Do You Have ADHD? Learn the Signs, How to Get Diagnosed, and Tools to Thrive

On episode 379 of Her Starring Role, Michele Lamoureux talks with Shanna Pearson, founder of Expert ADHD Coaching and author of Invisible ADHD, about how ADHD shows up in adult women, how Shanna was finally diagnosed, and how to get an accurate diagnosis yourself. The show was called The Good Life with Michele Lamoureux when this episode aired.

Shanna also shares the everyday tools she uses herself and with clients, from quick physical resets to keeping a notepad for stray thoughts.

In this episode

• What happened to ADD, the inattentive and combined types of ADHD, and why hyperactivity in women tends to be mental and emotional
• Shanna’s story: a silent, daydreaming first grader, a misdiagnosis of depression as an adult, and a long assessment with an ADHD specialist
• Why the depression and anxiety questionnaires used in doctors’ offices catch so many people with ADHD, and why to see a psychologist or psychiatrist who specializes in ADHD
• Overwhelm as the most common sign, procrastination as not knowing where to start, and why lower estrogen in perimenopause and menopause makes ADHD harder to manage
• Medication at the right dose, and physical state changes: a breath mint followed by a freezing cold glass of water, one song while standing, slapping doors in different rooms
• A “parking lot” notepad, ADHD as an emotional challenge more than a productivity one, social media, and time limits on kids’ screen time

Episode links

• The episode page on thegoodlifecoach.com, with show notes and topic times
• Apple Podcasts and Spotify, where the show is now listed as Her Starring Role with Michele Lamoureux
• The video on YouTube, a shorter edit of the same conversation

Transcript

This transcript follows the audio episode above. Times are minutes and seconds into it. It opens with Michele’s note about the show’s coming name change and ends with the show’s disclaimer. The YouTube video is a shorter edit, so its times differ.

Michele Lamoureux (0:00): (upbeat music) Hey, my friends, I've got some exciting news. After nearly seven years of hosting this podcast, it's time for a fresh, new chapter. Starting very soon, we are going through a rebrand, including a name change. Don't worry, it's gonna be the same amazing world-class experts that you love to learn from. We're just leveling up with a new name and an even bigger vision for the show and this community. So here's the important part: in order to keep getting new episodes, please make sure you're subscribed to the podcast right now on your podcast player, currently The Good Life with Michele Lamoureux. That way, when the name changes, you won't miss any new episodes coming your way. You can also join my newsletter community to get every new episode delivered straight to your inbox.

(0:53) Thank you so much for being a part of this community. I'm so grateful for each and every one of you. Now, let's get into today's episode. Here we go. (upbeat music) Hi, my friends. Welcome back to another episode of the podcast. I'm your host, Michele Lamoureux, and today on the show we are talking about ADHD and how to determine whether you as an adult have ADHD. Joining us today is Shanna Pearson, who is the founder and president of Expert ADHD Coaching, the largest ADHD coaching program of its kind in the world. With over twenty-six years of experience, Shanna has designed and led focus and goal achievement programs for executives worldwide, including at Google, Tesla, Pfizer, Ford, Yale School of Medicine, Disney, Meta, Apple, SpaceX, and many more organizations.

(1:51) She's also helped tens of thousands of adults transform their lives through a results-driven, brain-based approach. In addition to degrees in psychology and education, Shanna's credentials include a lifetime spent mastering her own ADHD. Shanna is the author of a new book called Invisible ADHD. It's written for women, and I think you're gonna love this conversation. I'm considering a part two for another episode that s- exclusively takes your questions. This was an hour-long interview that I recorded over a couple months ago, and I just felt like there was more to cover on this topic. So if you have questions, please write us at hello@thegoodlifecoach.com with your questions, and I will ask them of Shanna on a, a subsequent interview with her. Before we dive into today's conversation, reminder that all of the show notes are on your podcast player with an invitation to join my newsletter community, as well as my YouTube channel, and I'd love to have you be a part of both.

(3:00) Sometimes it's fun to watch the interviews, and if you're someone who likes to do that, the channel is there, and I'd love for you to join us over on YouTube as well. So on that note, my friends, let's dive right into today's conversation. Here we go. (upbeat music) Welcome to the show, Shanna. I'm so happy to have you on.

Shanna Pearson (3:21): Thank you. It's great to be here.

Michele Lamoureux (3:23): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (3:23): I'm really excited.

Michele Lamoureux (3:24): I can't believe I've not covered ADHD on the show. We were talking before I hit record that it's a topic I've wanted to cover, but here we are. You've written a book on it, and so it's the perfect time.

Shanna Pearson (3:35): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (3:35): Um, I think what would be helpful, though, is just a definition so we all understand what it is. We've heard ADD, ADHD. Does the definition encompass both?

Shanna Pearson (3:45): Mm.

Michele Lamoureux (3:45): Like, just tell us what it... What is ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (3:49): No, that's an amazing question because, um, in our generation, yours and mine, it used to... There were- there was ADD and ADHD. Um, and so ADD just meant, you know, you have a hard time paying attention, um, but there wasn't the hyperactivity component, and now, um, they've made it more confusing (chuckles) by calling it ADHD-

Michele Lamoureux (4:12): Yes

Shanna Pearson (4:13): ... and putting a bun- you know, putting ADHD-I is what we used to know as ADD-

Michele Lamoureux (4:18): Oh

Shanna Pearson (4:18): ... which is I for inattentive.

Michele Lamoureux (4:20): So it's ADHD-I?

Shanna Pearson (4:22): Slash I.

Michele Lamoureux (4:23): Slash I.

Shanna Pearson (4:24): Then there's ADHD slash C, which is the combination of inattentive and hyperactivity.

Michele Lamoureux (4:31): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (4:31): And there's, you know, the just ADHD, which is just regular old, you know, the hyperactive component, and it's, um, it became more confusing in my opinion, but it doesn't... The fact is, is that a lot of us, um, attribute hyperactivity to physical manifestation, and one of the things that I think is super important to, um, for women especially, to understand is hyperactivity for us tends to be more mental and emotional.

Michele Lamoureux (5:03): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (5:03): So, yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (5:03): Not physical. 'Cause I think a lot of us have that image of the hyperactive, like, boy in school-

Shanna Pearson (5:09): A kid

Michele Lamoureux (5:10): ... who can't sit down. Yeah, a kid, not a grown woman, and yes.

Shanna Pearson (5:13): Right.

Michele Lamoureux (5:13): It's not how it-

Shanna Pearson (5:15): That's not at all how it manifests. (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (5:16): Not at all.

Shanna Pearson (5:16): It's not at all how it is, not for girls or women-

Michele Lamoureux (5:19): Right

Shanna Pearson (5:19): ... so in general. You know, you have girls and women who are hyperactive physically.

Michele Lamoureux (5:24): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (5:24): Um, absolutely. I hap- I happen to be one of those people, (chuckles) but it's definitely not the majority.

Michele Lamoureux (5:30): Okay. Okay.

Shanna Pearson (5:31): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (5:32): I'm gonna read something. This was sent sort of as a description from your, you know, to d- to, like, take us into what the book is about, 'cause I think it's gonna be helpful just to hear this. Um, and it says: "An estimated 50 to 75% of women struggling with ADHD don't even know that they have it.... and are fighting an uphill battle trying to navigate a world their brains are simply not wired for. On the surface, people may label them as unreliable, flaky, intense, or dramatic, but inwardly, these women are plagued by severe overwhelm, emotional chaos, chron- chronic stress, catastrophic thinking, and feeling misunderstood by everyone. Women who seek help are often mis- misdiagnosed with anxiety or depression, which can lead to a lifetime of living with the wrong diagnosis and medications, while the true culprit goes un- undetected or incorrectly treated.

(6:26) This can leave them feeling hopeless and perpetuate cycles of anxiety and depression. And to make matters worse, just when they start to take small steps forward in their ADHD management, hormonal shifts, like PMS and menopause, can throw everything into a lurch and send them right back to square one. So I think it would be really interesting for people to hear what your journey was with it, because one of the things that I didn't know that I learned from reading your book is that you're born with ADHD. It's not something you develop. 'Cause I think a lot of us think, "Oh, yeah, I think I have it now." So take us- use you, if it's okay, use yourself as an example of, um, how it manifested for you and how ultimately you ended up getting the diagnosis in your 30s.

Shanna Pearson (7:11): I have had ADHD since the day I was born, (chuckles) and all of us who have ADHD have it for our entire life. We're born, we're born with a brain wired like this. Um, for a lot of girls and women, it... And me, (chuckles) 'cause you wanted me to talk about myself, it looks exactly the opposite of what we think it should look like. So when I was, um- when I- actually, my book starts with a story (chuckles) about when I was, when I was in first grade. Um, when I was in first grade, I was a silent, shy, just super quiet, invisible kid. I was- I actually was with- I think they would, um... These days, I think they call it selective mutism, where-

Michele Lamoureux (8:01): Mm

Shanna Pearson (8:01): ... like, the children- my daughter, who's now 14, had a girl in her class that just never spoke, and but she spoke at home, right? And so I learn- I'm like, I was looking at that little girl once on a- at a school event, and I'm like, "God, that was like, that was me-

Michele Lamoureux (8:13): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (8:13): ... at that age." Um, I didn't disrupt anybody. I was silent, (chuckles) and nobody knew that there was any problem, except for the fact that, you know, later on in, you know, in the year, they realized that I hadn't done any homework, and I wasn't doing anything in class that I was supposed to be doing, 'cause I was really just, like, thinking. I was just constantly thinking. I was internalizing everything. Um, and that tends to be the- that tends to be the situation for a lot of, a lot of women and girls, is that everything is internal, and we overthink everything. Um, and we're, like, constantly ruminating (chuckles) on, you know, anything that's stimulating. So if it's something upsetting or something you're questioning or something you're indecisive about, um, you're just- it's just churning and churning and never ever stops because you have no place to put it. Um, so that's part of what ADHD is for women, is just this nonstop-ness of, of mental activity that's, in a way, um, quite disruptive.

Michele Lamoureux (9:16): Yeah. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (9:18): And so-

Michele Lamoureux (9:19): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (9:19): ... so for me, I mean, I, I was diagnosed because of, um, a, a, I was involved in a fairly severe situation when, you know, my life was just not working. Um, but a lot of people's lives don't work, (chuckles) and so it wasn't unusual. But then something unusually terrible happened, and, um, and I, I, I lucked out because I was talking to a friend who was visiting his parents, um, in my city, and when I was at his house, his dad was- overheard me talking about what had happened, and his dad was a psychiatrist. So that's how I lucked out. His dad was like, "Shanna, have you ever thought or been to, you know, that you might have ADHD?" And, and at that time, I'm like, "That's, like, a kid thing."

Michele Lamoureux (10:02): Right!

Shanna Pearson (10:03): (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (10:03): Oh, interesting. Right-

Shanna Pearson (10:05): Kids have ADHD.

Michele Lamoureux (10:05): At this point, you're 32. You're like, "Wow, I'm a 30-"

Shanna Pearson (10:07): Yeah, I'm in my 30, I'm like, "What?" (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (10:08): Yeah, no-

Shanna Pearson (10:09): I was like, "Yeah"

Michele Lamoureux (10:09): ... I'm not seven. Why would you ask me that?

Shanna Pearson (10:11): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (10:11): Interesting. This is important. This is important.

Shanna Pearson (10:14): I had no... I'm like, "That's what something that kids deal with," you know? And usually they're the ones who are eating way too many Froot Loops and, (chuckles) you know, like, whatever.

Michele Lamoureux (10:21): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (10:21): I had no idea. So, um, so he, he took- he took me to his practice and had me work with one of his colleagues, and that actually didn't work out, 'cause she diagnosed me with depression.

Michele Lamoureux (10:34): Oh, did she put you on an antidepressant?

Shanna Pearson (10:36): And she put me on an antidepressant, which was awful. But, um, I can talk about that a lot more, because a lot of women are misdiagnosed with depression and, um, generalized anxiety disorder, so, and really, they have ADHD. And that's a pretty big, um... It, it, the, it's quite different, the way that you would manage depression versus ADHD. So if you have ADHD and you're misdiagnosed with depression, it's gonna be very hard for you to, to get better and to, to get your life in order because, you know, you're, you're treating the wrong thing.

Michele Lamoureux (11:11): Interesting.

Shanna Pearson (11:12): So-

Michele Lamoureux (11:12): It seems, even from the doctors who've come on, that, like, when women are going through perimenopausal symptoms, they're often diagnosed with depression or anxiety and given medicine for that and not actually for-

Shanna Pearson (11:23): For what they're-

Michele Lamoureux (11:24): Yeah (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (11:24): ... their menopause or their medi-

Michele Lamoureux (11:26): For their hormones going away.

Shanna Pearson (11:27): That's right!

Michele Lamoureux (11:28): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (11:28): That's right.

Michele Lamoureux (11:28): Yeah, it's sort of interesting that it's a similar thing, where it's sort of the default for women who are coming with some issue where they're not feeling thems- like, or what it's like to feel themselves. Like, you were feeling yourself, but people didn't understand it. You're mis... A lot of people with ADHD feel misunderstood, from what I understand.

Shanna Pearson (11:44): We always feel misunderstood because our, our brains are legitimately, um, we, we function differently.

Michele Lamoureux (11:50): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (11:51): And we're never quite, uh-... I don't want this to sound horrible, but we're never quite in sync (chuckles) with, with, with what's going on around us, with the people around us, unless, usually unless they happen to have ADHD as well. You'll hear a lot of, you know, people with ADHD tend to have, you know, close friends who also have ADHD, and like, "We're on the same frequency."

Michele Lamoureux (12:10): That's beautiful, actually.

Shanna Pearson (12:10): On the same frequency.

Michele Lamoureux (12:11): Yeah, I like that.

Shanna Pearson (12:12): You know?

Michele Lamoureux (12:12): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (12:12): But otherwise, we're on a different frequency.

Michele Lamoureux (12:15): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (12:15): And so if you're growing up on a different frequency than everyone around you, and it's also a lot harder for you to go from point A to point B, and it's also, um, the fact that you're constantly, like, living in this overwhelm, and you really don't know what to do at any one time, and, you know, you're constantly, like, playing... It's like a ping pong game nonstop in your brain.

Michele Lamoureux (12:42): And?

Shanna Pearson (12:43): And this is the kicker, is that it's hard for you to regulate your emotions, because that's, like, almost number one. It's like an emotional regulation challenge, is, like, one of the biggest symptoms of ADHD. If you have a hard time regulating your emotions, you're naturally gonna have a hard time in your relationships.

Michele Lamoureux (13:01): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (13:02): You just will. You'll have a hard time in your family relationships, in your romantic relationships, with your friends. Like, you just have a hard time in relationships, and then you tend to feel alone and misunderstood, and you're not doing what you want to be doing in your life because, you know, you have a hard time going from point A to point B. All of these things (chuckles) manifest in, you know, some- somebody who's not gonna feel good about themselves-

Michele Lamoureux (13:24): Mm

Shanna Pearson (13:24): ... and not gonna feel good about their life and always thinking that there's something very, very-

Michele Lamoureux (13:29): Mm

Shanna Pearson (13:29): ... wrong with them. And, and it's a horrible way to be because you don't know what's actually wrong with you or what's going on with you.

Michele Lamoureux (13:35): Right.

Shanna Pearson (13:35): It's not even wrong. It's just this is, you know, a person living with- in a, in a, on a certain frequency in a world that's living on a different frequency, and, and it's... You need to know what's going on so that you can manage it and be, you know, be in tune with, with everything going on around you.

Michele Lamoureux (13:54): Yeah. I think what's wild-

Shanna Pearson (13:56): It's crazy

Michele Lamoureux (13:56): ... great is that because of people like you, who are bringing awareness to an issue, it allows people then to start having curiosity and to ask questions.

Shanna Pearson (14:07): Totally.

Michele Lamoureux (14:07): So they may not know that it's not just kids, right? There's a lot of women now our age, um, age group, who are trying to figure it out. I just had a friend who said, "My son has it. I think I actually, I might, too." So- (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (14:23): (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (14:23): So, so how did you finally get diagnosed then? Did the friend's dad end up doing the test or someone else in the family? (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (14:29): No, so, I- well, she diagnosed me with depression. I was like, "What?" Because-

Michele Lamoureux (14:33): You weren't depressed.

Shanna Pearson (14:35): I wasn't, and I... And I, unfortunately, I had a, a close friend of mine that was depressed at the time, and I was not in that state.

Michele Lamoureux (14:46): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (14:46): 'Cause she was in a really awful state.

Michele Lamoureux (14:48): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (14:48): And, um, it wasn't, that wasn't where I was. Um, and so I just didn't resonate with it. Um, I did take the antidepressant for a few days, and it, it made me feel very sad (chuckles) which is really-

Michele Lamoureux (15:00): (chuckles) Okay. Yeah-

Shanna Pearson (15:01): I was like, "Oh, my God!"

Michele Lamoureux (15:01): ... 'cause it wasn't just, wasn't what you needed. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (15:04): It was really bizarre. I woke up, like, wanting to cry.

Michele Lamoureux (15:07): Oh.

Shanna Pearson (15:07): It was, it was almost like it, it gave me depression-

Michele Lamoureux (15:09): Oh

Shanna Pearson (15:09): ... which I don't know if that's a thing.

Michele Lamoureux (15:12): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (15:12): Um, so I stopped taking that almost immediately, and then, um, I told, I told my friend's dad, and he then took me to an ADHD specialist. He didn't take me.

Michele Lamoureux (15:24): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (15:24): He called and made the appointment-

Michele Lamoureux (15:26): I understand

Shanna Pearson (15:26): ... and got me there.

Michele Lamoureux (15:27): Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (15:27): And this guy spent, uh, it was literally a two-part appointment, um, and each part was, like, three hours. It was very long. Um, I had to s- I had to bring in all of my report cards. I had to bring in, um... I had to write out, like, a synopsis of all of my, like, the last five jobs that I had. I had to talk, you know, talk about all of my relationships, and he just pieced everything together and was like, "This is..." Basically, he was like, "This is a no-brainer. You are an extreme, extreme case of ADHD." Every single thing I said was ADHD, like, to the, to the extreme.

Michele Lamoureux (16:03): Interesting.

Shanna Pearson (16:03): So-

Michele Lamoureux (16:04): How did that make you-

Shanna Pearson (16:04): Yeah

Michele Lamoureux (16:04): ... feel once you got the diagnosis?

Shanna Pearson (16:06): It's, it's funny 'cause when he said it, while he was explaining it, it all made sense. It all made sense.

Michele Lamoureux (16:13): It's validating.

Shanna Pearson (16:14): It was.

Michele Lamoureux (16:14): It's comforting maybe in some way.

Shanna Pearson (16:16): It was, because at that point in my life, like, I didn't know why my life was such a mess. Um, but it turns out that every single thing I had been doing for, you know, pretty much since high school-

Michele Lamoureux (16:31): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (16:31): ... till then was a need, like, a, a need, (chuckles) a strong need for stimulus.

Michele Lamoureux (16:39): Yeah, that was an interesting... I want to get to that in a minute because I did, I did notice that was sort of like a theme in the, the book.

Shanna Pearson (16:46): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (16:46): Um, and also, again, by writing this book and having this conversation, it helps people understand, like, what it might look like. So what are some clues that you might h- be living with ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (16:59): Ooh!

Michele Lamoureux (16:59): It's... You're, you, you're not the diagnosis, right? So how do you like to s- how do you frame it?

Shanna Pearson (17:04): I frame it, um... First of all, I w- I would love to go back and just make sure that people know that there's, like, a difference between depression, anxiety, and ADHD.

Michele Lamoureux (17:12): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (17:12): Because if there's anyone, um, who's been diagnosed with depression or anxiety, it might be ADHD, and e- especially if you've been diagnosed with depression and anxiety, and whatever you're doing with your doctor isn't helping you-

Michele Lamoureux (17:27): Mm

Shanna Pearson (17:27): ... in the way you want it to help you, it might al- it might be ADHD, and it's just good for people to be aware of that. I, I printed out, um, the questionnaires that they give you at the doctor's office. So it's, it's wild. So this is a depression questionnaire, and I can... I'll, I'll just... But I just want to point it out that, like, it literally says, you know, "Number two, feeling down." (chuckles) Number three, trouble falling or staying asleep.

Michele Lamoureux (17:50): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (17:51): This is for depression, and you have to rate it on a score, like several days, more than half days, nearly every day. If you have ADHD-

Michele Lamoureux (18:00): Yes

Shanna Pearson (18:00): ... you will likely have a hard time falling asleep or staying asleep. If you have ADHD, especially if you don't know it, and your life isn't working, (chuckles) you will feel down. If you have ADHD, you know, you may very well have a poor appetite or find yourself overeating because, you know, especially-

Michele Lamoureux (18:18): Stimulus

Shanna Pearson (18:19): ... it's, it's con- you're constantly, you know-

Michele Lamoureux (18:21): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (18:21): ... if you're always ruminating, ruminating, ruminating-

Michele Lamoureux (18:23): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (18:23): ... you're gonna- you're not gonna necessarily remember to eat all the time, and a lot of us will eat all the time (chuckles) -

Michele Lamoureux (18:30): Yeah, yeah

Shanna Pearson (18:30): ... to try to, like, quell, you know, the-

Michele Lamoureux (18:32): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (18:32): ... the nonstop thing, you know, nonstop thoughts in their head. Um, feeling bad about yourself, trouble concentrating on things. This is a scale for depression.

Michele Lamoureux (18:43): Interesting.

Shanna Pearson (18:44): Okay, there's no one with ADHD that doesn't have this (chuckles) right?

Michele Lamoureux (18:47): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (18:47): There's, um, moving or speaking so slowly so that other people have noticed, or the opposite, being so fidgety or restless, (chuckles) that you... Like, who with ADHD doesn't- wouldn't put a three there?

Michele Lamoureux (19:00): It's really interesting.

Shanna Pearson (19:01): And so people who have ADHD are literally gonna score-

Michele Lamoureux (19:05): High

Shanna Pearson (19:05): ... if you get the, they're gonna score on the moderately severe depression scale of, of, of, of that. And they don't have depression, they have ADHD, and it's the exact same thing for the generalized, the GAD-7, which is a generalized anxiety disorder scaling that you'll get at your doctor's office. All of these things, all of these things would be answered at a, at, like, (chuckles) a three for somebody who has ADHD.

Michele Lamoureux (19:28): Oh, that's interesting.

Shanna Pearson (19:28): Maybe not a three, but you will... There's nobody with ADHD that doesn't have these. You know, trouble relaxing, being restless, you know, irritability, feeling afraid something bad might happen. That's one of the chapters in my book. It's just, it's just, if your doctor isn't giving you an ADHD questionnaire, you will fall into the anxiety or depression.

Michele Lamoureux (19:49): Most likely, you're gonna fall into that.

Shanna Pearson (19:51): You will.

Michele Lamoureux (19:51): You will.

Shanna Pearson (19:51): And, yeah. So I think it's really huge that people understand that, because you, you might, you might have anxiety, and you might have depression, but you also might have ADHD, and that's treated quite differently.

Michele Lamoureux (20:05): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (20:05): Um, and it's fixable. It is treatable, so you don't have to worry. You just have to know what you're treating. That's all.

Michele Lamoureux (20:11): Right. Okay.

Shanna Pearson (20:12): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (20:13): So, all right, so that was actually really important because-

Shanna Pearson (20:17): (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (20:17): ... I, so let me jump ahead, and then we'll go back.

Shanna Pearson (20:19): Mm-hmm.

Michele Lamoureux (20:19): So who can accurately diagnose it? Because now I understand maybe why that woman thought... She was a psychiatrist. She's like, okay, maybe she gave you that form, and she's like, "Oh, you're-

Shanna Pearson (20:27): She gave me the same form-

Michele Lamoureux (20:29): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (20:29): ... like a few days ago. (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (20:29): So that makes sense. So you... (chuckles) Right, it's not... So I would imagine, hopefully, these days, it's different now. Like, there's more information, education, awareness, or I don't know. Who does somebody go to? Let's say they-

Shanna Pearson (20:41): Honestly, Michele, it depends on where you live.

Michele Lamoureux (20:43): Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (20:44): It depends on where you live because to this day, we have clients calling- we have people calling us, not necessarily clients, saying, like, "Um, I just got diagnosed with depression, but I don't feel depressed."

Michele Lamoureux (20:57): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (20:57): "Um, and so I started looking into it." And so they are- because they are a curious person, and they're not just taking what their doctor says, you know-

Michele Lamoureux (21:05): Yes

Shanna Pearson (21:05): ... straight up, they're, they're still looking into it, and then they, they think, "Oh, maybe this is ADHD." So they'll, they'll call us, but a lot of people wouldn't do that. They'll be like, "My doctor says this is what it is. Here's my prescription," you know, which is, which is fine.

Michele Lamoureux (21:21): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (21:21): It's just, it's just like, you know, it could be, it could be something else also.

Michele Lamoureux (21:27): Okay. So who do they go... So let's say somebody-

Shanna Pearson (21:30): You should go to an ADHD-

Michele Lamoureux (21:32): Specialist?

Shanna Pearson (21:32): ... specialist.

Michele Lamoureux (21:33): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (21:34): You should go to an ADHD specialist. There's also an ADHD, um, you know-

Michele Lamoureux (21:39): Like, a website?

Shanna Pearson (21:39): ... self-reporting scale. You can look these things up-

Michele Lamoureux (21:41): Okay

Shanna Pearson (21:41): ... also, right? So-

Michele Lamoureux (21:42): Is there a website that has a list of, like, reliable providers, or does that not exist as far as-

Shanna Pearson (21:46): Oh, it does. It's, um, I don't know. It's not necessarily... It's a, it's a website that has a lot of providers-

Michele Lamoureux (21:53): Doesn't mean it's reliable. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (21:54): ... um, ADDA, but it, it's also, it also could be quite outdated. It doesn't have everyone.

Michele Lamoureux (21:59): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (21:59): But if you look, if anyone, like, right now, you just google "ADHD doctor"-

Michele Lamoureux (22:04): Yes

Shanna Pearson (22:04): ... "near me"-

Michele Lamoureux (22:05): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (22:05): ... and they should be able to give you the proper... Oh, but here's another-

Michele Lamoureux (22:09): Recommendation

Shanna Pearson (22:09): ... here's another segue, but it's not really a segue. This is important.

Michele Lamoureux (22:12): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (22:12): The, the adult diagnostic criteria that a doctor will give you also (chuckles) um, definitely asks different questions than the depression and anxiety scaling, but a lot of the, a lot of the questions that are asked here are very, um... It's about, it's about external organization, productivity.

Michele Lamoureux (22:34): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (22:34): It doesn't touch on the emotional overwhelm aspects, the ruminating, all of the things that women do in spades.

Michele Lamoureux (22:41): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (22:41): So a lot of this is even more friendly for males than for females, even the ADHD diagnostic tool.

Michele Lamoureux (22:48): So again-

Shanna Pearson (22:50): That's why (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (22:51): ... why we're having this conversation. Why, even though you work with women and men-

Shanna Pearson (22:55): Yeah

Michele Lamoureux (22:55): ... that, this is maybe why your book is for women because there is a gender- you call it the ADHD-

Shanna Pearson (23:00): The gender gap

Michele Lamoureux (23:01): ... gender gap.

Shanna Pearson (23:01): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (23:02): So, okay, so let's... We're gonna just take one step back, and-

Shanna Pearson (23:05): Sure

Michele Lamoureux (23:05): ... so basically, they look up ADHD, um-

Shanna Pearson (23:08): Just go to a doctor, a real doctor, not-

Michele Lamoureux (23:11): Yes

Shanna Pearson (23:11): ... not, like, go to not a chiropractor who knows a lot about ADHD.

Michele Lamoureux (23:14): Right, right.

Shanna Pearson (23:14): And I'm not saying chiropr-

Michele Lamoureux (23:15): No

Shanna Pearson (23:15): ... like, good for chiropractors, but there are so many people who... Just go to a doctor, a psychologist or a psychiatrist, who specializes in ADHD, and get a proper diagnosis.

Michele Lamoureux (23:27): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (23:27): A proper diagnosis should not ever take less than an hour.

Michele Lamoureux (23:31): Okay, so that's huge.

Shanna Pearson (23:32): Mm.

Michele Lamoureux (23:32): Okay, and so-

Shanna Pearson (23:33): And it should be something that covers your entire history, not just how you feel today or this month.

Michele Lamoureux (23:38): Right. You brought in report cards from when you were little, job histories.

Shanna Pearson (23:41): From kindergarten.

Michele Lamoureux (23:42): Yeah, I mean, like-

Shanna Pearson (23:42): They wanted everything.

Michele Lamoureux (23:44): And you had it. That's pretty good. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (23:46): I didn't, my mother did, but-

Michele Lamoureux (23:47): Oh, that's what I mean, somebody saved it for you.

Shanna Pearson (23:49): Really-

Michele Lamoureux (23:49): That's pretty good

Shanna Pearson (23:49): ... somebody had it.... but it's really funny when you look at these report cards, right? And it's like-

Michele Lamoureux (23:54): Like the comments

Shanna Pearson (23:54): ... you know, daydreaming, and, and never, you know, doesn't know what's go- disorganized, doesn't know what's going on, um, always has to be reminded, right? 'Cause I was just basically, I was just thinking about other things. I was not paying attention, and I was in my own fabulously entertaining mind. (laughs) So thinking about, you know, whatever was more interesting than what my teacher was talking about.

Michele Lamoureux (24:17): Right. Yeah, probably depending on the subject, you were either focused or you weren't-

Shanna Pearson (24:21): Right

Michele Lamoureux (24:21): ... depending on how interested you were, right?

Shanna Pearson (24:23): Exactly.

Michele Lamoureux (24:24): So what are some clues, though? So like, how does... Like, what would somebody be like, "Oh, yeah, I always feel," like you mentioned, overwhelmed. We talked about, um, you know, people might label you as unreliable or intense or dramatic. So like you ta- talked about the emotional chaos, catastrophic thinking, feeling misunderstood. So but like, what is like a day-to-day example?

Shanna Pearson (24:44): A day-to- I think the simplest-

Michele Lamoureux (24:46): Yes

Shanna Pearson (24:47): ... um, the simplest thing that-

Michele Lamoureux (24:48): Most common, most common-

Shanna Pearson (24:49): Most common

Michele Lamoureux (24:51): ... 'cause obviously not everyone's gonna be the same.

Shanna Pearson (24:51): And, and what is not mentioned in the anxiety and depression scales or the ADHD one, so I will just tell you and your (laughs) and your people, everyone, the most common is almost debilitating overwhelm.

Michele Lamoureux (25:04): Hmm. I noticed that it was interesting, you said that people don't procrastinate for the sake of needing that, like, adrenaline rush, which is why I procrastinate.

Shanna Pearson (25:13): Right. Right.

Michele Lamoureux (25:14): I... That's just my personality type, having done my Myers-Briggs. Like, I know I need that, like, deadline or whatever.

Shanna Pearson (25:20): Last minute.

Michele Lamoureux (25:20): I need that.

Shanna Pearson (25:21): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (25:21): It's unfortunate. I've worked around that, but, (laughs) but-

Shanna Pearson (25:24): It's stressful, though, right? But you still-

Michele Lamoureux (25:26): It's super stressful

Shanna Pearson (25:26): ... but, you know-

Michele Lamoureux (25:27): But I found it really interesting. So the reason, though, for people with ADHD is?

Shanna Pearson (25:32): We don't know where or how to start.

Michele Lamoureux (25:36): It's overwhelming.

Shanna Pearson (25:37): Period.

Michele Lamoureux (25:38): So there's avoidance.

Shanna Pearson (25:38): We just don't know how to start. We're frozen. I call it the deer in cotton headlights syndrome.

Michele Lamoureux (25:43): Hmm.

Shanna Pearson (25:44): And we literally live in that every day, if not moment by moment. We're always like that, and, and when we're doing something engaging, it's so easy to plug in, but when we're doing something that is, you know, challenging, or we're unsure of it, or just something that's not necessarily super familiar-

Michele Lamoureux (26:04): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (26:04): ... to us, it's really hard to know, to know how to begin or where to even plug in.

Michele Lamoureux (26:11): Yeah. I also thought it was interesting to learn, so not only that you're born with it, but there is a genetic component.

Shanna Pearson (26:17): There is.

Michele Lamoureux (26:18): There is.

Shanna Pearson (26:18): Which is-

Michele Lamoureux (26:19): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (26:19): ... which makes it easier, I think, 'cause you can-

Michele Lamoureux (26:20): Well, it does.

Shanna Pearson (26:21): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (26:21): Like I said, I think a lot of people are saying, "Oh, I'm working with my kid, but actually, I have those tendencies."

Shanna Pearson (26:26): Yeah. (laughs)

Michele Lamoureux (26:27): They're seeing it in their children, who are being, like, diagnosed by the professionals-

Shanna Pearson (26:31): Yeah

Michele Lamoureux (26:31): ... and then getting help and going, "Wait, I feel like I could use this, too," which is why I think a lot of people now our age, right? So, so tell us about the, the gender gap as it relates to ADHD for women, like the differences between.

Shanna Pearson (26:44): Well, I think the biggest thing it- and, and I wanna just really preface this by saying in general-

Michele Lamoureux (26:49): Yes

Shanna Pearson (26:49): ... 'cause I don't like saying, like, "Men are like this-

Michele Lamoureux (26:52): Of course

Shanna Pearson (26:52): ... and women are like this," because that is so wrong.

Michele Lamoureux (26:55): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (26:55): And, um, I happen to be a woman who identifies very much as a woman but has a lot of the typical, you know, hyperactivity, um, you know, male attributes for ADHD.

Michele Lamoureux (27:08): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (27:08): But, you know, so many women are like, are like me in that way, too. But it's really, in general, men tend to be more physically restless. They tend to do more external damage, especially as adults. They'll, you know, whether it's with, um, it's with substances or, um, other types of addictions, we hear s- we have so much of that with, with our, with a lot of our male clients, much more so than our female clients.

Michele Lamoureux (27:34): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (27:34): Um, driving, (laughs) like speeding, and just... It's just very external. Affairs tend to happen more prevalently, um, in the male population than the female population for the ADHD. That's just based on, you know, all of our clients, but it's wild when you have so many clients over so many years, you can practically- you can, you can, (laughs) you can draw a lot of conclusions. Um, women tend to have a lot of their hyperactivity internalized, and it's almost like a mind that just won't stop, but it won't stop in the worst possible way.

Michele Lamoureux (28:13): Hmm.

Shanna Pearson (28:13): So it's not just like you think a lot, 'cause everyone is thinking nonstop.

Michele Lamoureux (28:16): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (28:17): It's just like it's creating, it's catastrophizing-

Michele Lamoureux (28:20): Hmm

Shanna Pearson (28:20): ... and, and you can't, when you, when you find a solution, you're c- you're instantly on the next thing. Like, you can't just be l- just sit in a, in whatever your solution was. You have to go to the next, you know, problem-

Michele Lamoureux (28:33): Hmm

Shanna Pearson (28:34): ... um, or decision, or the what if, or you're just constantly creating these internalized drama.

Michele Lamoureux (28:41): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (28:41): And so, um, it's different. Men don't do that as much. (laughs) They do more, you know, more of the externals.

Michele Lamoureux (28:49): Right, which is why boys are more likely to be dia-

Shanna Pearson (28:51): Oh, yeah, they're more disruptive.

Michele Lamoureux (28:53): And they're... So they're more likely to be-

Shanna Pearson (28:55): Be noticed

Michele Lamoureux (28:56): ... diagnosed as kids-

Shanna Pearson (28:57): Yes

Michele Lamoureux (28:57): ... versus girls, and they're, they're not.

Shanna Pearson (28:59): Correct.

Michele Lamoureux (28:59): And so they wake up, like you, at 32, or maybe somebody who's listening who's 50, all of a sudden going-

Shanna Pearson (29:04): Oh, for sure.

Michele Lamoureux (29:05): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (29:06): For sure. So boys are disrupt- are more disruptive. They're more annoying, period, to their teachers. (laughs)

Michele Lamoureux (29:13): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (29:13): You know, it's like the teachers are going, like, you have an ADHD boy in your class-

Michele Lamoureux (29:17): Yeah, yeah

Shanna Pearson (29:17): ... you're not gonna, it's, it's gonna be difficult if you're a teacher.

Michele Lamoureux (29:21): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (29:21): That kid is gonna be more disruptive. You can't not notice them. I was the silent... I was, like, just sitting there-

Michele Lamoureux (29:27): Mm

Shanna Pearson (29:27): ... not, not making a peep. There's no disruption going on. A teacher could very well easily ignore me the whole time. Like, why, you know?

Michele Lamoureux (29:35): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (29:35): It's almost like having one less kid in your class. I wasn't really there.

Michele Lamoureux (29:40): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (29:40): I wasn't.

Michele Lamoureux (29:41): You were physically there, but otherwise.

Shanna Pearson (29:42): Barely. Yeah, I was physically there, (laughs) and that was it.

Michele Lamoureux (29:45): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (29:45): I was somewhere else. Um, and so it's easier for them. (laughs) It's, you know, and so it's easy to miss-... in general, with girls.

Michele Lamoureux (29:56): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (29:56): Um, I, I think for women, especially a lot of the women that are being diagnosed now, like 2025, um, first of all, thank goodness (chuckles) they're being diagnosed.

Michele Lamoureux (30:08): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (30:08): Thank goodness.

Michele Lamoureux (30:09): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (30:10): But a lot of women are being diagnosed when they're in perimenopause-

Michele Lamoureux (30:14): Yes

Shanna Pearson (30:15): ... and, and menopause, and it's wild, because, I mean, it makes so much sense.

Michele Lamoureux (30:20): So say why. Why does it make sense?

Shanna Pearson (30:21): Because, well, when your estrogen is lower, the amount of dopamine available in your brain is also lower. They, they, you know, they work- it influences your dopamine, and so when you have lower estrogen, you, your, and you, you will have lower dopamine. If you have ADHD, you already have lower dopamine. So now, (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (30:46): It's really low

Shanna Pearson (30:46): ... now, you're going into a phase of life where all of the things that you've been doing up until now that have hopefully been working somewhat-

Michele Lamoureux (30:55): Yes

Shanna Pearson (30:56): ... are not gonna be as effective, because now you, you have even less dopamine. You are- your ADHD is a lot worse. It's a lot more severe, so whatever you were doing that was helping you before is no longer working.

Michele Lamoureux (31:08): Stop.

Shanna Pearson (31:08): You're like, "Oh, my God, what is wrong with me?" (chuckles) And so, and so that's why they're going to seek out these diag- you know, the diagnosis at that stage of life.

Michele Lamoureux (31:16): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (31:17): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (31:17): And I know we're gonna talk about some of the tools you've created, but let's just talk about what role medication plays in treating ADHD. I understand that you did not take it, is that correct?

Shanna Pearson (31:27): I didn't, because, um... Well, I did (chuckles) for like-

Michele Lamoureux (31:31): Okay

Shanna Pearson (31:31): ... a short period of time.

Michele Lamoureux (31:33): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (31:34): And, um, I, (chuckles) I, I was one of the people that thought I was going, gonna lose my mind if I was on this medication. I think it was... I believe that my doctor, like many other doctors, um, I believe he put me on too high of a dose. So it was like, I don't know how to describe it, but it's almost like if you drink 10 cups of coffee all at once-

Michele Lamoureux (31:57): Oh, no

Shanna Pearson (31:57): ... you're gonna be so wired that you're almost like, it's almost impossible for you to move.

Michele Lamoureux (32:02): Oh, you can't even function. No way.

Shanna Pearson (32:04): Yeah, but it's not the jitteriness, it's just-

Michele Lamoureux (32:06): No

Shanna Pearson (32:06): ... the total, like, you're like-

Michele Lamoureux (32:07): Mental. Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (32:09): And-

Michele Lamoureux (32:09): Your brain's, like, too wired

Shanna Pearson (32:10): ... but-

Michele Lamoureux (32:10): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (32:11): ... but because it was so, I guess, wired, I, I was able to focus.

Michele Lamoureux (32:17): You were?

Shanna Pearson (32:18): For the first time in my life, I was plugged in-

Michele Lamoureux (32:21): Okay

Shanna Pearson (32:21): ... and I was just like, zoom. But I, but I wasn't focused on the right things. And-

Michele Lamoureux (32:26): Interesting (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (32:27): ... (chuckles) And I go-

Michele Lamoureux (32:27): That's interesting.

Shanna Pearson (32:29): You have no idea.

Michele Lamoureux (32:29): You were focused, but not on what you needed to actually, which doesn't solve for why you would be dizzy.

Shanna Pearson (32:34): It doesn't, and that's why medication is not the only answer-

Michele Lamoureux (32:37): Yes

Shanna Pearson (32:37): ... because medication is amazing.

Michele Lamoureux (32:39): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (32:39): It really is amazing-

Michele Lamoureux (32:40): For sure

Shanna Pearson (32:40): ... in helping people to focus. Like, thank goodness, people's lives have been saved with medication.

Michele Lamoureux (32:46): Of course.

Shanna Pearson (32:47): I, I, I talk to parents all the time where their, their kid was flunking, and now they took their, you know, they're, they're taking medication, and now they're doing so much better and... but they're also learning skills, you know? Because if you can focus, that's great, but you have to know what to focus on, and you have to be able to manage your life and your time, not just focus. 'Cause you can focus on your Twitter feed for seven hours. (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (33:10): Oh, God. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (33:10): You know?

Michele Lamoureux (33:11): That's true. That's true.

Shanna Pearson (33:12): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (33:12): Right, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (33:13): Yeah, and there's plenty of people-

Michele Lamoureux (33:14): Maybe stay longer

Shanna Pearson (33:14): ... that do that.

Michele Lamoureux (33:15): Yeah. No, that makes sense. No, I think... Right, and that's why having the right partner, and then being able to, like, adjust, and maybe try a different... Right-

Shanna Pearson (33:22): Yeah, yeah

Michele Lamoureux (33:22): ... 'cause there's so many different medications.

Shanna Pearson (33:24): There's, there's so many different medications. There's so many different dosages. So-

Michele Lamoureux (33:29): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (33:29): ... I had to... I, I, I never took medication to manage my ADHD until I had to write this book.

Michele Lamoureux (33:36): And then you did?

Shanna Pearson (33:37): And then I had to. I had to. I was like-

Michele Lamoureux (33:40): You did, and it worked

Shanna Pearson (33:40): ... dying with this book. So I tried it again.

Michele Lamoureux (33:44): 'Cause you're sensitive to meds. You-

Shanna Pearson (33:45): I-

Michele Lamoureux (33:45): I heard you say in the other-

Shanna Pearson (33:46): I guess I'm really... I, I must still be really sen- 'cause I didn't try anything forever, right?

Michele Lamoureux (33:50): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (33:50): But then I went back, and I'm like, they gave me a, um, a small dose of a, of a typical ADHD med, and I still felt like I was kind of getting just too lost, you know, and, and too hyperfocused on the wrong things. Um, so I asked for a- so I basically asked for half of that, or it was like a pediatric dose. When people describe the zombie feeling, where it's like, "I felt like a zomb- I took these ADHD medications, and it turned me into a zombie"-

Michele Lamoureux (34:18): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (34:18): ... that is because you're on too high of a dose.

Michele Lamoureux (34:21): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (34:21): It's almost always because of that, so just, yeah, cut it in half and see what happens.

Michele Lamoureux (34:24): So for the book, you took on the pediatric- you wrote the book on the pediatric dose?

Shanna Pearson (34:28): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (34:29): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (34:29): Yeah. It was great. It was perfect.

Michele Lamoureux (34:31): It was.

Shanna Pearson (34:31): I didn't, I, I didn't feel anything but, you know, properly focused, and thank goodness I know a gajillion tools (chuckles) to manage my time, and be organized, and, and all of that. Like, m- you know, a lot of the tools that I wrote about, too, but I use them.

Michele Lamoureux (34:43): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (34:43): I use all of these. I have to.

Michele Lamoureux (34:46): Right. Well, you did say- you, so you write, "Pills don't teach skills," so there are behavioral management strategies that people-

Shanna Pearson (34:52): Totally

Michele Lamoureux (34:52): ... can implement. So just give my audience a couple of maybe your favorite, um, so for maybe for, like, better focus and productivity.

Shanna Pearson (35:00): There's a lot more than what's in this book. Um, but the, the only, the super, super tried-and-true, uh, techniques and systems were, were put in-

Michele Lamoureux (35:12): Were put in, yeah

Shanna Pearson (35:12): ... print. (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (35:13): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (35:13): Yeah, and so, 'cause then I can say without ex- any hesitation, these work. You have to do them. Um, and also, don't just, like, read about something and, and think you know it. I, I say that in the book, but I really-

Michele Lamoureux (35:26): Do it, try it

Shanna Pearson (35:27): ... I wanna drive that home, because when we read about something, we always say, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I know that. I know about that. I totally know that. I've heard that. I know it." No, you don't know it until you've done it, and you've done it consistently.

Michele Lamoureux (35:38): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (35:38): And then once you've done it every day for a week, let me know.

Michele Lamoureux (35:41): Right.

Shanna Pearson (35:41): Let me know.

Michele Lamoureux (35:41): 'Cause then you should be seeing some benefits. So okay-

Shanna Pearson (35:44): Yeah

Michele Lamoureux (35:44): ... so what are your favorite, then?

Shanna Pearson (35:45): Well, my, for, for, for general productivity, the number one thing that, that I personally implement are state changes, and just-

Michele Lamoureux (35:56): Are what? States?

Shanna Pearson (35:57): State changes.

Michele Lamoureux (35:58): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (35:59): So there's this, you know-... We have, we have three states: (chuckles) your, your physical state, which is-

Michele Lamoureux (36:05): Yes

Shanna Pearson (36:05): ... you know, what you're, you know, you're what you're doing-

Michele Lamoureux (36:07): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (36:08): ... your mental state, and your emotional state.

Michele Lamoureux (36:10): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (36:11): Right? And so, like, what you're thinking and how you're feeling. Um, but really they're all very difficult to change except for one. What's the simplest, simplest one to change? Is it easy to change how you're thinking? Is it easy to change how you feel? If you're feeling sad, and I tell you, "Don't feel sad anymore-"

Michele Lamoureux (36:27): It's the physical. Get moving.

Shanna Pearson (36:29): Just get moving.

Michele Lamoureux (36:30): Just get moving.

Shanna Pearson (36:30): Your physical state is the simplest to change, and they're-

Michele Lamoureux (36:33): Yes

Shanna Pearson (36:33): ... all connected. So if you change your physical state, you will change, you know, you will change how you're thinking and feeling, like, almost instantly. And so it's the same for productivity. So state changes and physical state changes work to help you improve your... to help get you back on track if you're, if you're going somewhere else or down a rabbit hole on the internet while you're trying to get something else done.

Michele Lamoureux (36:58): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (36:58): Um, and it will also help with your mood at the same time. If you're feeling tired-

Michele Lamoureux (37:02): That's true

Shanna Pearson (37:03): ... or if you're feeling fed up, (chuckles) or if you're, you know, if you're feeling angry or sad, a physical state change is almost like... I, I describe it in the book as like, it's like clicking on your brain's on switch. It just, "No, now I wanna feel like this. Now I wanna do that." And so you can design it. You can... It's different for everyone. A physical state change could be... Honestly, it could be like doing, getting down on the floor right now (chuckles) and doing 10 pushups, like, right now, or it could be something that's more, like, shocking to, to, to your, (chuckles) to your body. Like, like, what one of my clients told me about this one, and I, and I use it all the time now with all of our clients, sucking on a breath mint and then drinking a freezing cold glass of water. (laughing) But it... Imagine that you do that right now.

Michele Lamoureux (37:51): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (37:52): Imagine you were a little bit bored-

Michele Lamoureux (37:53): You're like a little alert

Shanna Pearson (37:53): ... you're gonna do that, you'd be like, "Okay, let's do... Whatever we're doing, let's do it!" (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (37:57): Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (37:57): Right?

Michele Lamoureux (37:58): That's funny.

Shanna Pearson (37:58): Um, a lot of, a lot of us love music, but, like, one song, so you don't get totally off track, but one really good song, and you have to stand up while you're doing it. Um, we started, you know, a a- a few of us, a few of, a few of my coaches... Well, 'cause I was telling them about this, and, and I, and they actually started doing it with a lot of our clients, is having our clients running around their, their place and doing door slaps.

Michele Lamoureux (38:20): How funny.

Shanna Pearson (38:21): Like what we used to do when we were little.

Michele Lamoureux (38:23): Yeah, that's cute, actually.

Shanna Pearson (38:24): You know, just, just-

Michele Lamoureux (38:24): Very sweet

Shanna Pearson (38:24): ... I, you know, I want you to do, like, 30 door slaps, I don't care, in different rooms, and just, like, b- like, all over. Same room, you can hit them again, but in a different order.

Michele Lamoureux (38:32): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (38:32): And it's just, it, it's like a two-minute thing, so it doesn't take, it doesn't take any time away from whatever you're doing, but it completely resets your brain, and it gives you that, that hit. You don't have to go to a gym. (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (38:46): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (38:46): You don't have to be- It's not, it's nothing big.

Michele Lamoureux (38:49): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (38:49): It's small, but it's very, very impactful.

Michele Lamoureux (38:52): Okay, and then you've done that, so then what? Now you're ready to what? Sit down and do the assignments?

Shanna Pearson (38:58): Now you're ready to get back on track, but you also have to have other tools, like, "What am I doing right now?" (chuckles) So, so it's good to have a singular-

Michele Lamoureux (39:08): Focus.

Shanna Pearson (39:08): Mm, a singular focus, which is very difficult when you're living in everything all at once reality, which all of us do, right?

Michele Lamoureux (39:17): Right.

Shanna Pearson (39:17): And so for women with ADHD, it's everything all at once, plus everything is all at once in our minds, too. It's not j-

Michele Lamoureux (39:23): What's, what's most exciting probably is what... even if it's most, not most important. True?

Shanna Pearson (39:28): Yes. What's more exciting and, and just what's more, what's more interesting.

Michele Lamoureux (39:32): Interesting.

Shanna Pearson (39:32): 'Cause like-

Michele Lamoureux (39:33): Not exciting, interesting

Shanna Pearson (39:33): ... you know, a show-

Michele Lamoureux (39:34): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (39:34): ... on Netflix is, like, much... it's, it's a much easier thing to do and a much more interesting thing to do than if you have to do your, I don't know, your bookkeeping for the month. (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (39:43): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (39:44): So, like, what are you gonna, what are you gonna be drawn towards, right? But, but if you're- if you get yourself... Like, if you turn your brain on purposefully, um, and you have a singular thing that you, that you know you need to get back to, and I have, like, visual... I like to put visual cues. I would write it down in my parking lot. Like, this is like an example of a parking lot, where you have a notepad. I write about that in the book. And you're, and you're constantly putting down what you're doing or what you need to do next-

Michele Lamoureux (40:10): Yes

Shanna Pearson (40:10): ... so that it's not in your head.

Michele Lamoureux (40:12): Do you do that in the morning, the night before, or in the moment?

Shanna Pearson (40:15): Um-

Michele Lamoureux (40:15): How do you do it? How do you specifically do it?

Shanna Pearson (40:17): Well, I do my planning the night before.

Michele Lamoureux (40:20): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (40:20): My parking lot is on the spot. So, like, if you and I are talking about something, and then something comes into my mind-

Michele Lamoureux (40:27): Pops into your head, yeah

Shanna Pearson (40:28): ... um, a person with ADHD very well might just, not-

Michele Lamoureux (40:32): Right

Shanna Pearson (40:32): ... not on a, not on a podcast, but they may be, "Just hold on one second. Let me look this up." (chuckles) You know, like, they'll, they'll just go right to that. "Otherwise, I'm gonna forget about it, so I have to do this right now."

Michele Lamoureux (40:40): Interesting. Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (40:40): So you just write it down, then you know it's there. You're not thinking about it anymore. I can get it out of my head and stop-

Michele Lamoureux (40:47): You don't have to worry you're gonna forget it, 'cause that's part of it.

Shanna Pearson (40:49): Down, right.

Michele Lamoureux (40:50): Not remembering, the short-term memory is part of it?

Shanna Pearson (40:52): Exa- Yes, and, and also not trusting our memory.

Michele Lamoureux (40:55): Not trusting it.

Shanna Pearson (40:56): So we're very, um, we tend to (chuckles) when we remember to do something, we'll do it right away because we don't trust that we're gonna remember to do it later.

Michele Lamoureux (41:06): Okay.

Shanna Pearson (41:06): So, I mean, the parking lot is, like, a game changer for that because you're giving it... I say you're giving it the love and attention that it deserves. Whatever that thought is, you're giving it, you know, you're putting it in its own place. You'll never forget it 'cause you have it down. You've written it down. So it's very helpful, and it keeps you from going off track. Because if you and I, again, if you and I are talking, and I have an idea or a thought that I need to now look up, as we all know, looking that up could take me down a rabbit hole of, like, three hours of entertaining everythingness.

Michele Lamoureux (41:38): Right. But like you said, you're on a podcast, but if you were sitting with your family-

Shanna Pearson (41:42): Oh

Michele Lamoureux (41:43): ... you might go do it. You might maybe-

Shanna Pearson (41:44): You'll go do it!

Michele Lamoureux (41:45): You'll go do it.

Shanna Pearson (41:46): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (41:46): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (41:46): You'll go do it. Unless you have an intention of not doing it, and you write it down, and now I'm gonna focus. If I have kids, I'm gonna focus on my kid. I'm not gonna go and interrupt what my kid is saying to me to go, to go do this thing-

Michele Lamoureux (41:57): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (41:57): ... that I just remembered I have to do.

Michele Lamoureux (41:59): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (42:00): Which a lot of us do that.

Michele Lamoureux (42:00): Are there any misconceptions, any misconceptions you want to myth bust around? Like, anything that frustrates you that you think people don't get about ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (42:09): Yes. Um, I think the biggest-... I think the biggest misconception, and I think it really shows up in the, um, in the, in the reporting scale of an ADHD diagnosis, is that ADHD is like a productivity issue. It's about time management and disorganization.

Michele Lamoureux (42:28): Stop.

Shanna Pearson (42:28): And I think a lot of people with ADHD will relate to that because they know it is. Like, like, it's re- people with ADHD tend to have a hard time managing their time and being organized. But truly, ADHD is very much an emotional challenge. It's about, um... It's very hard to regulate our emotions, and because of the overwhelm, and because we have such a hard time compartmentalizing, and putting thoughts in their place, and ideas, and being able to see things for what they are versus, you know, what our brain is creating them as being, and everything becomes so over- like, all-encompassing. Something bad will become everything.

Michele Lamoureux (43:11): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (43:11): And so, and, and, and something good will too, but on a much, unfortunately, on a much smaller scale.

Michele Lamoureux (43:17): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (43:17): Um, but because of the deluge of input in our brain, that tends to be what causes the time mismanagement and the disorganization-

Michele Lamoureux (43:31): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (43:31): ... and the impulsivity.

Michele Lamoureux (43:33): And the overwhelm.

Shanna Pearson (43:33): And all of those external symptoms that doctors attribute to being ADHD are really the symptoms (chuckles) like, these are all symptoms of having a nonstop overwhelmed brain that's highly emotional, and there's n- and, and, and we're not able to manage the emotions, and that's nowhere... Like, that's nowhere on, on any of this.

Michele Lamoureux (43:58): That's nowhere.

Shanna Pearson (44:00): So-

Michele Lamoureux (44:00): It's in your book.

Shanna Pearson (44:02): Yeah. (chuckles) It is, it is- it- I don't know if I... I don't- i- it is definitely in the book. Um, but there should- like, I should write another book just on this-

Michele Lamoureux (44:11): On the emotional component

Shanna Pearson (44:11): ... because I feel like this is something that everyone's missing. Even a lot of ADHD people are missing this. Like, they don't- I think one of the reasons our coaching company became as successful as it did is because I went there immediately. Like, there was me-

Michele Lamoureux (44:28): What do you mean you went there?

Shanna Pearson (44:28): I, I went to the emotional management, um-

Michele Lamoureux (44:31): Right away.

Shanna Pearson (44:32): Instantly, like, 'cause that's what I knew. That's what, that's what I felt like, "This is what we need to do." (chuckles) You know? This is, this is part- this is it. Nobody told me that because there wasn't, like, ADHD coaching programs out there. There wasn't... And even the ones that there are, um, now, they- I don't even think they go into this. It's really all about organization and time management, but it's so much heavier and deeper than that, um, which is why-

Michele Lamoureux (44:56): Anything you can share on that, like, one thing that you do or started on, on the emotional piece to help-

Shanna Pearson (45:02): Oh, yeah!

Michele Lamoureux (45:03): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (45:03): Well, actually, in part three (chuckles) -

Michele Lamoureux (45:05): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (45:05): ... of the book, and I... I think the first chapter, on chapter 12, is mood management.

Michele Lamoureux (45:09): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (45:09): And doing- basically, you know, doing things even when you don't feel like it, because we tend to do what we- based on what, how we feel, and that's like... In a way, that's kind of dangerous because if you're not feeling great, you won't do anything.

Michele Lamoureux (45:25): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (45:26): You know?

Michele Lamoureux (45:26): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (45:26): And so, um, there's, there's a lot of, um... There's some deeper processes that I go into in the book, but in general, just knowing- I mean, the state changes is, like, the simplest thing-

Michele Lamoureux (45:38): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (45:39): ... I can, I can-

Michele Lamoureux (45:39): Just get up and move

Shanna Pearson (45:40): ... park up.

Michele Lamoureux (45:40): 'Cause, you know, I think you used an example of somebody didn't want to get out of bed every day. They couldn't even get off either the couch, or the bed, or the squirrel-

Shanna Pearson (45:47): Right

Michele Lamoureux (45:47): ... 'cause it's just like-

Shanna Pearson (45:49): It's, like, all-encompassing.

Michele Lamoureux (45:50): Uh, yeah, and the overwhelm, and then like, "Ugh, no, no movement," right?

Shanna Pearson (45:54): No movement.

Michele Lamoureux (45:54): So then how do you get- how do you shift that? Like, 'cause that's an emotional thing.

Shanna Pearson (45:58): You start so small. You never get people on this big routine, (chuckles) 'cause that will never work, and it's very overwhelming. You know-

Michele Lamoureux (46:05): Yes

Shanna Pearson (46:05): ... you start by literally doing like-

Michele Lamoureux (46:06): Baby steps

Shanna Pearson (46:07): ... five min- like, not five minutes. What am I saying? Five seconds, get up and go to the- go to your, go to your balcony. That's it.

Michele Lamoureux (46:14): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (46:14): That's step one.

Michele Lamoureux (46:15): Go look out the window. Go-

Shanna Pearson (46:16): Go look out the window.

Michele Lamoureux (46:17): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (46:17): I think one of my favorites for a lot of our clients is just put your shoes on and don't go anywhere.

Michele Lamoureux (46:24): Just doing that.

Shanna Pearson (46:25): Just put your shoes on, 'cause you'll see, and I, I think you, like, even if you imagine, if you're putting your shoes on-

Michele Lamoureux (46:31): Now you're more likely to take that step.

Shanna Pearson (46:33): (chuckles) But you're also gonna be in a different... Like, it kind of sets you- it puts you in a mental state of doing, or going, or other than somewhere else other than where you are right now.

Michele Lamoureux (46:44): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (46:45): So-

Michele Lamoureux (46:45): Um, Sh- Shanna, you're not on social media.

Shanna Pearson (46:47): I'm not. (chuckles) I know.

Michele Lamoureux (46:48): Tell us why. No, that's fine. It's funny, I actually got off of it. Um-

Shanna Pearson (46:53): Did you?

Michele Lamoureux (46:54): I did, and I do find I have more time to focus on what I really want to, and I'm not distracted. Um, I don't think I have ADHD. At one point during COVID, I did. (chuckles) No, I really did, and I think I was-

Shanna Pearson (47:06): (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (47:06): ... not feeling myself, and, like, I felt like I couldn't focus, but I think it was just, like, the overwhelm-

Shanna Pearson (47:11): The overwhelm

Michele Lamoureux (47:11): ... that situation.

Shanna Pearson (47:13): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (47:13): Um, but there were times where, like, I was like, "Do, do I have that? Don't I?" But I will say, seeing too much information as- at once, when I'm so deeply curious, doesn't feed me in a way that makes me feel good.

Shanna Pearson (47:26): Right.

Michele Lamoureux (47:26): And I also deserve to feel good, so, like, why am I gonna scroll for an hour and then feel worse at the end of it? Like, it, it hits the dopamine centers. I mean, it's designed to keep us-

Shanna Pearson (47:36): Yeah, it does

Michele Lamoureux (47:37): ... scrolling.

Shanna Pearson (47:37): It's, like, it's never-ending.

Michele Lamoureux (47:38): It's designed-

Shanna Pearson (47:38): It's never-ending.

Michele Lamoureux (47:38): But I'm no longer... I don't have that- like, I used to not be able to stay away from it. I used to delete it-

Shanna Pearson (47:44): Oh

Michele Lamoureux (47:44): ... and then, like, put it back on.

Shanna Pearson (47:46): Okay.

Michele Lamoureux (47:46): I care less now.

Shanna Pearson (47:48): So I'm not on social media because it is just not my... It's not a world I want to be in, and that's a choice.

Michele Lamoureux (47:53): Do you think for people with ADHD, though, is that more of a red flag? Like, should they be more aware of their usage?

Shanna Pearson (48:02): That goes without saying, and thank you for saying it (chuckles) 'cause, to me, it's just so... It's literally like putting, um, a recovering alcoholic in a bar. Like, you don't wanna do that. It's hard. It's hard for anyone in recovery to go into an environment that's, that, you know, that's really hard for them (chuckles) to manage.... you don't do that to yourself. Why would you ever do that to yourself? Love yourself more than that. (chuckles) You know, take care of yourself. If you have ADHD, it's a good idea (chuckles) to stay away from things that just keep roping you in with, with, with a lot of BS, because you're not, you're not gonna be able to get what you actually want. What, what's actually important to you is getting further and further and further away.

Michele Lamoureux (48:51): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (48:51): And so you need to-

Michele Lamoureux (48:52): How do we help a teen, though? Like, these kids, that's how they socially connect. It's in- it's, like, constructed now that you can't really not be on it at some point, because-

Shanna Pearson (49:02): Yeah, I mean, it's, it's impossible. I have a- I have two kids, and I have a 13 and a 14-year-old, and I cannot believe that kids these days are going to school with literally a TV in their backpack. Like, they can watch any video anytime they want. They can... Instead of doing homework, (chuckles) they could just be on-

Michele Lamoureux (49:20): That's true

Shanna Pearson (49:20): ... they could be on Netflix. It's, it's unbelievable. (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (49:23): Not funny.

Shanna Pearson (49:23): It's unreal! But, um, I figured out (chuckles) -

Michele Lamoureux (49:26): Yes, any tips?

Shanna Pearson (49:27): And it's-

Michele Lamoureux (49:28): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (49:28): ... the only thing that I've figured out, besides putting a million blocks on everything, which they somehow always manage to, (chuckles) to figure out.

Michele Lamoureux (49:35): Override. Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (49:37): Um, I figured out that it's just the most basic of all basics, is just time limits.

Michele Lamoureux (49:43): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (49:43): You have two hours to do homework.

Michele Lamoureux (49:45): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (49:46): I don't- if you want to watch Netflix, go for it, but you have two hours, and then your computer goes away.

Michele Lamoureux (49:49): Right, at least focus on what you actually need to get done.

Shanna Pearson (49:51): Yeah, your computer's gone-

Michele Lamoureux (49:52): And that's the priority

Shanna Pearson (49:54): ... after that.

Michele Lamoureux (49:54): And then-

Shanna Pearson (49:54): Yeah

Michele Lamoureux (49:55): ... then you get to-

Shanna Pearson (49:55): And so then they can learn, "What do I want to do with these two hours?"

Michele Lamoureux (49:59): Right.

Shanna Pearson (49:59): You know? Like, am I gonna just, like, watch videos and stupid animal videos? (chuckles) 'Cause my daughter used to watch animal videos- (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (50:05): I know

Shanna Pearson (50:05): ... which are actually funny. (chuckles)

Michele Lamoureux (50:07): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (50:07): But put a limit. Put a limit. I'm a big believer in limits, and I know that sounds, like, easier said than done, but I promise you, it's so much better. We, we thrive with, with, with walls.

Michele Lamoureux (50:19): Yes.

Shanna Pearson (50:19): There's a whole thing in my book about this, about putting things in compartments-

Michele Lamoureux (50:23): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (50:23): ... and creating, creating boundaries, because our brain doesn't do that. The ADHD brain does not compartmentalize very well. So if you can put a limit on, on, on the amount of time that you allow yourself on social media, you know, go on social media, but just don't go on it for seven hours-

Michele Lamoureux (50:41): I know

Shanna Pearson (50:41): ... or three hours even.

Michele Lamoureux (50:42): Right, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (50:42): Just, just-

Michele Lamoureux (50:43): Yeah, curb that a bit. So where can people learn more about you and your work? And, um, I will hold up the book for anyone who happens to be watching on YouTube, which, where I am on. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (50:53): Perfect!

Michele Lamoureux (50:53): I do have a YouTube channel, so do, do follow that. I feel like that's not as addictive, but maybe I'm wrong. Um, Invisible ADHD: Proven Mood and Life Management for Smart Yet Scattered Women. So where can people find you?

Shanna Pearson (51:05): Um, the easiest place to find me is on my website, which is adhdcoaching.com. Um, and I believe when the book comes out, it'll be... You know, you can go right to invisibleadhd.com, but at the moment, I think that just forwards to my website. (chuckles) So yeah, just if, if anybody has any questions, or, you know, just... I think we have, like, free intro coaching sessions at the moment, then, yeah, go for it. Take us up on it.

Michele Lamoureux (51:30): Perfect, and all of that will be in the show notes, right on their podcast player, so there'll be a direct link to reach out to-

Shanna Pearson (51:36): Oh, cool

Michele Lamoureux (51:36): ... Shanna and to learn about the book and the work that you're doing. Um, we'll have to do a part two at some point, because it just, it's so much.

Shanna Pearson (51:43): There's so much.

Michele Lamoureux (51:44): You know? There's so much here.

Shanna Pearson (51:45): Yeah.

Michele Lamoureux (51:45): And, um, thank you for educating me and my audience. It's such an important topic, so thank you for the work you're doing.

Shanna Pearson (51:50): Oh, it's great to be here, and I loved meeting you, so this was awesome.

Michele Lamoureux (51:54): Great.

Shanna Pearson (51:54): Thanks, Michele.

Michele Lamoureux (51:56): (upbeat music) Hey, friend, I have one request before we sign off today. If you've gained any value from any of the interviews that you've tuned into, would you take just one minute and leave a five-star rating and review over on Apple Podcasts? It's actually how more women can find the show, and I want to continue growing a community of women who are loving themselves and living full on. So thank you for all of your support, and I look forward to being back with you next week. Bye for now.

Narrator (52:28): This podcast is presented for entertainment and educational purposes only. Any information provided is not intended to be a substitute for medical, mental health, or other professional advice. Seek out your trusted healthcare provider or other qualified professional for all matters dealing with your health and well-being. Any opinions or information provided by a guest are their own and not those of Michele Lamoureux or the company.

Transcribed from the episode audio.