18:33): It was like, it was like three hours and three hours. It was just like... And he wanted my report cards from when I was in kindergarten-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (18:40): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (18:40): ... all the way up through. Like, and we happened to have them, but he wanted my history.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (18:44): Yes.
Shanna Pearson (18:44): So if you're getting an assessment, and it's taking 20 minutes, that is not a thorough assessment.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (18:49): Mm-mm.
Shanna Pearson (18:49): It just isn't. So I think that's a really important point. Um, a lot of women with ADHD, because of what it's done to our self-esteem-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (18:57): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (18:58): ... and because of the fact that we are legitimately existing on a different level and frequency and understanding as everyone else in our lives, and because of our history of really not feeling understood by anyone, and, and our need for relationship-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (19:13): Right
Shanna Pearson (19:13): ... you know, we still need to feel close to people because we're, we're human, and we're women, and we're emotional. Because of all of that, we, we do... Like, in terms of the- we, we definitely show symptoms of depression.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (19:25): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (19:26): You, you can't not. You don't feel great about yourself. You feel disconnected. You feel alone. You feel like your life isn't working out, and you don't know why.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (19:33): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (19:34): And it's, it's, it's very difficult because you're smart.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (19:39): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (19:39): You know you're quick. You know you get it on a certain level, and, and, and you know you understand things that a lot of people don't understand, and yet you just can't figure out how to make it in this world.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (19:50): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (19:50): And so, of course, you're gonna be diagnosed with depression, and-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (19:54): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (19:54): ... and you may even be given medication for that, and it's not gonna help your ADHD.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (19:59): Right.
Shanna Pearson (19:59): Right?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (20:00): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (20:00): And so, and the management tools will help you on some level but certainly not on the deeper level if what you've actually, you know, what you're actually dealing with is ADHD.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (20:08): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (20:09): So.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (20:09): Okay.
Shanna Pearson (20:10): But I think it's... There's hope, right? Because if you do get correctly diagnosed, if you have ADHD, and then you know you have ADHD, I can promise you 100% (chuckles) that it, that it's manageable. It is manageable. This is not like an incurable anything.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (20:24): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (20:24): Like, you will always have ADHD, but you'll be able to manage the symptoms.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (20:28): Well, let's talk a little bit more about that. So step one of this conversation (chuckles) is to get properly diagnosed. Uh, there, there's nuance there, but then you have that conversation, and, and you walk out the door with, with that diagnosis. Now what? I mean, where would you recommend somebody even start figuring out how to manage themselves and their lives in a different way?
Shanna Pearson (20:54): I think one of the easiest places to start is (chuckles) there's so many places to start. (laughs) That's why... But the easiest is to start doing less-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (21:06): Mm
Shanna Pearson (21:06): ... at a time, and I feel like that is something which would require... You know, it's like why we do coaching. We don't just, you know, tell people, "Do this. Do this, do this, do this," and check it all off. It's like, well, you're like, "I can't do less. You have no idea what's going on in my life. I have 50,000 things I need to do today by 4:00 PM."
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (21:25): Right. Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (21:25): (chuckles) Right? So it's like, what are you trying to say? But the truth is, is by keeping yourself flooded-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (21:31): Mm
Shanna Pearson (21:31): ... in overwhelm, it is, it is such a sabotaging effect, and you will never get out. It's so- it's- it literally is like quicksand.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (21:40): Yeah. That's so hard, though, because I think the experience is that there are all of these ideas, and it's difficult to prioritize things, that that is literally one of the symptoms.
Shanna Pearson (21:51): It is.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (21:51): And so when you have people who are like, "But I have to," like, how do you help them just get through that, the mental obstacle of being able to put something down that feels like-
Shanna Pearson (22:03): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (22:04): ... everything's gonna fall apart if I do that?
Shanna Pearson (22:05): So I love lo- 'cause when everything is in our head-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (22:08): Mm
Shanna Pearson (22:08): ... as you know, we have a hard time compartmentalizing, right? It's everything all at once right now.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (22:14): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (22:15): And so that is how it is in our bri- in our brain.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (22:17): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (22:18): So by writing out, in pen, (chuckles) not on your phone, not on a computer-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (22:25): (exhales)
Shanna Pearson (22:25): ... but by writing it out with your hand with a pen what you have to do, and I'm not just saying make a to-do list.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (22:31): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (22:31): I'm saying, like, write out, like, the big things that are screaming in your brain. You will then be able to put boxes around them-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (22:38): Mm
Shanna Pearson (22:39): ... and see them as individual items, which is very important.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (22:43): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (22:44): And figure out which of these needs to get done yesterday. Like, which ones are actually urgent-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (22:50): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (22:50): ... and the most important in terms of priorities, and which one, if they never happen, am I going to actually die or end up in the ICU? (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (22:59): (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (23:00): Which it sounds extreme-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (23:02): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (23:02): ... but when you have ADHD-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (23:04): Oh, yeah
Shanna Pearson (23:04): ... that's how it feels.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (23:05): It feels that way.
Shanna Pearson (23:06): If this doesn't happen, I'm not-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (23:07): Right
Shanna Pearson (23:07): ... gonna be okay.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (23:08): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (23:09): And I, I really need people to see by, by doing these, uh, by writing things out, putting boxes around them-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (23:15): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (23:15): ... and seeing, like, if this isn't done, if this isn't done, will I be okay? Am I gonna end up in the hospital? Because I think something so extreme like that takes us out of our overflowing-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (23:26): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (23:26): ... nonstop catastrophizing-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (23:29): Mm
Shanna Pearson (23:29): ... mindset, and it, and it gives us a lot more objectivity, which is-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (23:33): Mm
Shanna Pearson (23:33): ... really important. And, and when you have that objectivity, it's at that point that it's easier to start prioritizing.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (23:41): Yeah. This is such good advice. And, and I think what people don't realize, people with ADHD do not realize this about normal people.
Shanna Pearson (23:52): (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (23:52): Normal people do not realize, uh, this about people with ADHD, is that people... Uh, I, I, I think that people who are, uh, not neuroty- wait, neurotypical people-
Shanna Pearson (24:03): Mm-hmm
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (24:03): ... are able to sift through things in their minds and prioritize things in their minds.
Shanna Pearson (24:10): Yes.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (24:10): And people with ADHD really struggle to do that, and so that's why this technique, externalizing, putting it down-... putting a box around it, and then making yourself sit there and actually think about what's most important is incredibly, um, helpful and really vital-
Shanna Pearson (24:29): It's vital
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (24:29): ... because until you do that, you're-
Shanna Pearson (24:31): You're swimming in it.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (24:32): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (24:33): And it's grab- it's h- it's literally taking over your life.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (24:36): Mm. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (24:37): And you can't sift through it because all of the 50,000 things are taking over your (chuckles) life all at the same time, and it's-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (24:43): Mm
Shanna Pearson (24:43): ... it's, it's painful.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (24:44): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (24:44): So I don't want anyone to think, "Well, then nothing's important because nothing's gonna actually put me in a hospital," but the point is to cut the emotional pain-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (24:54): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (24:54): ... around the, the grip that these things all have on you at the same time.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (24:59): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (24:59): And so by doing that, you cut- it's basically cutting the cord of that pain and the intensity of it-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:04): Mm
Shanna Pearson (25:04): ... and allowing you to then prioritize.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:07): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (25:08): And seeing-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:09): Such goodness
Shanna Pearson (25:09): ... each item for what it is. Like, I do need to do that, but I can do it tomorrow, or I do need to do that, and it does need to get done today. Okay, what else do I need to do? You know-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:18): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (25:18): ... and just, it just takes that-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:19): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (25:19): ... it takes the, the... I don't know what- how to say it. I don't wanna say angst, but it does take the pain away.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:24): (inhales) It's frenetic.
Shanna Pearson (25:25): (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:25): You know, I've tried to explain to my husband as, like, the old game musical chairs, and then the music stops, and there's one seat, and, like, all the kids try to, like-
Shanna Pearson (25:35): Right
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:35): ... jump on it, right? Is that it feels like I have one open chair and 75 thoughts all trying... Like, I only have one thing that I am able to do in a present moment, and then all this stuff it feels like-
Shanna Pearson (25:45): Right
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:45): ... is crowding into that same spot, and you can't do it all.
Shanna Pearson (25:48): You can't.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:48): And it's crazy making.
Shanna Pearson (25:48): And, and when that happens-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:50): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (25:50): ... you end up doing nothing.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:51): Oh, yeah.
Shanna Pearson (25:52): Right? (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:52): Okay, that paralysis.
Shanna Pearson (25:53): You end up doing nothing.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (25:55): Let's talk about that.
Shanna Pearson (25:55): You're just, like, sitting there, like, gripping your chair, staring at, I don't know what, Netflix? (chuckles) Just, like, doing nothing-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:01): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (26:01): ... 'cause you can't.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:02): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (26:02): You can't figure out what to do.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:04): It's overwhelming. Yeah, and there's this-
Shanna Pearson (26:06): That's, that's the overwhelm that we live with
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:07): ... paralysis.
Shanna Pearson (26:07): And that's the overwhelm-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:08): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (26:09): ... that you have- that you and 90-something percent of all women with ADHD-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:13): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (26:13): ... have lived with their whole life.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:15): Yeah. Now, just out of curiosity, do you feel like it is a different experience for men?
Shanna Pearson (26:23): I do. (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:24): Tell me.
Shanna Pearson (26:24): I do-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:24): No, 'cause-
Shanna Pearson (26:24): ... but I don't think it's, like, better or worse-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:26): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (26:26): ... because we have 51... It's so bizarre that it's 51. 51% of the clients in my com- in my coaching company are men.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:34): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (26:34): It's almost half and half but not quite. (chuckles) So, so they- and they come here, and these are men who are, on the outside, many of them are quite successful-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:45): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (26:45): ... in the, in the term of what, you know, society thinks of success, and they're in a lot of pain.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (26:50): Hmm.
Shanna Pearson (26:51): Because they can't... They- it's almost like they can't focus on anything el- else outside of their work.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (27:02): The hyperfocus thing-
Shanna Pearson (27:04): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (27:04): ... is what they're doing.
Shanna Pearson (27:04): And they just stay glued into it because-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (27:07): Mm
Shanna Pearson (27:07): ... they're... I don't know if it's their- if it's, like, how men are raised in terms of, you know, you have to provide. I feel like we're so past that at this stage, and yet-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (27:16): Huh
Shanna Pearson (27:16): ... and yet there are so many 40, 50, 60-year-olds who are... You know, that's their mission.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (27:22): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (27:23): And, and it's really because they also have a hard time compartmentalizing because they have ADHD. It is so hard for them to be able to remember anything that has to do with their relationship, birthdays-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (27:35): Mm, mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (27:35): ... anniversaries, um, remembering to take the trash out, (chuckles) remembering to get something for their kid, remembering to show up for a game. It is so hard because-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (27:44): Mm
Shanna Pearson (27:45): ... those things are not screaming-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (27:48): Right
Shanna Pearson (27:48): ... in their brain as, like, a survival tool, even though it, it, it is. (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (27:52): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (27:53): Even though it, like, it's like their whole family is dependent on-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (27:56): Mm
Shanna Pearson (27:56): ... on a- on their dad being present, or, uh, what a woman is dependent on her, you know, or like, her spouse being present. It's really hard for them.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (28:06): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (28:06): And I feel like they're trying so hard, and they're not succeeding, and they feel like they're not succeeding in the most important areas of their life, which is-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (28:15): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (28:15): ... which is awful. It's awful.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (28:18): Right.
Shanna Pearson (28:18): And heartbreaking, in a way. And so I love... Like, in our coaching program, we always have spouses and family members-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (28:26): Mm
Shanna Pearson (28:26): ... join, um, if it's okay with the client, just so they understand (chuckles) what's going on for this person-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (28:34): Right
Shanna Pearson (28:34): ... just so they understand how hard they're trying.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (28:36): Right.
Shanna Pearson (28:37): And how-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (28:37): I think that that's so important.
Shanna Pearson (28:39): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (28:39): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (28:39): It's, it's really hard for them, and so... And for women, I, I feel like for women it's very different because, uh, first of all, a lot of us still don't know that we have ADHD.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (28:50): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (28:50): And, and for the men, a lot of them do know. (chuckles) So there's a big difference-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (28:55): Mm
Shanna Pearson (28:55): ... is the women just don't know what's going on. Um, it also is, in terms of our executive functioning, we're trying to do so many things because women in general try to do so many different things. It's never been just about our career, ever. It's who we are in our relationships, who we are as friends, you know, who we are as parents. It's like we're the mom. (chuckles) Word, whatever, you know, gender p- women w- like, a person wants to identify with, if you're a mom, you're a mom, right? Like, that's a big deal, and then there's all that guilt, like what we were talking about-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (29:31): Mm
Shanna Pearson (29:31): ... before when you were talking about your son. And so there's so many different categories for us that we have to be superstars in.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (29:38): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (29:38): It's... That's difficult. You know, that's difficult to navigate, and so what do you do? And then as a woman, you're also faced with hormonal shifts that men are not faced with.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (29:49): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (29:49): And that's a game changer because estrogen... (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (29:54): Yeah. Oh, that-
Shanna Pearson (29:55): Like, don't even get me started on this
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (29:56): ... it really affects cognition. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (29:58): It does, and it affects your dopamine levels.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (29:59): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (30:00): you're going through perimenopause or menopause, and your estrogen levels are dropping, your dopamine levels are dropping, and you already have lower levels of dopamine in your brain. So even if you're a person- a woman with ADHD who's been able to, you know, figure systems out or, you know, just get by, when you're going through perimenopause or menopause and your dopamine levels are even lower-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (30:24): Mm
Shanna Pearson (30:25): ... every system that you've created that's worked for you up until then effectively stops working.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (30:30): Wow.
Shanna Pearson (30:31): And that's, that's, that's really hard, which is why-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (30:33): It is
Shanna Pearson (30:33): ... like, so many women now are being diagnosed later-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (30:36): Mm
Shanna Pearson (30:36): ... like, 50s and 60s when they're going through-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (30:38): Mm
Shanna Pearson (30:38): ... these hormonal shifts because it's like, it's literally like when, like, everything just, like, exploded-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (30:45): Totally
Shanna Pearson (30:45): ... in their, in their life.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (30:45): Well, and then, you know, so many women, too, um, s- start struggling to sleep, and that has such an impact on-
Shanna Pearson (30:53): It's
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (30:53): ... the way that our brains work, too. So it's like a-
Shanna Pearson (30:55): Right
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (30:55): ... convergence of things.
Shanna Pearson (30:57): It's true.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (30:57): Well, let's, let's go deeper into to some of that, but before, before we veer way too far, um, I'm also just thinking about the friend, Shanna, who might be listening to this right now-
Shanna Pearson (31:08): Mm-hmm
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (31:08): ... who may not herself have ADHD, but who is partnered with, with perhaps a man who does, who's showing up in that, like, hyper-focused, obsessive, like, can't-turn-it-off kind of way. Are there any recommendations that you would have for somebody who's stuck in that space? Like, try this first. The way that you talked about for people who are in that, like, overwhelm thing, just write the things down. Is there something that tends to help-
Shanna Pearson (31:37): Okay, this is-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (31:37): ... knock people out of the obsession?
Shanna Pearson (31:38): This is gonna sound super simplistic, but it is... It is game-changing.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (31:44): I can't wait to hear it. (laughing)
Shanna Pearson (31:47): When you have a, when you have a person, and I don't just want to say... I, I, I want to go away from the man thing because women-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (31:53): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (31:53): ... do the exact same thing. Um, especially-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (31:55): I, I can show up that way, honestly.
Shanna Pearson (31:57): Right.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (31:57): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (31:57): Me, too.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (31:58): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (31:58): Me, too, and like, it's like you're sitting across the table from somebody, and their eyes are just everywhere else except for on you.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (32:05): Uh-huh. (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (32:05): And they're just not there, and they're not present, and we're like that with our kids, too, right? Where we're l- looking at our phone, and-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (32:11): It's awful
Shanna Pearson (32:11): ... you think you're looking at your phone for five seconds, and it's really not five seconds, right? And you're... It's, it's awful. Um, I'm a big believer in eye contact.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (32:19): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (32:20): And I'm a big believer in everything physical, honestly. I think, like, when we do things with our physical body, our mind follows.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (32:27): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (32:28): And so if you're w- in a relationship with a man who's just not present (chuckles) and focusing on a billion things except for you, a really great... And he loves you, and so he wants things to work out, you know, and he doesn't know how, a great place to start is just eye contact.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (32:48): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (32:48): And have him, like, just have that be a thing, an exercise. It's, you know, five seconds of eye contact.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (32:56): Mm-hmm. Uh, that is so great. Like, "I'm taking your phone away. Look in my eyes."
Shanna Pearson (33:02): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:02): Like, make it a thing.
Shanna Pearson (33:03): Make it a thing.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:03): I have to do that with my husband sometimes. He, he tries to talk to me, and I'm, like, bouncing around, and I am not processing anything he's saying, and-
Shanna Pearson (33:10): Correct
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:10): ... I have to stop-
Shanna Pearson (33:11): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:11): ... and, like, look at him and, like, "Okay, I'm listening." And it is a-
Shanna Pearson (33:14): Right
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:14): ... a physical listening because without that-
Shanna Pearson (33:16): That's right
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:17): ... I'm like, I'm not there.
Shanna Pearson (33:18): You're not there.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:18): So-
Shanna Pearson (33:19): You're thinking about something else.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:20): Yeah, totally.
Shanna Pearson (33:20): And your voice is very loud, and it's very entertaining, and it's really smart, and it's very engaging, and what about with your kids, right?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:27): (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (33:27): 'Cause, like, what you're thinking about, and they're trying to talk to you, and you want to be-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:31): Oh, my
Shanna Pearson (33:31): ... paying attention. (chuckles) You want to be, but you, but you're-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:35): Right
Shanna Pearson (33:35): ... but you've got, like, a lot of things you're thinking about. Eye contact. Force yourself. Just make... Just tell yourself, like, like, "Just look at their eyes-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:43): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (33:43): ... without being creepy about it." (laughing)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:46): (laughing) I'm, like, aware that I'm-
Shanna Pearson (33:47): Don't look in their eyes for too long
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:47): ... looking right in your eyes right now, Shanna.
Shanna Pearson (33:49): Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:49): (laughing)
Shanna Pearson (33:49): It's like, "Okay, all right, that's enough." (laughing)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:51): Blink-
Shanna Pearson (33:52): Back away
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:52): ... once in a while. Just, just blink.
Shanna Pearson (33:54): (laughing)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:54): Okay.
Shanna Pearson (33:54): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:54): Oh, my gosh, that's hilarious.
Shanna Pearson (33:55): But just, like, really focus on the person's eyes. Try to remember, if you're in-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (33:58): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (33:58): ... a meeting, if you're trying to talk to somebody that is talking about something super boring, just try to, like, catch the color of their eyes.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:05): Nice.
Shanna Pearson (34:05): You know, make it a game. Like, try to figure something else out about them, even if it's, like, not... And, and, and also, like, try to figure out, like, what they're talking about as if you're gonna be tested on it.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:15): Oh, pop quiz.
Shanna Pearson (34:16): Yes.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:17): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (34:17): That's a real- that's really important.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:19): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (34:19): Like, just, like, like, listen to remember, and that makes it a little bit more engaging. Even if what they're talking about is the most boring thing on the planet, and you're not interested in it, listen to remember.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:31): That's good advice.
Shanna Pearson (34:33): Right.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:33): That really is. I have to do that with my kid. I have a... We have two kids. One of them has-
Shanna Pearson (34:38): How old are they?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:40): ... ADHD!
Shanna Pearson (34:40): There we go.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:40): I have a 17-year-old. Our love child is 17.
Shanna Pearson (34:44): Mm.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:44): And we also have a seven-year-old.
Shanna Pearson (34:46): Oh, wow!
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:46): It's crazy, like, 10 years apart. I know.
Shanna Pearson (34:48): Great. (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:48): It's, it's wild. But the love child has blazing ADHD because... And also, it's, it's runs in families.
Shanna Pearson (34:55): It does.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (34:56): Like, my mom had it, and I actually need to do that with him. I will be saying something, and he, he's like, "Mm-hmm, mm-hmm."
Shanna Pearson (35:04): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (35:04): And I'm like, "What did you just hear me say?" Like, not, not in a mean way, but just like-
Shanna Pearson (35:07): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (35:08): ... "What, what did you take in?" And he's like, "Wait, what?" You know?
Shanna Pearson (35:11): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (35:11): Because-
Shanna Pearson (35:12): Sorry, can you repeat that? (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (35:12): ... he's needing to, like, listen to understand.
Shanna Pearson (35:15): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (35:15): And, you know, it's a thing at school.
Shanna Pearson (35:17): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (35:17): So, so many, so many good points, and I bet that your book is chock-full of all these tips, The Invisible ADHD.
Shanna Pearson (35:27): I literally took our coaching manual, and-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (35:29): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (35:29): ... I, I distilled it to, like, the w- the, the tips and techniques that we use on our clients that have-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (35:34): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (35:35): ... legitimately been proven to work.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (35:38): Yes.
Shanna Pearson (35:39): Year after year, you know, through worldwide pandemics and through, (chuckles) you know, God knows what, like, crazy, like, political situations, when everyone's super distracted, this stuff works. And I th- I, I put over 100 tools into my book-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (35:52): Wow
Shanna Pearson (35:52): ... because I honestly, I'm not a writer, okay? And I, and I wasn't... I'm not like, I'm not like, "Oh, I want to write, like, lots of books, so let me just focus on one tool at a time," (chuckles) like, or five or, you know... Some people- a lot of people do that. A lot of books are based on one idea. But I put so many tools into this book because I really just want everyone-... as many people as possible to have access to this information, because so many people don't.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (36:16): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (36:16): And a lot of people cannot, for a million different reasons, participate in our coaching program. And so-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (36:22): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (36:22): ... here, (chuckles) take these tools. Please use them.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (36:26): (exhales)
Shanna Pearson (36:26): Do not just read about them.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (36:27): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (36:28): Implement at least one. Just do one. Pick your favorite, and your life will absolutely become easier and better.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (36:35): (exhales)
Shanna Pearson (36:36): (chuckles) And so-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (36:36): I can't wait-
Shanna Pearson (36:37): You know
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (36:37): ... to read this book.
Shanna Pearson (36:38): Oh, good.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (36:38): I might make my kid read this book.
Shanna Pearson (36:39): There you go. Yes!
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (36:40): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (36:41): Yes.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (36:41): Okay.
Shanna Pearson (36:42): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (36:42): Well, so and I, I don't know if you speak about this in your book or in your coaching program, but I- but I hope you could share a little bit of your insight onto this other variable. Um, do you believe or have you experienced with your coaching clients... Like, y- you, you work with people who are operating at high levels.
Shanna Pearson (37:03): Yep.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (37:03): And is there a part of you that suspects that their, uh, thinking differences are part of what has allowed them to be as successful as they are? Like, are there superpowers that come along with that or abilities that they have access to that maybe not everybody does?
Shanna Pearson (37:21): Okay, so here we go. (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (37:22): Okay.
Shanna Pearson (37:23): This is, this is my honest truth. Number one, I don't love the term superpower-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (37:29): (gasps) Okay
Shanna Pearson (37:30): ... being attributed to anyone who's neurodivergent.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (37:33): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (37:33): And the reason is really... The reason is this: having ADHD is very difficult. It just is.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (37:44): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (37:45): Um, as much as we wanna, like, minimize it and lighten it up and just so, you know, everyone thinks that they have ADHD because they're feeling really stressed out and super chaotic, no, that's not ADHD. When you have ADHD, and you're overwhelmed literally all the time, and you're-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (37:58): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (37:58): ... constantly not able to, like, cycle through, like, the very basics of what you need to be doing, it's difficult, it's painful, and honestly, it sucks.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (38:10): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (38:10): And so when we attribute the word superpower to ADHD, a lot of-- and I've learned this through my clients as well as feeling it myself, a lot of people feel like we're not even living up to-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (38:20): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (38:21): ... the superpower that we're supposed to have. (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (38:23): (laughs) I can't even do that right.
Shanna Pearson (38:24): I can't even have a superpower.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (38:25): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (38:26): Like, my life is falling apart, and I'm supposed to have this superpower?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (38:29): Right.
Shanna Pearson (38:29): (chuckles) You know? Like-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (38:30): That's... You know what?
Shanna Pearson (38:31): Oh, my gosh.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (38:31): That's a good point.
Shanna Pearson (38:32): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (38:32): And, and that it, it is minimizing and maybe i- invalidating the struggle and make, uh, you know, just another reason for people to feel like they are not-
Shanna Pearson (38:40): Like they're not... If they're broken-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (38:42): They're not doing it right. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (38:42): They're not doing it right. I don't have a superpower.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (38:45): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (38:45): I really don't have a superpower. I've learned to manage a lot of my most challenging ADHD symptoms.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (38:52): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (38:52): That's it. That's all I've done. And our clients have learned to manage a lot of their most challenging ADHD symptoms. Now, I believe that our, uh, some, like, esp- like, our clients are superstars-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (39:04): Mm
Shanna Pearson (39:04): ... because of what they do in the world, and where they're at, and their intentions, and their passion. And the people who I know who have ADHD, I just love them so much (chuckles) for who they are, but it's not the ADHD that makes them, you know-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (39:20): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (39:20): ... that gives them a superpower. It's, it's, it's, it's them. It's, it's their soul. It's what they have. It's their potential, whether they've realized it or not.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (39:29): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (39:29): It's what they have inside of them that makes them flippin' awesome-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (39:34): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (39:34): ... you know?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (39:35): Well, and I think they-
Shanna Pearson (39:36): But and the, and the-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (39:36): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (39:36): ... super successful people that you were talking about before who are neurodivergent, I do think that when you have a brain that doesn't compartmentalize very well, and you're a- and everything is kind of, like, everywhere all at once, it does allow you to be, um, extremely creative because there are no walls.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (39:54): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (39:54): There's no walls. We need the walls, but we don't have the walls, which allows us to be able to think in-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:00): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (40:00): ... every possible direction.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:03): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (40:04): Right? And I think that that does allow us to create things that are extraordinary when we're able to-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:11): Mm
Shanna Pearson (40:11): ... implement the steps we need to take to actually create them, right? (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:14): That's the hard part.
Shanna Pearson (40:16): That's it.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:16): That's right.
Shanna Pearson (40:16): We have lots of great ideas. (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:18): Great ideas.
Shanna Pearson (40:19): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:19): It's, it's the execution-
Shanna Pearson (40:20): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:21): ... that, you know?
Shanna Pearson (40:21): But I, I think-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:22): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (40:22): ... that a lot of people who are neurodivergent are, you know, who became very famous, um, because like, like, that... It's great that they, that they've created what they were able to create. But there's also a lot of people who are not neurodivergent who've created phenomenal things al- as well.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:37): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (40:37): And so I just think, I think it's a person thing versus-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:40): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (40:40): ... a neurodivergence thing.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:42): That's awesome, and I can just tell from the way that you're talking, Shanna, like you, you have so much respect and empathy for your clients.
Shanna Pearson (40:50): Oh.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (40:50): And that you really, like, love them and care about them so much, and I, I can acknowledge that, uh, uh, somebody who is able to achieve great things in the world, um-
Shanna Pearson (41:03): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:03): ... (ts) uh, you know, was, was fighting an uphill battle, uh, i- in some ways to get there.
Shanna Pearson (41:08): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:08): And not that they, you know, yes, have great ideas and, and, uh, can perhaps make associations between things, but, um, (lips smack) that it, it's still difficult to manage and-
Shanna Pearson (41:19): It's difficult
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:19): ... make things happen.
Shanna Pearson (41:20): It's not easy.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:21): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (41:21): Yeah, it's not.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:22): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (41:22): And it's- and I feel like the popularity of ADHD as, as... I think it's amazing because it's really gotten rid of-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:30): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (41:30): ... a lot of the stigma-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:31): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (41:31): ... which is wonderful, but it's also minimized the-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:35): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (41:35): ... the challenge of living with ADHD-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:37): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (41:37): ... um, like, having lived with ADHD your whole life. And so I, I think it's just- I think it's important for people who have ADHD to know that this is, this is not easy.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:48): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (41:49): It's not.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:49): Which is-
Shanna Pearson (41:50): So don't worry if you're having a hard time.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:51): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (41:52): That's, that's completely normal.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:54): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (41:54): You should be having a hard time, and now let's figure out how to manage it so that you're not having a hard time anymore.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (41:59): Yeah. That, that, that's g- yes.
Shanna Pearson (42:02): That's it. (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (42:02): That, that's, that's the experience. Just out of curiosity, though, how, how do you manage some of that? Like, I, not that I look at social media that much, 'cause I can't really handle it, but, you know-
Shanna Pearson (42:12): (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (42:12): ... I, I think that there is th- this thing in the zeitgeist where there's a lot of self-diagnosis happening that often does come from people putting information out on social media.
Shanna Pearson (42:22): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (42:22): Um, and I think that, so people start throwing around ADHD or anxious attachment style, you know, like, all kinds of things that are... They, they mean something when they are, uh, real deal in a clinical sense.
Shanna Pearson (42:39): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (42:39): And-... You talk about being concerned that it, it minimizes the lived experience of people who are really struggling with these things day to day.
Shanna Pearson (42:50): Day to day.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (42:51): W- how do you manage that when you encounter it online? Does it-
Shanna Pearson (42:56): Oh, well-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (42:57): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (42:57): ... first of all, you're gonna find this maybe hard to believe, but I'm not on social media. I'm one of, I kind of really-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:04): Well, see, I wouldn't even know that, 'cause I'm not either.
Shanna Pearson (43:07): Me neither. Right.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:08): So-
Shanna Pearson (43:08): So I don't encounter anything online.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:10): Okay.
Shanna Pearson (43:11): And, um, and I love that.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:14): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (43:14): So that is a very thick wall that I've-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:16): Okay
Shanna Pearson (43:16): ... built for myself.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:18): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (43:18): Is... And it might change now that I have this book coming out. (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:22): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (43:22): I'm like, "Oh, no." (laughs) So am I gonna have to take down the wall and, and... 'Cause that could be very distracting. Um, but I know that in our, in our, in our company-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:32): Culture. Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (43:32): ... in our company-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:34): Oh, mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (43:34): ... there are so many people who come in thinking that they have all of these things that they heard about on TikTok or, or-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:42): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (43:42): ... you know, usually it's TikTok, actually, which is fine. I always wanna know, how long has this been happening for you?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:48): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (43:48): How is it affecting you?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:50): Right.
Shanna Pearson (43:51): How is it affecting you? You wanna talk about, you know, anxious attachment style? Let's talk about who you're attached to.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (43:58): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (43:58): And I wanna get right into it. I wanna get right into the specifics and help them with that.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:03): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (44:03): I don't care about the label-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:04): Mm
Shanna Pearson (44:04): ... that they wanna give it based on today's label.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:07): Yeah. No, that's great.
Shanna Pearson (44:07): 'Cause every label... Labels change all the time. When I was growing up, Asperger's was a thing.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:13): Yes.
Shanna Pearson (44:14): Now it's high-functioning autism.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:15): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (44:16): So who cares what the label is? Because by the time you and I- like, in 20 years from now, all the labels are gonna be different.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:22): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (44:23): So just tell me what the problem is that you're struggling with-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:25): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (44:26): ... and let's fix that.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:27): Nice. What, what does it mean to you? How is it showing up in your life, and-
Shanna Pearson (44:31): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:31): ... what would you wanna be different?
Shanna Pearson (44:31): Whatever you wanna call it, yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:33): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (44:33): Call it whatever you want to call it (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:35): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (44:35): 'Cause it's always gonna change.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:37): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (44:38): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:38): Well, you, you have so many solutions and opportunities for people to make improvements in their lives when ADHD is the real thing. Tell us a little bit more about your work. So I know that you have the book-
Shanna Pearson (44:52): Mm
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:52): ... but really, the, the book, it sounds like, is a, is a manual that comes- (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (44:57): Mm-hmm
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:57): ... from this coaching program.
Shanna Pearson (44:59): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (44:59): So tell us about it. Is this something that you developed, or over the years?
Shanna Pearson (45:02): Oh, my gosh-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (45:03): Tell us about it
Shanna Pearson (45:03): ... the coaching company, um-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (45:05): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (45:05): ... is kind of an accident. (laughs) Like, I didn't mean to. I've never taken a business course in my life.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (45:11): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (45:11): I, I don't know how to run a company, but that's what we're- that's what I'm doing, and it really just happened... I, I think, like, a lo- I think this happens for a lot of people, where you just-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (45:20): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (45:20): ... you, you do what you know, right?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (45:22): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (45:22): And so I was co- I, I figured out that I had ADHD, thank goodness. (laughs) And then I- and then it took me a little while, but I figured out the tools that worked just for me-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (45:32): Mm
Shanna Pearson (45:32): ... just for me. Like, I knew this would work, like, especially, like, being in my body and writing a lot of things down and really focusing on one thing at a time and breaking things down into teeny, tiny, little steps, like, all of these, like, little things. And I started b- you know, I just- I was just getting better, and people, my friends, who, as you probably know, are a lot like ourselves, like, we tend to attract people who are like us. (laughs) Um, so my friends wanted, you know, to learn what I was doing, and then that started... Then it st- I started getting clients, and then, you know, then that was it. I was full, and then I had to start hiring another coach and teaching them absolutely everything I knew-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (46:11): Mm
Shanna Pearson (46:11): ... so that we could keep helping people.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (46:13): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (46:13): 'Cause whatever I was doing was helping. But I couldn't just stop at the people I could help, because that's such a, a little small amount of people.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (46:19): It's so limited, yeah.
Shanna Pearson (46:21): It's so limited, and so- and, and here's the other thing: I didn't wanna make it into a product.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (46:27): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (46:27): Because if you make something into a product, that could technically help millions and millions of people. Except what I was doing was so individualized.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (46:35): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (46:35): It was impossible.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (46:36): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (46:36): I mean, you understand this 'cause you're a therapist. Like, you... I couldn't bottle it. I... And I still can't.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (46:42): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (46:42): I still can't. But, I mean, the book is my first attempt (laughs) -
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (46:45): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (46:45): ... you know? But otherwise, it's so individualized, what we do, that your coaching would be so different than my coaching-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (46:52): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (46:52): ... as a client, if we were both clients, right?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (46:55): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (46:55): And so I had to train a coach, and then we're just training other coaches, and it's just, it was very organic.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (47:01): Right.
Shanna Pearson (47:01): And, and it just... And then doctors started referring patients to us all the time, and then their-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (47:07): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (47:07): ... patients went back to them, and their... You know, it's working, so they referred more patients to us, and then a lot of... This is so funny. This- it was funny to me. S- some of the doctors that were our referral partners started becoming clients. (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (47:19): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (47:19): Which is so awesome.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (47:20): Like, "Can I get some of that?"
Shanna Pearson (47:22): Yeah. No, that-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (47:23): That's amazing
Shanna Pearson (47:23): ... it was the coolest thing ever.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (47:24): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (47:24): The first time that happened, I'll never forget. I'm like, "Are you serious?" 'Cause they wanted to talk to me, like, privately, and, "Listen, (laughs) I just wanna know if I can do this." And then-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (47:33): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (47:33): But then it just started becoming, like... It just grew and grew and grew.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (47:37): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (47:38): And so all I want to do... And it's a very bad business model, because it's so individualized, right? You can't- you can scale it to a point, but you can't scale it like a business-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (47:47): I agree
Shanna Pearson (47:47): ... 'cause it's just not. Like, I- and I don't want to.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (47:52): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (47:52): I don't want to. I don't wanna water it down. I want people to come here and, honest-to-goodness, just change how they do things-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (48:01): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (48:02): ... so that their life works beautifully. That's what I want, and then just, like, give them a big virtual hug and, like, send them on their beautiful way and have them, like, affect their families in great ways. Like, just... And, and I, and I can't figure out how to do that as, like, a product, so that's it. I just wanna keep-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (48:18): I-
Shanna Pearson (48:18): I just wanna keep helping people-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (48:19): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (48:20): ... one-on-one. (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (48:21): Perfect. I mean, and it's just so beautiful, like, your mission and the caring that goes into it. Because I, I understand how it could be tempting to try to manualize these things, and everybody is so different.
Shanna Pearson (48:33): Yep.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (48:34): And can I-
Shanna Pearson (48:34): Mm.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (48:35): So one thing did pop into my head when you were talking about doctors a- and those referrals.
Shanna Pearson (48:41): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (48:41): Do you have a stance on medication in conjunction-
Shanna Pearson (48:45): Oh
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (48:45): ... with coaching, or-
Shanna Pearson (48:46): Totally.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (48:47): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (48:47): Oh, yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (48:48): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (48:48): Um, I think medication is great-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (48:51): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (48:51): ... when given in the right dose. (laughs) And the right medication and the right amount is-... awesome in conjunction with coaching, because, and this is a line that you're gonna- oh, I don't know if any listeners have ever heard me in any other forum before, but my line is this: medication helps you focus. It does not help you focus on the right things, period. (chuckles) So you could take your medication and be super focused on organizing your kitchen cupboards for six hours straight, no problem whatsoever, and get absolutely nothing else done that day.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (49:27): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (49:28): And so it puts- medication lit- like, especially the stimulant medication-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (49:33): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (49:33): ... it literally puts blinders on you. And so, and you just stay focused on whatever you happen to be looking at-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (49:39): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (49:39): ... even if you have, like, three important things that you need to do today. So I think coaching... That's why I say, "Pills don't teach skills," right? 'Cause the med-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (49:48): That's a great saying, pills don't teach skills.
Shanna Pearson (49:50): They don't.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (49:50): I love that.
Shanna Pearson (49:51): But the, the pills are still fine. Like-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (49:53): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (49:53): ... I have nothing against the medication, but they do not teach you the skills.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (49:56): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (49:57): And so then what do you do if you can't take the medication, or if there's a shortage where you live, which is totally the case for ADHD medication, or if you're pregnant and you can't take medication?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:07): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (50:07): You need the skills, and the skills-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:09): Totally
Shanna Pearson (50:09): ... the skills will last your entire life.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:12): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (50:12): Like, they don't expire. They don't go bad. They don't, they don't go out of production. They're just with you forever. (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:17): And they're not gonna stop your heart.
Shanna Pearson (50:18): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:18): And but also, like, I mean, if, if you have this, like, u- overfocusing, obsessive iteration of ADHD, taking medication might make that worse.
Shanna Pearson (50:28): It, it can.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:29): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (50:29): It definitely-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:29): Like, amplify it.
Shanna Pearson (50:30): It, it can.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:31): So-
Shanna Pearson (50:31): And it does for some people.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:32): Yeah. Mm.
Shanna Pearson (50:33): Um, a lot of... One thing I've learned over time is that a lot of people are, are initially given, um, a dose that's higher than what they need.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:41): Hmm, interesting.
Shanna Pearson (50:42): And that's why people feel like zombies.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:44): I see.
Shanna Pearson (50:45): So you hear that a lot, right? Like, "I took this medication, and I felt like such a zombie." But the truth is, is that if you cut that dose in half, most likely you won't feel like a zombie, and you'll just be able to focus. And then you have to learn about, you know, what to focus on, how to prioritize, all of that good stuff. (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (50:59): Oh. (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (50:59): How to move forward in your life.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:01): Oh, but there's so much to learn, Shanna.
Shanna Pearson (51:03): Yes.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:04): And, you know, you, you have so much wisdom to share. So, so obviously, the book, which is coming out right around the time we're released, Invisible ADHD.
Shanna Pearson (51:14): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:14): And now, um, it's called Invisible because it's not always obvious with women-
Shanna Pearson (51:18): It's not obvious.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:19): Yeah?
Shanna Pearson (51:19): Number one, ADHD for women-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:22): Mm
Shanna Pearson (51:22): ... because we tend to be on the quieter, less obvious side of it-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:25): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (51:25): ... we are invisible, but also we feel invisible. (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:28): Right.
Shanna Pearson (51:28): The ADHD is invisible, and we feel invisible and very, you know, like I was saying before, misunderstood-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:34): Mm
Shanna Pearson (51:34): ... by everyone. So there's a couple-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:36): Right
Shanna Pearson (51:36): ... of reasons for that title.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:39): Well, that's gonna be widely available here in a second.
Shanna Pearson (51:42): Mm.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:42): And then how would people learn more about you and your coaching program-
Shanna Pearson (51:47): Oh
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:47): ... and maybe get involved with that? Is there a best way to contact you?
Shanna Pearson (51:50): Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:50): Is it... You're not on social media, so-
Shanna Pearson (51:52): I'm not on social media.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (51:53): Send a passenger pigeon.
Shanna Pearson (51:54): Um, I mean, there might be a way to find me on social media eventually, but, uh, for now, it's very easy, adhdcoaching.com.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:02): Okay, fair enough.
Shanna Pearson (52:03): That's my company.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:04): Okay.
Shanna Pearson (52:04): That's where you'll find us. That's where you will get the best care in the world. We do not let you go. We are, like, on you.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:11): (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (52:11): We're all over. It's like it's virtual, but we're, like, on you. (chuckles) Like, "I'm gonna be checking in with you, and I'm gonna be making sure you're doing what you said. I'm gonna require proof that you're doing what you say-"
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:21): (gasps)
Shanna Pearson (52:21): ... which is so cool.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:22): That is so good. No, I love it.
Shanna Pearson (52:25): It is.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:25): That's, like, next level because the, the follow-through-
Shanna Pearson (52:27): It is next level
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:27): ... thing is really important.
Shanna Pearson (52:29): It's number one-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:30): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (52:30): ... because you can say anything you wanna say during a session.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:33): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (52:33): And you can promise me to the hills that you're gonna do exactly what you say you're gonna do.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:37): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (52:37): And then you're gonna leave, and you're gonna get a phone call and get completely distracted and go home, and, like, that session is just gone.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:43): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (52:43): Gone.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:44): Uh-huh.
Shanna Pearson (52:44): Boom. So we are on you.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:47): Amazing.
Shanna Pearson (52:47): And, and I love that we do that because it's... There's a tremendous amount of love in what we do, and I really-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (52:54): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (52:54): I th- it comes... It's, like, top down, right? Like, I love (chuckles) our clients, I love my coaches, and, and, and everyone feels it. And all the clients will tell you, like, they know, like, they know that we're there for them 100%, and it's... There's nothing automated. That's why it's a bad business model. Don't ever do this. (chuckles) But there's nothing automated about our program.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:12): But I know-
Shanna Pearson (53:13): It's just, it's just love
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:13): ... exactly what you're talking about.
Shanna Pearson (53:15): It's true, right?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:16): That's... Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (53:16): Yeah, you get it.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:17): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (53:17): So, you know, imagine if there were, like, 50 of you, and you had all of these clients. Like, how are you... But, but you would- but it has to be individualized.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:24): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (53:24): It has to-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:25): Mm
Shanna Pearson (53:25): ... 'cause everyone's got their own story, and everyone's got their own pain points, and their own goals, and, and their own obstacles, right?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:33): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (53:33): And, and it's different for everyone, and it's, it's beautiful to be able to cut through all of it and just get people, like, break them free.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:39): Oh, so you do have clients.
Shanna Pearson (53:41): And you do that also.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:42): (inhales) Yes, I do, and-
Shanna Pearson (53:43): Yes, you do
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:44): ... I, I, I can, I can attest to the fact it's a terrible business. (chuckles) Don't, don't do it.
Shanna Pearson (53:48): Right? I know. (laughs)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:50): (laughs)
Shanna Pearson (53:50): But yet, are you h- like, you love it, right? You love this.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:53): It's such a joy-
Shanna Pearson (53:55): Yeah
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:55): ... to be able to work with people, especially couples.
Shanna Pearson (53:57): Right.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:58): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (53:58): That's so good.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (53:59): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (53:59): Oh, we didn't even talk-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (54:00): That's what I-
Shanna Pearson (54:00): ... about relationships. That'll be on part two.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (54:02): Oh, well, y- you'll have to come back. (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (54:03): There we go. (chuckles)
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (54:03): And we will have more fun.
Shanna Pearson (54:05): Mm.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (54:05): But thank you so much just for sharing, uh, you know, your perspective and your advice, but also, also the love-
Shanna Pearson (54:12): Mm
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (54:12): ... with, with our people here today.
Shanna Pearson (54:13): Mm.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (54:13): And it sounds like you're up to really great things, and I appreciate you.
Shanna Pearson (54:17): Aw, thanks, Lisa. I appreciate you, too. I really do. I love what you're doing.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (54:21): Thank you.
Shanna Pearson (54:22): Thank you.
Transcribed from the episode audio.