ADHD Is Not What You Think: The Most Misunderstood Condition in Women
Podcast · Everyday Wellness · Episode 499
Hosted by Cynthia Thurlow · Guest: Shanna Pearson · · 58 min watch
On episode 499 of Everyday Wellness, nurse practitioner Cynthia Thurlow talks with Shanna Pearson, founder of Expert ADHD Coaching and author of Invisible ADHD, about what ADHD is, how it shows up differently in women, why so many women are misdiagnosed, and practical tools for managing it.
In this episode
- What is known about dopamine in the ADHD brain, and how ADHD tends to look different in women and men
- Why women first diagnosed in perimenopause or menopause have been called a lost generation
- How the GAD-7 and PHQ-9 screening forms lead many women with ADHD to a diagnosis of anxiety or depression first
- Mood management, medication dosage, and why sleep comes first
- Three strategies from Invisible ADHD: mood scheduling, “keep it to three and you’re free,” and writing with your non-dominant hand
- Delayed gratification, and what instant everything means for kids
Episode links
- The episode page on cynthiathurlow.com, with show notes and Everyday Wellness’s own transcript of the audio episode
- The video on YouTube
- Apple Podcasts and Spotify
Transcript
This transcript follows the video above. Times are minutes and seconds into it. The video opens with a short clip from later in the conversation and ends with a clip from another Everyday Wellness video. The audio episode opens differently, so its times differ.
Shanna Pearson (0:00): but mood management is everything. It's everything for women who have ADHD, because i- think about it like this: We have a brain, and it's a beautiful brain, and we're very smart, (chuckles) but our brain is unable to compartmentalize. Unable. Zero. (chuckles) So you've got a mood, and you've got this emotion, and you cannot compartmentalize it-
Cynthia Thurlow (0:24): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (0:24): ... so it goes into everything. It spreads into every aspect of your being, of your soul, (chuckles) of your body. Like, it's just, you are, you become that mood. And so because we cannot compartmentalize, moods and emotions are everything, and managing your moods and emotions is everything.
Cynthia Thurlow (0:44): I think ADHD is so misunderstood, and in particular, I think many women go their entire lifetime before they're actually diagnosed. So I'm starting to see more and more patients in perimenopause and menopause who are like, "You're not gonna believe this. I just got diagnosed-
Shanna Pearson (1:01): Mm-hmm
Cynthia Thurlow (1:01): ... with ADHD."
Shanna Pearson (1:03): Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Thurlow (1:03): So let's unpack what ADHD actually is, because I think many of us, maybe that are parents, our exposure to attention deficit hyperactivity disorder is really in the context of children's friends or children that we know, and there's so much more to it. This is not something that just occurs in children.
Shanna Pearson (1:25): No.
Cynthia Thurlow (1:25): It is something that occurs throughout the trajectory of our lifetime.
Shanna Pearson (1:30): Once i- uh, if you're born with ADHD, you have ADHD. So all of the adults that are being diagnosed now with ADHD have had it their entire life and were probably, you know, utilizing some pretty amazing s- skills and tools just to, to get by. And things were likely... If you're talking to these people now, and you ask them about their childhood, things were likely a lot harder for them in terms of, you know, schoolwork and just being able to, to, to get something done and, and in their careers, and it just always seems like things were harder for them than they were for everyone else. So they, they figure out ways to, to get by and to succeed, but it's stressful, and it's difficult, and they've been living with this condition, and they had no idea. So-
Cynthia Thurlow (2:19): Yeah, I, I think for so many of us, you know, whatever makes us unique, and whether it's that we're a little neurodivergent, whether we've got some degree of ADHD, I think we all compensate for our own peculiarities, our own uniqueness. And one of the things that I find really interesting is now we understand a whole lot more about the biochemistry of what's actually going on in the brain with ADHD. Can we talk a little bit about this? 'Cause I do find it really interesting how neurotransmitters, how these chemical messengers, might impact or might interact differently in a ADHD brain versus a non-ADHD brain.
Shanna Pearson (3:01): So all we know, and it's kind of interesting based on the fact that it, it seems like ADHD is, like, everywhere (chuckles) lately, especially since the pandemic, right? Um, all we actually know scientifically is that people who have ADHD have less dopamine available in their brain, and whether that's because we have less dopamine or whether, you know, we're producing less or whether it's because less is being absorbed, we don't know exactly, but we have less dopamine, period. And a lot of, a lot of the actions and behaviors that we display as kids and as adults are ways to create more dopamine, and we don't know that that's why we're doing it, (chuckles) but that's what we're doing. It's just... You know, I call it unconsciously creating stimulus.
Cynthia Thurlow (3:53): And how does that show up? Like, if someone's listening, and they're curious, what are some of the habits or some of the symptoms that are more commonly seen with an ADHD brain?
Shanna Pearson (4:06): Well, we're all different, (chuckles) number one. But you'll see... I mean, if we wanna talk about women specifically, it's quite different in general than, than for men specifically because the ways that men tend to, uh, seek out, unconsciously seek out dopamine is more, um, physical: hyperactivity, you know, just in actions, in movements, in, honestly, in eye contact. Like, if you're sitting across a table from a man who has ADHD, he- it's much more likely that he won't be making eye contact with you. (chuckles) You know, he'll be, like, looking around, and, and just, like, you know, you'll see his eyes darting back and forth, and it's just harder for, for us to focus in general on one thing. Um, for women, these behaviors tend to be much more internal, and that's why they're not obvious.
(4:57) That's why a lot of women get missed because our hyperactivity and the ways that we need to create dopamine, even though we don't know that that's what we're doing, um, you can't see it. It's not outwardly disruptive. It's not, it's not obnoxious or disturbing or annoying for our teachers. It's none of that. It's just, like, nonstop- ruminating is a huge one, (chuckles) is one that a lot of us will relate to. Um, catastrophizing, and when I say that, I don't mean, you know, once in a while, because we all do that. I mean every single day. Um, you know, just in terms of, just in terms of how we, you know, think about, you know, one thing to the next thing, to the next thing, to the next thing, to the next thing, and it's really hard for us to follow through, even on a thought.
(5:48) So we tend to go in circles or, you know, just, like, you're here, and then you're here, and then you're here, and then you're here. And it's just- you know, it's, it's kind of interesting because you were mentioning earlier that a lot of women in perimenopause and menopause are just finding out that they have ADHD. But if you think about-... what that actually is. You know, it's when we enter into perimenopause, our- our estrogen is lower. It starts to decline, and that means that our dopamine is also declining. So now you have a person who already has lower dopamine, and they're heading into- and they've managed to get by in their life, and they're, you know, they're doing okay, even though things have been harder.
(6:35) Um, and now they're heading into a phase of life where their- the dopamine that they do have, even that's declining. So it's like all of the symptoms and, you know, things that were kind of being, I guess, you know, being managed (chuckles) in a, in a, in a way, they- you can't manage them anymore because it feels like everything now is just, like, times 10, you know? And a lot of us will, will refer to it as brain fog. That's- that's the term, right? But for, for people with ADHD, it's been like that our entire life, and, and we, we- we've just tried to cover it up or, you know, tried extra hard or, you know, just created systems. But now that quote, unquote brain fog is just, like, taking over our entire life, and we cannot function.
Cynthia Thurlow (7:25): Yeah, I mean, I would imagine as someone that, that doesn't have ADHD, it is hard navigating perimenopause for a non-ADHD brain.
Shanna Pearson (7:36): Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Thurlow (7:37): Take away whatever safety net you have created as a woman with ADHD, maybe not even diagnosed, and you pull out some of the hormones. We know that as we're navigating perimenopause, you know, at some point during perimenopause, 20 to 30% higher levels of estrogen, and then that starts to decline in the kind of latter stages prior to menopause.
Shanna Pearson (7:59): Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow (7:59): And so I, I can imagine, depending on the individual, that they may find that they're having a harder time s- supporting a healthy mood. Like, they may, they may be-
Shanna Pearson (8:09): Right
Cynthia Thurlow (8:10): ... more distressed. There may be more depressive symptoms, more mood disorders, um, a- and this is just conjecture-
Shanna Pearson (8:16): There are
Cynthia Thurlow (8:16): ... just based on what we're talking about because that, that safety net that we've created for ourselves is suddenly pulled away. And I tell everyone that we don't appreciate the neuro changes, the neurological changes, as women are navigating perimenopause into menopause until all of a sudden, something just doesn't feel right. And it's not, "Oh, it's right before my cycle. It's a couple days each month. I have bad PMS," or, you know, "I just don't feel physically or emotionally great right before I get my menstrual cycle." Now, all of a sudden, it is weeks and months of feeling-
Shanna Pearson (8:52): All the time
Cynthia Thurlow (8:52): ... off. And so I think for a lot of women, it's both validating and also distressing to know this is oftentimes a, a, um, a crux of when many women are getting diagnosed, and actually, you refer to this as the lost generation.
Shanna Pearson (9:07): Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow (9:07): And this is when-
Shanna Pearson (9:08): That's the, that's the term these days.
Cynthia Thurlow (9:10): Yeah, the lost generation, that there's a whole group of women who are feeling like they're kind of adrift at sea. Even if they get hormone replacement therapy or they've dialed in on lifestyle, they may still need more support to be able to navigate these significant changes in not just hormones but also neurotransmitter production at this stage of life.
Shanna Pearson (9:32): Mm-hmm. So that's why, um, that's exactly why so many women are, are seeking a diagnosis because it's like this is not... And also, we tend to have friends who are in a similar age range as us, and so you notice that there's, (chuckles) that, that you're- it seems like you're kind of like it's, like, perimenopause or menopause on steroids, quote, unquote, right? Where it's just like, "No, this is not what everyone else is experiencing. This is not typical brain fog."
Cynthia Thurlow (9:58): Absolutely.
Shanna Pearson (9:59): This is... You know, and it turns out that this is ADHD, but it's- I find it really interesting because I feel like every woman who's going through this phase of life, um, benefits from tools that people who have ADHD need to function in their life. Because we're all dealing with this, you know, quote, unquote, "lower dopamine" and, you know, related to lower estrogen. But, you know, this- it's like the same tools work, whether you have ADHD or whether you just quote, unquote, "feel" (chuckles) like you have ADHD. Um, it's really just about managing your life. It's, it's not, you know... Like, what we do isn't about medication or hormone replacement. It's just about, it's about tools and skills to, um, to go from point A to point B without losing your mind.
Cynthia Thurlow (10:45): Yeah, and I, I think it was really helpful when you distinguished the gender differences. Like, we think of ADHD in, in boys and young men is that it's much more physical, outward-facing-
Shanna Pearson (10:56): Mm-hmm
Cynthia Thurlow (10:57): ... and ADHD in women tends to be much more inward-facing, which exper- which, to me, really speaks to how women kind of suffer in silence. I mean, this is a g- this is a generational issue. This is certainly, you know, our generation is maybe finding their voices, but I think subsequent generations, people who maybe had experienced ADHD, they just never got diagnosed. Because this is something that, unless a woman is speaking about it, more often than not, she might look completely, I'm gonna say air quotes, "normal" from the exterior. She may not have trouble focusing in on a conversation. She may not have, not have trouble, like, from an exterior perspective, being able to get tasks done but is really suffering in silence.
Shanna Pearson (11:40): Yeah. No, it's 100%, and that's why a lot of us get missed. And that's why it's, (exhales) it's honestly heartbreaking, and, and we're still in this right now. Like, it's, you know, w- in the year we're in and the, and the time of life we're, we're in, and, and with all of the, you know, medical breakthroughs and understanding and destigmatization of mental health, we're still getting missed. And women are still being misdiagnosed and mismedicated, which is-... it's heartbreaking because it just makes things a lot worse when you're, when you're, when you've been struggling your entire life, and you're not feeling great about where your life is, and how you're feeling, and what you've been able or not able to accomplish, and you talk to your doctor about it.
(12:36) Practically, practically all women are going to be misdiagnosed with depression or anxiety, and especially now. This year, they made, um, the anxiety, you know, self-assessment almost, like, mandatory just before your yearly checkup. And, and we're gonna answer... I actually have the anxiety scales right, right here, if you wanna... I know it's mostly people are listening, but if you want to see, all of the anxiety, um, the self-assessment, this is the GAD-7.
Cynthia Thurlow (13:07): Okay.
Shanna Pearson (13:08): And you've seen this, I'm sure-
Cynthia Thurlow (13:09): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (13:09): ... a thousand times. Um, every single one of these seven questions that they ask you on the self-assessment for anxiety would be answered as more than half the days or nearly every day for a woman who has every- who, who has, uh, ADHD. Like, trouble relaxing, being so restless that it's hard to sit still, uh, feeling afraid, as if something terrible might happen, like what I was saying before about catastrophizing, uh, not being able to control worrying, feeling nervous. These are all female ADHD symptoms. Now, men have them as well, but there's no woman that's not gonna respond to every single one of these on a, on a high level, so they will be diagnosed with anxiety. And it's the same with depression, because the depression, the PHQ-9, which I'm sure you're very familiar with, (chuckles) is, um, is nine questions, and eight of the nine questions would be answered more than half the days or nearly every day by a woman who has ADHD.
(14:12) Only the last one is 100% depression. Otherwise, you know, feeling bad about yourself is one of these questions. Tup- trouble concentrating on things. Tell me if there's a woman with ADHD that you know who doesn't, who doesn't do that. Um, trouble falling or staying asleep. This is any woman with ADHD would be one or the other. And it's just, you know, (chuckles) being so fidgety or restless that you've been- you know, you, you seem to be, like, moving around or, you know, speaking... You know, or you're just trying to, like, keep up with people. These are all 100%, except for the very last question, ADHD symptoms. So everyone, unless you specifically seek out an ADHD diagnosis, you will be misdiagnosed with depression or anxiety. And I just wanna- I wanna...
(15:04) Because now that I'm, I'm talking about this, and I've written this book, and, and everybody wants to talk about this now it seems with me, it's wild because in the last- I'd say in the last six months, when I've been re- very aware of this and speaking about it all the time, I have yet to meet a woman in, you know, born in the '70s or '80s, who has ADHD, who was not initially misdiagnosed. We all have the same story, every single one of us.
Cynthia Thurlow (15:36): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (15:36): And, and most of us were put on antidepressants.
Cynthia Thurlow (15:39): Really?
Shanna Pearson (15:39): Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow (15:39): So-
Shanna Pearson (15:39): And we- and we're not depressed, (chuckles) so.
Cynthia Thurlow (15:42): Well, what I find interesting, so for listeners, you know, the, the GAD-7 and this other depression screening tool-
Shanna Pearson (15:48): PHQ-9.
Cynthia Thurlow (15:49): Yeah, so these screening tools, these are utilized by clinicians. Unless someone is actively looking for ADHD, I can appreciate why this gets missed.
Shanna Pearson (16:01): Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Thurlow (16:01): If someone's listening, and they're like, "I think I might have ADHD," how do women go about getting properly diagnosed? W-
Shanna Pearson (16:08): This is the, the key question because even the ADHD (chuckles) self-assessment, the, the one that you'll tend to get at your, at your physician's office, tends to be based on executive functioning.
Cynthia Thurlow (16:22): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (16:23): You know, following through on things, you know, like, just, like, getting started on tasks and, and such, and it's- and it really, even the ADHD diagnosis misses a lot of the female, uh, symptoms and how we present. And so my advice to anyone who might suspect that they have ADHD is to seek out a diagnosis with a physician who is very familiar (chuckles) with women and, and our symptoms. Otherwise, you will, once again, likely be misdiagnosed with depression or anxiety. And for people who are listening that aren't... You know, that are wondering, "Do I have ADHD, or do... Or am I just anxious? Or maybe I, maybe I do have depression?" And by the way, a lot of us have both.
Cynthia Thurlow (17:04): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (17:04): So it's, like, there's comorbid conditions, but the difference with women who have ADHD, and the one thing you can absolutely count on with 100% of women, is that we live in perpetual overwhelm. And it's so overwhelming, where you often feel like you're a deer caught in headlights. You just don't know what to do. You don't know how to start. You don't know what to do first, and that's your experience all the time.
Cynthia Thurlow (17:39): Yeah, but-
Shanna Pearson (17:39): You can't get out of it, and so that perpetual overwhelm, if you connect to that, or if you're like, "Oh, my gosh, that is totally me, and that's been me since I can remember," then, then I would say you might wanna look into this.
Cynthia Thurlow (17:53): Well, and it's interesting because women are conditioned to believe that our brains are designed to multitask.
Shanna Pearson (18:00): Right. (chuckles)
Cynthia Thurlow (18:01): So imagine... And, and, and I'm the mother of all boys, and I'm the only female in my house, and w- with my kids, I could not give them five instructions. I can't even do that to my husband.
Shanna Pearson (18:11): Right.
Cynthia Thurlow (18:11): It's one- one or two things at a time.
Shanna Pearson (18:13): (chuckles) One at a time.
Cynthia Thurlow (18:14): Right, a- and then they could process and f- and file through. But women are conditioned to believe that we should be able to multitask 24/7, and I would imagine if you have an ADHD brain physiology-... that that would be not only overwhelming, it would be terrifying to try to think that you are expected to get 15 different directions and be able to synthesize it all beautifully in your brain. I, I would imagine with the social conditioning that we're told, like, "Oh, you're, you're, you're brilliant at multitasking, you're a female."
Shanna Pearson (18:45): Right. Here's the thing, because we need extra stimulus and we're con- constantly unconscious- unconsciously seeking out dopamine-
Cynthia Thurlow (18:57): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (18:57): ... we love the idea of multitasking, because it's a game, you know? And it, and it's a game that our brain is playing, it's not necessarily a game that we're playing knowingly. And so it's, you know, if I have to get six things done, I'm gonna go for it, and that's at least a little bit more interesting than just doing one thing at a time. The problem is that we're not gonna be able to do it well, and it's not gonna be done in the way that we would want it to, to be done, all of those six different things. But it's not something that we're necessarily afraid of, because a lot of us love, like, love it, and, and we're constantly doing it. It's a habitual way of living, where we're doing, you know, six to 10 things at the exact same time, and that's just who we are, and it's, like, nonstop, nonstop, nonstop.
(19:44) And that is beautiful for a dopamine-starved brain. Think about it, like, that's exciting and fun and engaging, except then at the end of the day, that's what I- I say it's like running around at 90 miles an hour not getting what you want. Because you're not stopping and you're constantly doing, and you're not... Your results are, are not what you want, even though it's interesting.
Cynthia Thurlow (20:06): So I would imagine that at some point you were inspired to focus in on ADHD and, and to help coach other women. How long did it take you to get a diagnosis?
Shanna Pearson (20:20): Uh, (exhales) it took way too long. Like, I- my life would've been completely different if I had been diagnosed, uh, as a child. And that's just how it is for our generation. Like, I'm sure all of us feel the same way who have been finally diagnosed. But, um, it took a, it took a devastating experience and, uh, a life turned completely inside out to... Like, the- just in the worst way possible. Just, it took, like, hitting rock, rock bottom, and then even deeper than that, to be able to express how unbelievably horrible things were so that, s- you know, and it turned- I was kind of lucky, 'cause when I was expressing things, I, I was at a friend's house, and his, his... He was visiting his parents, and his dad was a psychiatrist.
(21:11) Like, what are the chances of that? So he- the dad was overhearing me talking to my friend, and he was like, "Shanna, (chuckles) have you, you know, have you ever been diagnosed with ADHD?" And, and even then, I was like, "That's something that kids have. I can't believe you're asking me that. That's even- that makes things even worse!" (chuckles) You know? But, you know, that sort of started the process, but it, it took, like, a big, you know, explosion in life to, to even think in that direction.
Cynthia Thurlow (21:41): Well, I think there's probably listeners that are listening to our conversation that are saying, "Yes, that's exactly how mine got diagnosed," or a loved one or a family friend.
Shanna Pearson (21:52): Right.
Cynthia Thurlow (21:52): And, and I think sometimes when our lives are the most challenging, and we have to dig a bit deeper and be more self-reflective, sometimes that's when, you know, the ma- when I use the term the magic happens. That's when we are able to view ourselves differently at that point in our lives maybe than we ever have before.
Shanna Pearson (22:12): I think it's, um... I think it's absolutely amazing how many of us have hit the, the, the deepest, deepest depths of rock bottom and have... You know, it's like rising like a phoenix, (chuckles) you know, and have, like, our entire lives have been transformed from that experience. And I just think, like, it's, it's beautiful and super bizarre (chuckles) how that tends to be, you know, what happens. It's like, well, why does it have to be so bad? But I think it does. I don't- I think if it were just muted, or if it was just, like, you know, a bad month (chuckles) or, you know, not, you know, I got let go from a job, like, something like a typical terrible thing, um, then the transformation wouldn't happen.
(22:58) Because you would then again just be skirting around, you know, skirting along life on the outside and just trying to get by. It- you have to hit certain levels in order to make very severe shifts, because, I mean, you probably know this and y- I'm sure you talk about this, like, pain, pain is definitely a bigger motivator than pleasure. Even though it- that's unfortunate (chuckles) that it is, but it is. Like, if you're in pain, you're gonna do something about it much more quickly than if you just, you know, decide that you want something.
Cynthia Thurlow (23:28): Yeah, and then- and it ties into one of my questions, is how do feelings and emotions play into ADHD? Are they magnified? Are they intensified? How do feelings kind of work with ADHD symptoms in women?
Shanna Pearson (23:43): So for women, this is our thing, it's emotions and mood. And the, the biggest, longest chapter in my book is mood management. Because, I mean, if, if it could have been... I mean, honestly, every chapter in my book could have been a book. (chuckles) But, but mood management is everything. It's everything for women who have ADHD, because we- i- think about it like this: we have a brain, and it's a beautiful brain, and we're very smart, (chuckles) but our brain is unable to compartmentalize. Unable, zero. (chuckles) So you've got a mood and you've got this emotion, and you cannot compartmentalize it.
Cynthia Thurlow (24:26): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (24:26): So it goes into everything. It spreads into every aspect of your being, of your soul, (chuckles) of your body. Like, it's just, you are, you become that mood.... and that's great when it's a good mood (chuckles) 'cause it's like, "Wow, everything is amazing, and it's so awesome, and I love life, and wow, this is fantastic!" And then if, you know, if it's a bad mood, it's like, "Everything is disastrous, and terrible, and my life sucks, and I'm never gonna amount to anything ever." And so because we cannot compartmentalize, moods and emotions are everything, and managing your moods and emotions is everything. Because think about it, I mean, you can- you, you might think, "Oh, I'm always late, and I'm so disorganized, and those are my biggest problems with my ADHD," you know, "Those are my symptoms." But you can have the best time management and organization systems in the world, you know, and these are, like, 100% of the time, ta- tried, tested, true, never fail, you will never be able to implement them if you don't feel like doing it.
(25:30) You just won't. You're gonna have a whole bunch of systems and tools that are just brilliant and are gonna completely change your life, but if you don't feel like implementing them, and you don't want to, or you're having a bad day, and you're just like, don't wanna get out of bed, none of that matters because our moods take over everything. So mood management is actually the number one thing, even though none of our clients come to us saying, "I need to manage my mood." (chuckles) They all come to us like, "I need to be on time for once. I need to remember my friends' birthdays. I need to, like, get organized because everything is such a mess." That's what people see, but that's not what they really need.
Cynthia Thurlow (26:08): Yeah, they-
Shanna Pearson (26:08): 'Cause I think we all have a lot of those tools already. We all know what we're supposed to do.
Cynthia Thurlow (26:13): Right. Well, I mean, it's interesting, I had a wonderful roommate years ago who did have ADHD, was on medication, didn't love being on medication, 'cause she felt like it blunted her mood. You know-
Shanna Pearson (26:24): Sure
Cynthia Thurlow (26:24): ... she was, she was a super happy, outgoing person, and she said, "I know when I have to take this medication because I have to be able to focus. I have exams," or whatever it was with school.
Shanna Pearson (26:34): Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Thurlow (26:34): But she would admit to me, a- and a lot of patients... She was not my patient, but a lot of patients would admit to me, "Certain medications that I take to manage either mood disorders or ADHD, I know I need it, but I don't feel good when I'm on it."
Shanna Pearson (26:48): Right.
Cynthia Thurlow (26:49): So maybe we can touch on the medication piece. I know this is not your area of expertise.
Shanna Pearson (26:53): Definitely.
Cynthia Thurlow (26:53): But obviously, when we're talking about moods, and motivation, and structures, and sym- and systems, an ADHD brain, there are drugs that can force them to fit into that, you know, i- we say jokingly in medicine, you know, you sometimes you have a patient that needs to fit into a round hole, but they're a square or vice versa. Like, it, you know, it's like we're trying to force people into a system that their brains are not conditioned to be able to function within.
Shanna Pearson (27:20): Correct. Correct, that's the whole thing. It's like you're the square peg trying to fit into a round hole. And, and so for those of us who didn't know (chuckles) that we had ADHD, and you are, in reality, the square peg trying to fit into a round hole, and that is your whole life, you feel, you, you feel like you just never, are never being understood, and you're just never gonna belong. And, and everything is different for you, and you're on a different frequency as everyone around you, and you don't know why.
Cynthia Thurlow (27:49): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (27:49): Right? And so, you know, then one day, I hope (chuckles) somebody will tell you what's going on for you, actually, and it's the right diagnosis, and it is ADHD. You will likely be, um... You will likely at least be asked if you wanna try medication, and s- for some people, they're not even asked, they're just told, "Here's your prescription, go fill it, and, and, you know, call me in, you know, w- let's check in again in about two months." And, um, that's just, that's, like, a very small piece, is medication, and also there are so many different types of medication. And not only that, (chuckles) are there different types of medication, there's an entire spectrum of, of the dosage. How much are you supposed to take? So there's the typical dose, and that's what your doctor is going to prescribe for you, is the typical dose, but you're not typical.
Cynthia Thurlow (28:42): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (28:43): And so a lot of people, in my experience, because I would say 70 to 80% of our clients do take medication. So they're in coaching, and they take medication, because obviously your medication does not come with, like, a book of skills and tools. And so, you know, the medication, my, my saying, and a lot of, you know, anybody who looks me up (chuckles) will see, like, I always say this, "Medi- ADHD medication, it does help you focus. It does not help you focus on the right things." So plenty of people (chuckles) who are taking an average dose of a typical ADHD med will be very, you know... They'll say, like, "I've been- I was able to focus on, you know, organizing my kitchen cupboards for, like, seven hours yesterday.
(29:31) Fantastic, but I didn't get anything done at work." Nothing. Nothing. But... Or you're- you know, or what's more, you know, typical is, like, we see hyperfocus on our social media feeds. Literally, you're like, you turn it on, and you're not even looking up for another three hours. That's, that's not effective. (chuckles) You know, that's not good for your life. So how can you... You know, number one, if you're prescribed an, an, a medication, you really have to question the dosage, and if it's making you feel like your mood is blunted, you, you will wanna question the actual medication that you've been prescribed, 'cause it shouldn't feel like that. It should just feel like just enough to keep you focused on what you wanna be focused on.
(30:15) And-
Cynthia Thurlow (30:16): Yeah, I mean, I-
Shanna Pearson (30:16): Yeah
Cynthia Thurlow (30:16): ... I think the, the bio-individuality is certainly a, a, a role. Shared decision-making with your provider is clearly important. To your point, a lot of these drugs are stimulants, and they are not selective, meaning you can organize your kitchen, but then you didn't work, or you-
Shanna Pearson (30:33): Yeah
Cynthia Thurlow (30:33): ... you, you start, uh, scrolling on TikTok, but then you forget you burned the kitchen dinner and forgot to pick up-
Shanna Pearson (30:38): Yeah, or you didn't forget- you didn't pick up your kid. (chuckles)
Cynthia Thurlow (30:41): ... I was gonna say, forgot to pick up your child. And so, so, so those are definitely real concerns and issues, and the sad thing is, like, I'll be totally transparent, I do not have ADHD, but I can tell you, like, of all the social media platforms, the most-... and I don't wanna use the term addictive, the m- the, the, the particular platform that is the easiest to get sucked into is TikTok.
Shanna Pearson (31:05): Oh, for sure.
Cynthia Thurlow (31:06): And, and my kids-
Shanna Pearson (31:06): They call it ADHD Tok (chuckles)
Cynthia Thurlow (31:08): Right. So, so to the point that, like, even someone who doesn't have a brain that's conditioned to be that way, these platforms are designed to keep you-
Shanna Pearson (31:15): Yes
Cynthia Thurlow (31:15): ... on them as long as possible, as, as long as possible, and kind of distract yourself from the rest of your, your existence. So-
Shanna Pearson (31:23): Yep
Cynthia Thurlow (31:23): You talk a little bit about treatments, and you say, "Pills don't treat skills."
Shanna Pearson (31:27): Pills don't teach skills.
Cynthia Thurlow (31:28): Right.
Shanna Pearson (31:28): (laughs)
Cynthia Thurlow (31:28): Yeah, don't treat skills- don't teach skills. Um, let's talk a little bit about a lot of what you spend time discussing in the book is how to address ADHD proactively. Like, what are the things that we can do in our personal lives? And for some of this, it can be a bit of strategy, and, and one thing that really stood out to me was shrinking your to-do list. Like, what are we really-
Shanna Pearson (31:50): Oh, yeah
Cynthia Thurlow (31:51): ... good at as women? And there was a book that came out, gosh, like, 10 years ago. It's called Eat the Frog. And this book-
Shanna Pearson (31:57): Oh, Brian Tracy.
Cynthia Thurlow (31:58): Yeah, and, and so-
Shanna Pearson (31:59): Yeah
Cynthia Thurlow (31:59): ... this book is, like, stupid simple short, but it is something that I remind myself every day. Like, don't put 20 things on your to-do list. Give yourself, like, the two things you wanna do least, and get them done first thing in the morning. That is eating the frog. (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (32:15): There you go.
Cynthia Thurlow (32:15): But it goes along with your kind of shrinking your to-do list in terms of prioritization 'cause it is so easy g- to get lost in the overwhelm.
Shanna Pearson (32:22): Oh, my gosh, all of us do. All of us do, no matter who you are, especially if you're, especially if you're a woman in perimenopause or menopause, right? You're gonna... You, you will get lost inside of the overwhelm, and so I think, I think it's so helpful. And I, I do this before even teaching people how to prioritize, 'cause you need to prioritize-
Cynthia Thurlow (32:42): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (32:42): ... but first, you have to get in the habit of doing less at a time.
Cynthia Thurlow (32:47): Mm.
Shanna Pearson (32:47): And that really is a habit that cannot be overstated because we tend to always wanna do more and more and more and more, and there's, like, this never-ending list. So I would say the, the typical client that comes to us has a to-do list that's minimum 30 items long, and remember, we have a brain that can't compartmentalize. So, (chuckles) you got this to-do list, and there's like- it's like this never-ending list, and you can't compartmentalize. You're gonna look at that list. Your eyes are going to visually see it. What's your brain gonna do? It's just like, pooh, (chuckles) you know? And so it's just, like, this explosion of, "Oh, my gosh, what do I do first? I'm just gonna go turn on the TV. Forget it," (chuckles) you know? And I just-
Cynthia Thurlow (33:26): Then you're looking for a distraction.
Shanna Pearson (33:27): "I can't deal. I can't do any of this. I'm not doing this. I'm going for a walk. I'm gonna text my friend." So you have to get into a completely different habit, which, at the beginning, before you start prioritizing, is just pick two. I mean, we say keep it to three and you're free, but three is the maximum, (chuckles) the very, very maximum. Just pick two. Just go, like, close your eyes and point to one, and start putting those two things on a piece of paper, not on your computer, not on your calendar, 'cause there's gonna be thousands of other things there. Just write it down, just those two things, and that's all you're gonna focus on right now, and that is a new way of, of, of dealing, and that is a new way of managing.
(34:12) And then, you know, once we can get into that habit, we can then start to prioritize, obviously, what two things you wanna do now and what two things need to get done first. And then you need to really separate them. I have it, like... My to-do list, I always have- I talk about a parking lot in my book, um, which I, I, I will... (chuckles) I- I'm such a believer in this so that, because if we have thoughts in our brain and we don't know what to do with them, we're gonna start to take action on them right away. But if you have a parking lot and you just write down those thoughts, now they have a place, and you're- you can kind of relax and not worry that you're gonna lose the thought, and you can keep doing whatever it was that you were doing initially.
(34:52) But if you have... Here's my two da- tasks. I'm showing you a par- like, a notebook. It has task one with a very thick box around it, task two with a very thick box around it, and you have to put the box around it because these have to be contained. They can't, they can't go out, and you can't get anything else to go in. So you focus on task one, and then you focus on task two, and that's it. And this is not overwhelming, especially when you break down your tasks into tiny little steps, and then those become tasks in and of themselves. So task one now has two mini tasks inside of it, and you just focus on one of those at a time.
(35:32) That's how people with ADHD, and that's how, you know, even a woman in perimenopause or menopause, that's how you're gonna be able to get things done, is by training. It's like a retraining just to focus on one thing at a time.
Cynthia Thurlow (35:48): I would actually argue that any woman in middle age needs that reminder, and I say this lovingly because my kids know, like, I have sticky notes-
Shanna Pearson (36:01): (laughs)
Cynthia Thurlow (36:02): ... everywhere. And so, like, if I'm-
Shanna Pearson (36:04): (laughs)
Cynthia Thurlow (36:04): ... if I'm recording a podcast, I'm like, "Oh, I forgot to buy a birthday..." I mean, I can write it down as I'm-
Shanna Pearson (36:09): Yes
Cynthia Thurlow (36:09): ... just so I'm, like, and then the thought's out of my head.
Shanna Pearson (36:11): Good.
Cynthia Thurlow (36:12): How many of us have these massive to-do lists? You are never going to get all those things done, so what I do every day is I have... It's the Eat the Frog, but to your point.
Shanna Pearson (36:19): Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow (36:21): Max three things. These are the things-
Shanna Pearson (36:22): Good
Cynthia Thurlow (36:23): ... that I have to get done, and then I have another list that, like, I will pull things off of every day. Like, do, what on this list needs to be prioritized, if anything?
Shanna Pearson (36:32): If anything.
Cynthia Thurlow (36:32): But I think if... I, I think for so many women, those long to-do lists are overwhelming.
Shanna Pearson (36:38): Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Thurlow (36:39): They are not productive. I would actually argue they probably make you feel bad because you're like, "What I didn't get accomplished today?"
Shanna Pearson (36:47): Right.
Cynthia Thurlow (36:47): I had a patient tell me that a couple weeks ago, "Look at all the things I didn't accomplish," and I was like, "No, let's find a reframe."
Shanna Pearson (36:54): Mm-hmm. Good.
Cynthia Thurlow (36:55): 'Cause even if you just got one thing done-
Shanna Pearson (36:57): Right
Cynthia Thurlow (36:58): ... one thing less on your list.
Shanna Pearson (37:00): Yep.
Cynthia Thurlow (37:00): One thing less.
Shanna Pearson (37:00): And you got it done, and you actually did it.
Cynthia Thurlow (37:02): ... exactly.
Shanna Pearson (37:04): Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow (37:04): Exactly.
Shanna Pearson (37:05): No, 100%.
Cynthia Thurlow (37:06): Talk about lifestyle measures. Like on the podcast-
Shanna Pearson (37:11): Oh
Cynthia Thurlow (37:11): ... we talk a lot about sleep, and stress management, and nutrition, and exercise. These are all foundational to our lives, probably even more so as we are in this middle-age transition. Let's talk about these, because it just reaffirms why our lifestyle choices can either enhance or exacerbate how we perceive ourselves and the world.
Shanna Pearson (37:34): Right. You know, you're- you, you deal with people every single day. So think about a neurotypical patient who has not gotten enough sleep for the last, let's say, week, just one week. They haven't gotten enough sleep. Besides feeling tired, what are their symptoms gonna be?
Cynthia Thurlow (37:57): Oh, they're gonna crave crappy food. They're not gonna feel like exercising. They're probably, uh, not going to interact in a positive manner with their loved ones, 'cause they're short-tempered, and they're cranky.
Shanna Pearson (38:10): Yep.
Cynthia Thurlow (38:10): Oh, I mean, it just hits a trickle effect.
Shanna Pearson (38:11): Are they gonna be, are they gonna be more patient or less patient than usual?
Cynthia Thurlow (38:15): Much less.
Shanna Pearson (38:16): Much less patient. Are they gonna be, um, more impulsive or less impulsive than usual?
Cynthia Thurlow (38:22): More impulsive. (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (38:23): Much more impulsive. Are they gonna be more overwhelmed or less overwhelmed (chuckles) than usual?
Cynthia Thurlow (38:28): More overwhelmed.
Shanna Pearson (38:29): For sure. Everything... Every single symptom of sleep deprivation is an ADHD symptom, all of it.
Cynthia Thurlow (38:38): Isn't that insightful?
Shanna Pearson (38:39): It's, it-
Cynthia Thurlow (38:40): I mean, for anyone who's listening-
Shanna Pearson (38:40): It's unbelievable. So if you have ADHD, and you are not getting enough sleep, for- forget about it. It's the number one thing that you need to be focusing on, because... And anyone who doesn't have enough sleep has all of the same symptoms you have, and now you, who are born (chuckles) like this, now your symptoms have just multiplied by 100. 100! So again, you know, that's like... I would say that's so foundational, and yet, and yet, because the typical ADHD medications tend to be stimulants, so now we're giving a person, a beautiful, brilliant, all of the possibilities available to them in the world, (chuckles) right, a, a stimulant medication and telling them that they need to get more sleep. So it's very difficult if you're taking stimulants, which means... But, you know, it is doable, and the only way to do it properly, to make sure you're getting the right amount of sleep, is to take your medication the second you wake up. Like, keep it next to your bedside table so that you take it as early as possible, so that it wears off when you need to go back to sleep.
Cynthia Thurlow (39:57): Okay.
Shanna Pearson (39:57): If you don't take it till later... If you, if you're somebody who takes your ADHD medication at 11:00 AM or noon, you're not going back to sleep until 2:00 AM or 3:00 AM, and it's just like a... It's just a cycle. Like, you, you cannot break free from that cycle because you're taking these medications.
Cynthia Thurlow (40:13): Well, and it also, I would imagine, disrupts your circadian biology.
Shanna Pearson (40:17): Everything.
Cynthia Thurlow (40:18): So it's going to impact when you fall asleep, when you get hungry, uh, when you feel like you have a libido, if at all.
Shanna Pearson (40:25): Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow (40:25): It probably impacts, you know-
Shanna Pearson (40:27): Yeah, it does
Cynthia Thurlow (40:27): ... everything.
Shanna Pearson (40:28): Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow (40:28): And, and sleep is so foundational to our health, and we talk about that a lot here. When you said, "Imagine how you feel when you're sleep-deprived," that is an ADHD brain. And I think about key times in my adult life, like when I had newborns-
Shanna Pearson (40:41): Mm-hmm
Cynthia Thurlow (40:42): ... or sick kids or my husband wasn't home, and how I felt like I could barely tie my shoes and put one foot in front of the other. It is incredibly humbling, and so I want listeners to-
Shanna Pearson (40:55): Yeah
Cynthia Thurlow (40:55): ... really get a sense for what that distraction or that distracted brain really feels like.
Shanna Pearson (41:02): That's a, that's a perfect example that you just shared, and that really is- it's... That, that seems to be our existence. If we don't know how to manage it, and we're just kind of going with the flow (chuckles) you know, and just trying to get by, and we don't know what to do, that's how it feels, just one foot in front of the other, and it's so difficult. It's so difficult, because everyone around you seems to be doing everything with no problem whatsoever-
Cynthia Thurlow (41:28): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (41:29): ... which makes it even feel worse.
Cynthia Thurlow (41:31): Well, of course, it starts that whole shame, blame-
Shanna Pearson (41:33): Mm-hmm
Cynthia Thurlow (41:33): ... you know, that whole... W- women do such a fantastic job with shaming-
Shanna Pearson (41:37): Oh, yeah
Cynthia Thurlow (41:38): ... shame ourselves-
Shanna Pearson (41:39): (chuckles)
Cynthia Thurlow (41:39): ... backwards and forwards.
Shanna Pearson (41:41): Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow (41:41): Let's talk about some of the other strategies, 'cause this is what I think, you know, for me as a clinician, really is what you do a really profoundly amazing job with, is really helping people think about, like, the importance of having a system, creating goals, the value of delayed gratification in a society (chuckles) where, you know, our kids are growing up in a non-delayed gratification environment.
Shanna Pearson (42:08): Isn't it, isn't it?
Cynthia Thurlow (42:09): I would-
Shanna Pearson (42:10): It's, it's kind of unbelievable when we watch our kids.
Cynthia Thurlow (42:12): Well, I will give you this example, because anyone from our generation will appreciate this. I was saying to my kids, "Unlike having a streaming service, when your dad-
Shanna Pearson (42:21): (chuckles)
Cynthia Thurlow (42:21): ... and I were first married, we would- we were subscribed to Netflix, and we would get DVDs in the mail." So that's number one. They were like, "What?"
Shanna Pearson (42:30): Redbox DVDs. (chuckles)
Cynthia Thurlow (42:31): And I said, "Imagine when I was growing up in the '80s, you would have a V- uh, a, a VHS store, and you would sign up for, like, the most popular movies, and when you got called, you could go and pick up the one copy they had of, like, Breakfast Club or whatever-
Shanna Pearson (42:46): Yeah
Cynthia Thurlow (42:46): ... we were wanting to watch, Scary Movie."
Shanna Pearson (42:48): Yep.
Cynthia Thurlow (42:48): My kids were so stunned, and I said, "My generation knows what it's like for delayed gratification." I said, "Your generation will never fully understand, because whether it is you didn't have to go to the card catalog to find out where the book was in the library..." My kids were-... astonished.
Shanna Pearson (43:06): Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow (43:06): What do you mean? You had to go to the card catalog to figure out- (laughing)
Cynthia Thurlow (43:09): ... where a book was, and you had to go to the stacks to find the book and pull it out yourself. There was no, you instantly can download a PD- there was none of that.
Shanna Pearson: No.
Cynthia Thurlow (43:17): This generation, I'm, I'm curious-
Shanna Pearson (43:20): How it's gonna turn out? (chuckles)
Cynthia Thurlow (43:21): how the lack of delayed gratification is going to play out for them and their brain physiology, and whether or not we're going to see more people that are diagnosed with dopamine issues, brain dopamine issues. I would imagine we're going to see escalating rates of-
Shanna Pearson (43:37): Oh, yeah, there's no question
Cynthia Thurlow (43:38): ... these issues. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (43:39): There's no question. My- I have a son who's 13, and he obviously likes to play video games,
Cynthia Thurlow (43:45): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (43:45): ... and so do his friends. Um, he likes to do a million things, including, you know, music and sports and all of that. But I re- like, I remember hearing, um, hearing his friends at our house, like, just talking about how they can't... It's like imp- it's impossible to wait for anything.
Cynthia Thurlow (44:03): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (44:03): So, like, they were having a hard time with one of, with one of the games, (chuckles) and, and, like, trying to get... I don't know. I don't know what was going on, but it was just- it literally was less than two minutes, and everyone was freaking out.
Cynthia Thurlow (44:15): Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (44:16): And I was like, "Okay, (laughing) let's see if we can go through this step by step." You know, like, turn this off, turn that on, whatever, but it was such a frustrating experience, and I... There's no question that this whole instant gratification, you know, at a moment, like what you were talking about with the, you know, just p- uh, you know, click on your converter and you can have any movie you want, anything at a, at a, you know, snap of the fingers. This is- I, I- (chuckles) it's gonna be interesting to see what happens, but there's no question that we're creating, we're making sure that everyone's brains are wired to just be like w- like right now, right now, right now, right now. That's exactly how these kids are growing up.
Cynthia Thurlow (45:01): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (45:02): And there's nothing, unless you're going to a school that has no technology, where everything is outdoors, (chuckles) and your, you know, your classroom is in a tree house, I don't know what is gonna ch- how we're gonna be able to, to fix that part of, of w- what our kids are experiencing right now. I just don't. 'Cause, like, fourth graders are going to school with a laptop.
Cynthia Thurlow (45:23): Yeah. Well, that was-
Shanna Pearson (45:25): Which, you know, in my mind, that's going to school with a TV in your backpack. Because you can... You know, unless you turn off all of the internet, you, you can have anything you want on that laptop.
Cynthia Thurlow (45:33): Well, it's interesting, most of the schools that my boys... 'Cause I now have a high school senior and a college sophomore. When they were in middle and high school, they had Chromebooks-
Shanna Pearson (45:44): Right
Cynthia Thurlow (45:44): ... and the school system controlled the Chromebook. So-
Shanna Pearson (45:47): Yes
Cynthia Thurlow (45:47): ... they, there was no internet surfing from school, so they had some control. But I agree with you that whether it's the, you know, the power of an iPhone in a pocket, whether it's the accessibility... I was watching a, a show yesterday, and this 23-year-old said, "If you can't get to the point," she was saying to her sister, who was trying to market something, "If you can't get to the point in 10 seconds, my generation will tune you out."
Shanna Pearson (46:10): Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow (46:10): And I thought-
Shanna Pearson (46:11): You're done
Cynthia Thurlow (46:11): ... wow.
Shanna Pearson (46:12): (chuckles)
Cynthia Thurlow (46:12): I mean, that was so... So that kind of typifies this. We have a generation of kids that have a really short attention span-
Shanna Pearson (46:18): Yep
Cynthia Thurlow (46:18): ... and then you magnify, like, if someone has the physiology of ADHD on top of that, I would think it would just magnify all of that.
Shanna Pearson (46:25): Yeah, it does. It really does, and it's very- it's distressing because, you know, everyone i- in, in addition to the fact that they need everything instantly, yesterday, (chuckles) they're, you know, their- they still have to sit in a classroom for the... Our, our local high school, the class- the, the classes are 90 minutes long.
Cynthia Thurlow (46:44): That's long.
Shanna Pearson (46:45): How does that... How is that allowed? (chuckles) Like, we're not... You know? And, and, and that is just how it is, and so all of these kids are, you know, in the... And, and of course they divide up the class with, you know, you know, where you have to listen to the teacher, and now you have to do your work, and now we're gonna talk about it. But still, this is 90 minutes on the same topic.
Cynthia Thurlow (47:05): Yeah.
Shanna Pearson (47:06): You know?
Cynthia Thurlow (47:06): I mean-
Shanna Pearson (47:06): And so a lot of kids are feeling much more frustrated with that than they would've when I was in high school. Our, our classes, back in the day, (chuckles) were 75 minutes-
Cynthia Thurlow (47:15): Mm-hmm
Shanna Pearson (47:15): ... which honestly seems like a long time right now, but we were able to... You know, it was possible. Right now, I don't know how, how these kids are doing it, and I don't think they're having an easy time with it.
Cynthia Thurlow (47:26): No, I would imagine. I mean, I'm, I'm in the middle of a, a program that I'll- thankfully, I'll be finished with it in... Not thankfully, I'm grateful-
Shanna Pearson (47:34): (laughing)
Cynthia Thurlow (47:34): ... that I'm in a program. But I remember we were doing an in-person cohort, and they expected grown adults to sit all day long and passively... Like, we were getting lectures, and we had our laptops open, so we're going through slides, and I turned to the person next to me, and I said-
Shanna Pearson (47:50): Wow
Cynthia Thurlow (47:50): ... "I don't think I've had to sit still this long and concentrate in so many years," and I said, "I have forgotten how challenging it is to do that, even with a brain that can focus." I mean, I can do that, but it just like-
Shanna Pearson (48:04): You're not used to it.
Cynthia Thurlow (48:05): No, but I said, "It gives you a profound appreciation for what we're expecting young people-
Shanna Pearson (48:09): Of our kids
Cynthia Thurlow (48:10): ... to be doing." Exactly.
Shanna Pearson (48:12): 100%.
Cynthia Thurlow (48:12): Exactly.
Shanna Pearson (48:12): Yeah, 100%.
Cynthia Thurlow (48:13): If we were-
Shanna Pearson (48:14): Yeah
Cynthia Thurlow (48:14): ... to think of three strategies that are in the book that you think are the most important... I mean, they're probably all important, but for listeners-
Shanna Pearson (48:23): They're all important, or they wouldn't-
Cynthia Thurlow (48:25): They're all important
Shanna Pearson (48:25): ... be in the book. (laughs)
Cynthia Thurlow (48:25): But maybe, like, your favorite three that we can share with listeners.
Shanna Pearson (48:29): Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Thurlow (48:29): Obviously, if you think you have ADHD or you have a loved one, this would be an excellent resource. But let's focus the, the rest of our time just talking about three of your favorite strategies for women in middle age that are struggling with their symptoms.
Shanna Pearson (48:45): I feel like one of the, one of the strategies that's, like, 100% success rate, (chuckles) where everybody-
Cynthia Thurlow (48:50): Love it
Shanna Pearson (48:50): ... loves this, everybody wants to do it, and everyone does do it, and it works out brilliantly, is, um, is mood scheduling. Because we really aren't all morning people.... you know, and some of us, great (chuckles) some of us-
Cynthia Thurlow (49:01): Surprise! (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (49:02): A lot of us are. (chuckles) But a lot of us are not, and we all have a unique circadian rhythm.
Cynthia Thurlow (49:09): Mm-hmm.
Shanna Pearson (49:10): And, and it turns out, like, even... let's just say, you know, 80% of us are morning people, or 70% of us, we tend to do the most menial tasks (chuckles) at the time of day when we're the most awake and, and wanting, you know, like, wanting to be fed with information. And so I think, like, mood scheduling is very simple. Figure out (chuckles) the times of day that you have the most energy. Like, really figure this out. It may- you know, it might be, like, an hour between, you know, 9 and 10, or it could be- it actually could be between 8 and 9:00 PM, which shockingly, is, is a time that a lot of our clients tend to be, like, their most, like... It's like their calmest, most productive hour of the day.
(49:56) But, you know, for a lot of people, it's the- it's early morning, it could be in the afternoon. Some people they are completely out of energy in the afternoon, zero. So figure out the hours, the blocks, that are your most productive times, and you're gonna have more than one, hopefully. (chuckles) You know, this time and that time. And also figure out the times of day that you have the least amount of energy, 'cause it's gonna be similar, you know, every day. You're gonna notice that you start... Like, people talk about that 3:00, you know, whatever, you know, the slowdown or they need a coffee, but for a lot of us, that's a great time of day. So just figure out what yours is. And when you have your high-energy times of day, that's when you schedule your most difficult tasks, the difficult ones, because your brain needs to be completely turned on, and so use your, use your natural circadian rhythm to help you.
(50:51) The, the times of day that you have the least amount of energy, that's when you schedule your easiest tasks. So you have to be very... You know, you, you really have to be very intentional, okay? Don't just, like, do things according to what you think you should be doing or what everyone else is doing. Easiest tasks at your, at your lowest energy times, hardest tasks at your highest energy times. That will be a game-changer for you. And so, uh, it- and I, I promise, (chuckles) that's one thing that I would, I would recommend everybody start doing immediately, is just, like, mood scheduling. Um, we already talked about keep it to three and you're free. Um, that is something where I think anyone listening or watching, it's so much easier said than done.
(51:37) So you're gonna hear it, you're gonna be like, "Oh yeah, okay, keep it to three and you're free. Great, I'll do that," but then you won't. (chuckles) So I think-
Cynthia Thurlow (51:44): (chuckles) Human nature, right?
Shanna Pearson (51:45): It is.
Cynthia Thurlow (51:45): Like, we're like, "Yes, I'll do that," and then we don't do it.
Shanna Pearson (51:46): "Yeah, I'll do that. Oh, I know about that. I've heard that before." Y- I don't know if you noticed, but in my book, I cannot tell you how many times I tell people, you know, hearing about something does not mean you know it.
Cynthia Thurlow (51:59): Yes.
Shanna Pearson (52:01): It doesn't. I'm sorry. The only way you know something is by doing it, you doing it in your life, period, end of story. Otherwise, you just know about something. So you have to do these things. That's, like, the, the crux of our entire coaching program, is not telling people what to do and hoping that they do it, it's making sure people do it by doing it with them, (chuckles) and we are doing it together, and I'm literally holding your hand, but not physically, 'cause usually it's over Zoom. (chuckles) You know, and we are- you are- it's like muscle memory, now you're doing it. Like, if I had you... You know, "Cynthia, let's figure out, what are your highest energy times of day? And write them down, and actually put it in your calendar what your most difficult tasks are.
(52:46) We're gonna do that together." And then at the end of this podcast, you're gonna actually have a different schedule (chuckles) you know, that... You know, where you're doing, like, things at a different time of day. So don't just hear about these things, do it! (chuckles) Do the mood scheduling. Do the keep it to three and you're free. Um, actually shrink your to-do list. That is, like, key for any woman who is overwhelmed, which I think is all of us. And for... Oh, there's so many. (chuckles) For-
Cynthia Thurlow (53:15): No, there are- I made a list of, like, everything in the book, and I was like... But I, I- this is why I wanted to ask you, like, three of your favorites. One that you find-
Shanna Pearson (53:22): So my personal... Like, this is something that I started doing completely unknowingly, not knowing anything about my brain, um, when I was much younger, like, in elementary school younger. But when I write things out with my do- my non-dominant hand, so that's my left hand, it is- instantly slows me down and slows down my thinking process. Because now, instead of thinking about the 50 billion (chuckles) things that I was thinking about, you know, just before, now I'm only thinking about drawing the letter A. (chuckles) And, like, how do I make an A, and where do I put that little line across? And oh, my God, it's, like, not at the right place. And, you know, if I am upset, this is something that's really key for mood management, anything that's upsetting, I try my very hardest to come up with a solution or an understanding of whatever it was that upset me.
(54:15) So things that upset me personally would be, you know, when my... Honestly, this sounds so silly, because it's, it's something that every parent has to deal with, but when my kids talk back to me, I take it personally. And it's, like, the dumbest thing ever, and I completely know that. (chuckles) But I do, I take it personally, and it really bothers me when they talk back to me. It upsets me. So I know, like, logically, this is what kids do. (chuckles) And, and I try to come up with, like, why did they do that? W- were they feeling disrespected? Were they, you know, just wanting something so badly that they couldn't see another angle around it? So I think about any kind of solution or understanding, and I, and I try to simplify it into one sentence, and then I'll write down that one sentence with my non-dominant hand....
(55:00) so now I am completely (chuckles) focused. Instead of being hurt, and upset, and angry at my kids, I'm, like, totally focused on every letter (chuckles) regarding the solution or the understanding I was trying to come to about why they talked back to me. And when I'm focusing on writing that out, I instantly go from a level 10 of upset to, like, a level one. Like, it's, it's like an instant, it's like a switch, and that is my personal- one of my personal go-tos, is writing things out, solutions with my non-dominant hand, because my brain is way too fast, and I can absolutely go into spins, just like a lot of us. And so I stop that by doing the non-dominant hand writing.
Cynthia Thurlow (55:45): I love that. I mean, I, I think a lot of the strategies in the book are even things that people that do not have ADHD that would benefit from.
Shanna Pearson (55:53): 100%.
Cynthia Thurlow (55:54): And it's like, it's, it's practical, it's insightful. You know, the eat the frog, or keep it to three, like, that has been a life-changing thing for me as an entrepreneur.
Shanna Pearson (56:03): Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Thurlow (56:04): Like, life-changing.
Shanna Pearson (56:06): Good.
Cynthia Thurlow (56:06): I so have enjoyed this conversation.
Shanna Pearson (56:08): Mm.
Cynthia Thurlow (56:08): I think this is really gonna resonate with listeners, many of whom probably suspect they may have some degree of ADHD. Maybe they haven't been formally diagnosed.
Shanna Pearson (56:17): Mm.
Cynthia Thurlow (56:17): I think this book is a great resource. Thank you so much-
Shanna Pearson (56:20): This book is going to help everyone. I, like-
Cynthia Thurlow (56:22): Yeah
Shanna Pearson (56:22): ... I, I already know that, because so many people who have been write- reading advance copies have been, like, sharing it with friends and partners that do not have ADHD, and apparently there's... You know, this, this book will help everyone who has any amount of overwhelm stopping them in their life, and so-
Cynthia Thurlow (56:36): That's everyone.
Shanna Pearson (56:37): Uh, if you, if you want... Yeah, Invisible ADHD, you can, you know, go to invisibleadhd.com, or just get it on Amazon. And, uh, if anybody does have ADHD, and they want help going from point A to point B, and they need extra support, um, we can be found at adhdcoaching.com, and we also offer a free, um, introductory session, just to see if this is a good fit for you. So there's no, no strings whatsoever. You can just check it out if you want some help and support.
Cynthia Thurlow (57:07): Well, thank you so much for this conversation, and as I mentioned, and will mention in the intro, you've helped, you know, hundreds if not thousands, hundreds of thousands of women be able to take back their lives and help build strategies that are sustainable in addressing ADHD. And the other crux of that is, if you're dealing with overwhelm, this book is gonna be very helpful-
Shanna Pearson (57:29): Oh, yeah
Cynthia Thurlow (57:30): ... and I cannot think of any woman out there- (chuckles)
Shanna Pearson (57:32): (chuckles)
Cynthia Thurlow (57:32): ... that at some capacity or another, has had times in their lives where they have certainly felt that way. Thank you for this conversation.
Shanna Pearson (57:38): Thank you, Cynthia. It was so great. (upbeat music)
Cynthia Thurlow (57:41): Hey, if you liked this video, you guys are gonna love this video, and I'll see you there.
Unidentified speaker (57:47): We make almost all of our fat cells during childhood and puberty, and then once we finish puberty, we're done. That number of fat cells, in most people, there are some people who are an exception to this, and that's about 15% of people who are in the obese category, but most people reach a limit, and that's their fat cell number, essentially, for adulthood.
Transcribed from the episode audio.