The Real Reason ADHD Women Still Struggle

Shanna Pearson, founder of Expert ADHD Coaching and author of Invisible ADHD, talks with Alex Partridge on ADHD Chatter about what she sees in the adults she coaches: constant overwhelm, years of masking, and the emotional side of ADHD that the standard diagnostic criteria leave out.

The episode ends with the show’s regular segments: the object she brought to represent ADHD (a sponge, because “we absorb everything”), a listener’s question, and a letter from the previous guest with three rules to live by.

In this episode

• Why the problems clients name first, like time management and procrastination, sit on top of deeper ones: mood and self-esteem
• ADHD as an experience of every door open at once, and why compartmentalizing is so hard
• “Facts are friendly”: writing down small, factual wins, because good days are quickly forgotten
• Why girls with ADHD were missed: their hyperactivity tended to stay inside their heads
• Rejection sensitive dysphoria, feeling unlovable, and asking “Did you mean anything by that?” instead of assuming the worst
• Why so many women with ADHD are diagnosed with anxiety or depression first, and how the standard screening questionnaires overlap with ADHD

Episode links

• The episode on YouTube, with chapter times
• Apple Podcasts and Spotify, where the audio is titled “Founder of World’s No.1 ADHD Coaching company: The real reason ADHD women are still struggling”

Transcript

This transcript follows the video above. Times are minutes and seconds into it. The video opens with a short preview of the conversation.

Shanna Pearson (0:00): everyone with ADHD, regardless of their personality, we all have a very difficult time compartmentalizing. When you have that experience, you're attuned to everything. If you're born with a brain that can't compartmentalize very well, and you've also grown up being completely on the outside of the vast majority of everyone around you, you will end up hypersensitive (chuckles) to all things that are happening around you, and you'll take it personally.

Narrator: Shanna Pearson founded the largest ADHD coaching facility in the world. With over 26 years experience in ADHD coaching- She's helped more than 22,000 people. And overseen over half a million coaching sessions in her glittering career.

Shanna Pearson: Why can't you just? That's what we've been hearing our whole life. It's like, really, why can't you just? You know what? When you're a kid, you hear that from your parents. When you're a student, you hear it from your teachers. When you're an adult, you hear it from your partner. It's like this nonstop message, "Why can't you just?" You start to internalize it, and it's like, "Well, why can't I just?" We're so disconnected from ourselves.

Alex Partridge (0:55): How do you think someone can become more connected to their self, their inner child? What exercises can someone do to try and minimize that gap between their true self and their masked self?

Shanna Pearson (1:04): I think for people who have ADHD specifically, we have to do a lot of things very intentionally.

Alex Partridge (1:10): Quick one before I get distracted. I just wanted to say a very brief thank you to all of my listeners. Thank you for tuning in, and thank you for subscribing and following the podcast. It really, really helps. At ADHD Chatter, my mission is to ask the world-leading experts the hard questions to give you access to the most pioneering advice the world has to offer, and with an aim to help you feel seen. Following and subscribing helps me on my mission to book these incredibly insightful guests and to give you these incredibly insightful interviews. Remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. (upbeat music) Shanna, thank you so much for joining us.

Shanna Pearson (1:49): It's great to be here. I'm excited.

Alex Partridge (1:52): 22,000 people you've coached with ADHD. Where did it all start? What's your mission within the world of ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (2:01): My mission in the world of ADHD is to honestly do and, and spread around as much as possible what actually works for people who have ADHD. And I feel like everything I've been doing in this field has, has been very much like, "I won't do what won't work." Like, I, I, I don't even wanna do big group... Like, huge group programs, 'cause everybody wants, wants us to, you know, "Can you just like..." You know, "Can we just do, like, 100 people at a time? And, and, and then we can- it's much more, you know-

Alex Partridge (2:37): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (2:37): ... leveraged, and you can scale," and all of that, and I won't do it. Because I know 100% that every person with ADHD is completely different than the next person, you know? And they all need, like, hand- a little bit of hand-holding, even if you're a super high achiever and incredibly successful. Um, we just- it's just very individualized, so I just do what works. That's my mission, and then with the book that I just wrote, I, I put a... I put so many of our tools in that book, because, um, I just want everyone to have this. That's my... That's, that's my goal, is we have things that work.

Alex Partridge (3:12): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (3:12): This is what it is. Please use it.

Alex Partridge (3:15): I share a lot of that mission with you, and I think when you say what works for people with ADHD, like, that implies, right, that there are some challenges that you need to find things that work for. Like, out of the people that you've coached, what, what do you think, what do you see those common challenges being?

Shanna Pearson (3:29): It's interesting, because if I look at... We have a contact form on our website, and the contact form says, you know, "What are your top three challenges?" 'Cause we wanna know each person-

Alex Partridge (3:38): Mm

Shanna Pearson (3:38): ... and that's a really good way to know somebody, is what are you struggling with, and what are your goals? But the challenges that people write before they've ever started are very surface, so they need help with, you know, time management and organization. Um, a lot of people will be like, um, you know, procrastination, which, which seems like it's part of time management, but isn't really, and, you know, it's very surface. That's what they come for. What really causes people to, to make the changes that they need to make is, is quite different than that. Because I could teach you, like, the most amazing time management tools in the world, and you'll never, ever use them if you don't think you can use them, if you don't think it's gonna work for you, and if you don't feel-

Alex Partridge (4:25): Mm

Shanna Pearson (4:25): ... like using them. If you're just like, "I don't wanna do this today," (chuckles) you know, "I'm not doing that." So a lot of, a lot of the challenges that people really come to us f- with is, are more about, you know, mood management and self-esteem, believe it or not.

Alex Partridge (4:38): It's the emotional side of it, right, as well? Because you said there, procrastination isn't just time management, and that, that's so true. I think a lot of people who don't get ADHD would say, "Oh, you procrastinate. You just can't-

Shanna Pearson (4:48): Yeah

Alex Partridge (4:48): ... manage your time." But there's an emotional side to it, right? There's, like, perfectionism. There's fear of failure. Like, there's a huge emotional element as to why somebody might not start a task.

Shanna Pearson (4:58): 100%. I think it's all emotional. I think, I think we're very, we're very good at starting lots of tasks when we feel like doing them. (chuckles) Like-

Alex Partridge (5:06): Yes

Shanna Pearson (5:06): ... like, that's where the impulsivity comes from-

Alex Partridge (5:08): 3:00 AM in the morning

Shanna Pearson (5:08): ... and you just jump into things, and you don't stop.

Alex Partridge (5:10): Yeah. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (5:10): And it's like, "I have to do that right now!" And you do it, right? So it's, it's, it's really not that-

Alex Partridge (5:15): Mm

Shanna Pearson (5:15): ... we don't know how to get started on things. We're very good at that. It's, it's... We're held back by, um, s- o- often, it's fear, but it all stems in overwhelm.

Alex Partridge (5:24): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (5:25): And a lot of times, if- especially if we're... If, if whatever we were procrastinating on has any kind of, you know, emotion around it or, or heaviness or, you know, just a weight, we're, we're like, "Oh, my God, this is such a big deal."

Alex Partridge (5:37): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (5:38): And then you're spinning in your head for months, honestly, (chuckles) like... And just, like, you don't know how to start. You know exactly what you need to do, but you don't know how to go about doing it.

Alex Partridge (5:49): Well, starting something, doing something, putting your foot forward, opening any doors exposes you to criticism, right? Like, it ex- exposes you to the risk of letting someone down if it isn't done to a perfect standard. I think-

Shanna Pearson (6:02): Right

Alex Partridge (6:02): ... and that's a-

Shanna Pearson (6:02): It's criticism, and judgment, and-... on, on the, um, you know, what if, if I do this, and, and it's, and it's not the way that, that it should be, everything that everyone has always said about me for my entire life is gonna be right.

Alex Partridge (6:18): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (6:19): You know? And then, and then conversely, if I do this, and it's amazing, and it's gonna lead to all of these other things, how on earth am I gonna be able to handle that?

Alex Partridge (6:29): Mm. It's-

Shanna Pearson (6:29): So it's like a new responsibility, and it's very scary, and it's just- it's overwhelming because we'll take this thought, and we'll take a fear, and it just expands.

Alex Partridge (6:38): Mm. It's easier to hide behind the camouflage, and that often involves not doing anything. 'Cause if you don't do something, then you're not exposing yourself to that risk of criticism, that pain of, like, someone seeing through the mask of perfection. You might do something to a subpar standard-

Shanna Pearson (6:52): Right

Alex Partridge (6:52): ... someone's gonna see that, and that internal critic, that internal narrative, that internal monologue that you tell yourself, that y- it, it's sad. It's heartbreaking. So many people with ADHD truly believe that they're useless, and that's such a heartbreaking thing, and you don't wanna risk the world reinforcing that by doing anything that gives them a chance to validate it.

Shanna Pearson (7:11): Exactly. That's why people hide. It's, like, exactly like when you were saying hiding behind a mask and just playing it safe, you know? And if I, if I stay small, and nobody sees me (chuckles) and nobody, like, you know... And I, I can just, like, keep doing what I'm doing and stay in my comfort zone and, um, and not grow.

Alex Partridge (7:29): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (7:30): And it's har- that's heartbreaking to me because I know very logically that the people that, that I help, the people that we work with, are adults who have come to the realization that they want to be more-

Alex Partridge (7:45): Mm

Shanna Pearson (7:45): ... or feel better. They just wanna feel better. They just want the spinning to stop. They wanna be grounded. They wanna be in, in control of their life because it's completely unraveled. And then there's, like, millions and millions and millions of people that, that don't reach out for help-

Alex Partridge (8:00): Mm

Shanna Pearson (8:00): ... that don't, um, that are terrified of, of doing anything differently because what's that, you know, what-

Alex Partridge (8:08): Mm

Shanna Pearson (8:08): ... that's gonna, like, shake up their reality, and, and that, even that can fall apart. And so, you know, it's like the people- even the people that are, you know, the audience that watches and listens to this podcast, these are amazing (chuckles) people that, that know that there's something to learn, and they know-

Alex Partridge (8:26): Mm

Shanna Pearson (8:26): ... that there's places to grow. But there's a lot of people that just are still hiding. There's millions of people that are still hiding and just don't know what to do.

Alex Partridge (8:34): This is really interesting because you're in a unique position. You've, you've coached 22,000 people, right? Um, but yet, if you asked a doctor, "What is ADHD?" someone who hadn't necessarily been exposed to so much real, lived experience-

Shanna Pearson (8:49): Right

Alex Partridge (8:49): ... they would still tell you it's simply a neurodevelopmental disorder-

Shanna Pearson (8:52): Right

Alex Partridge (8:52): ... characterized by traits of impulsivity, forgetfulness, and disorganization. But I feel like that's missing such a big part of the story, the whole emotional piece, which I think is so massive. Like, from your point of view, how would you describe, define ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (9:07): Wow! ADHD is, um, ADHD is... So first of all, I wanna go back to what you just said about the doctors because it blows my mind-

Alex Partridge (9:16): Mm

Shanna Pearson (9:16): ... how, how little the medical community still knows and understands about ADHD, even though they know so much. The medical community is amazing (chuckles) and they do a lot of, you know, incredible work, but there's- they just don't, they just don't know what, you know, about this, about this particular, you know, aspect of, of, of experience. ADHD, to me, is an experience.

Alex Partridge (9:41): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (9:42): It's not a, a disorder (chuckles) or a disability, a learning disability. It's, it's an experience, and it's a way of living, um, where your, your, your mind is almost- I mean, everyone's mind is limitless, but we are very attuned to that. We're constantly in nonstop, limitless mode. Whether it's internal or external, we're just, we're just living in a, on a slightly different frequency.

Alex Partridge (10:07): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (10:07): I call it, you know, as, as everyone else, where it's like all doors open all the time. And I don't think any doctor that I've ever spoken to, although you probably have, um, has been able to understand that experience. Because that experience affects everything in your life-

Alex Partridge (10:26): Mm

Shanna Pearson (10:26): ... everything, like your work, your family, (chuckles) your, your health, everything. And so that's your life is, you know, every door wide open (chuckles) and, like, what are you gonna do?

Alex Partridge (10:36): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (10:37): How do you start on anything when it's all, every- when everything is, is, is right there?

Alex Partridge (10:42): It feels like ADHD is, is, in a, in a nutshell, it's a heightened sensitivity to your surroundings, and that can, that can expose you to, to vulnerabilities around criticism. You pick up on people's tone of voice, their mannerisms. I think it makes you a great judge of character. It gives you a certain heightened intuition that makes you able to spot nastiness in someone, like someone's true intentions-

Shanna Pearson (11:06): Yeah

Alex Partridge (11:06): ... before other people see it. But on the flip side of that, that also makes you incredibly vulnerable and able to, to, to detect shifts in mood, you know, and that can really swing your mood on a day-to-day basis and expose you to comments like, "Why are you so Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?" When in fact, you've just-

Shanna Pearson (11:24): Mm

Alex Partridge (11:24): ... sensed something, a slight heavier footstep or a tone of voice, and suddenly you think that person hates you-

Shanna Pearson (11:29): Right

Alex Partridge (11:30): ... or they're mad at you.

Shanna Pearson (11:30): Or you did something wrong.

Alex Partridge (11:32): Exactly.

Shanna Pearson (11:32): Yeah.

Alex Partridge (11:33): And wh- that experience of heightened sensitivity, that almost being in, like, a constant fight or flight mode, yes, it's exhausting, but do you think that's nature? Do you think that's a consequence of what we were exposed to, or do you think that's a, a, a genetic link?

Shanna Pearson (11:51): I think it's both. I really do. I think, I think when, when, um, I believe that everyone with ADHD, regardless of their personality, we all have a very difficult time compartmentalizing.... and so that's like with the all, you know, everything. It's, it's the experience of everything all the time, all at once, (chuckles) yesterday.

Alex Partridge (12:14): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (12:14): Right? And so it's just when you, when you have that experience, you, you're s- you're, you're attuned to everything. You've also grown up (chuckles) different and with a brain that's wired differently than everyone else's. And when you were small, whether you knew you had ADHD or not, you were not like everyone else. And I know that everyone's like, "Well, everyone's different, and all children are different, and we're all, you know, unique individuals," but the fact is, is that if you look at a classroom of kids, the vast majority of them really are quite the same (chuckles) in terms of being kids, even though they all have, you know, different, you know, faces and, and personalities, but they're all quite similar in how they behave. And then there's the ones that just aren't. They're outside of it. And so if you're born with a brain that can't compartmentalize very well, and you've also grown up being completely on the outside of the vast majority of everyone around you, you will end up hypersensitive (chuckles) to, you know, to all things that are happening around you, and you'll take it personally because of... because-

Alex Partridge (13:24): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (13:25): That's not unusual. Of course, you're gonna take it personally. Look at what you experienced for, you know, your formative years.

Alex Partridge (13:31): And it's- we learn, don't we, from a young age, having... If we're exposed to lots of comments like, "Why are you so weird? Stop fidgeting. Why can't you just be normal? Stop being lazy," like, we learn to, to, to change who we are to fit in. It, it almost feels like the path of least resistance if we just adapt ourselves slightly at first-

Shanna Pearson (13:48): Mm-hmm

Alex Partridge (13:48): ... to fit in, and we realize that gives us less exposure to negativity, less criticisms, and that can escalate, right? Compound over a whole childhood to ul- ultimately create an adult who-

Shanna Pearson (13:58): Yeah

Alex Partridge (13:59): ... has masked so hard for so long, has solved the problem of feeling weird so well (chuckles) -

Shanna Pearson (14:03): Yeah

Alex Partridge (14:04): ... um, that they ultimately don't know who they are.

Shanna Pearson (14:06): Yes, and so you're just trying to, um, a big part... First of all, I think the opening chapter in my book is called Why Can't You Just?

Alex Partridge (14:13): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (14:14): 'Cause that's, that's what we've been hearing our, our whole life. It's like, really, why can't you just? You know, when you're a kid, you hear that from your parents. When you're, um, when you're a student, you hear it from your teachers. When you're an adult, you hear it from your partner. Like, it's like this nonstop message, "Why can't you just?"

Alex Partridge (14:32): Mm, mm.

Shanna Pearson (14:32): And you're... And then you start to internalize it, and it's like, "Well, why can't I just?" Right? So then you've been trying so hard to, to be like everyone else, if that's even a thing anymore.

Alex Partridge (14:43): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (14:43): And not only is it exhausting (chuckles) but... 'Cause it's not who you really are.

Alex Partridge (14:49): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (14:49): It's like constantly trying to, trying to, like, you know, fit a square peg into a round hole.

Alex Partridge (14:54): Sure. Mm.

Shanna Pearson (14:54): That is difficult and, and impossible, but it's, um... We're so disconnected from, from ourselves, and it's for exactly, you know, what you're saying. It's 'cause you've been trying to- you've been trying to fit in.

Alex Partridge (15:10): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (15:10): You've been trying to get that square peg into that round hole, and there's a whole... I feel like a lot of our clients are so out of touch. They come, they're so out of touch with their goals. Like, real goals. I don't mean, like, the get-everything-checked-off-the-to-do-list goals. I mean, like, what's-meaningful-for-you goals. Now that they've already... You know, they've chosen their career-

Alex Partridge (15:31): Mm

Shanna Pearson (15:31): ... and they're doing this thing, what are their- what do they actually want? And they don't know, and you can't know (chuckles) what you want if you don't- if you're not connected to yourself.

Alex Partridge (15:43): How do you think someone can become more connected to their self, their inner child? Like, what, what, what exercises can someone do to try and minimize that gap between their true self and their masked self?

Shanna Pearson (15:54): I think for people who have ADHD specifically, I, I... We have to do a lot of things very intentionally. So, I mean, the question that you're asking, I, I feel like 90% of people who would be asked that question would be like, "Well, there's this great, you know, meditation." It's like, "And becoming one," and like, you know, be- uh, do you meditate?

Alex Partridge (16:14): I've tried. Like, it's so boring.

Shanna Pearson (16:16): Oh, my gosh.

Alex Partridge (16:16): I can't, I can't just focus on nothing.

Shanna Pearson (16:18): Right.

Alex Partridge (16:19): My mind... So I lie down, and I start thinking-

Shanna Pearson (16:20): What about your breath? (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (16:21): My breath?

Shanna Pearson (16:22): Focusing on your breath. I can't do it either.

Alex Partridge (16:23): My mind wanders. I can't (chuckles) -

Shanna Pearson (16:25): Yeah

Alex Partridge (16:25): ... these h- highly caffeinated squirrels come back, and I'm thinking about-

Shanna Pearson (16:28): Right

Alex Partridge (16:28): ... a million different things.

Shanna Pearson (16:29): Right.

Alex Partridge (16:29): Um, yeah, I can't meditate.

Shanna Pearson (16:30): I can't either.

Alex Partridge (16:30): It's really, really hard for people with ADHD.

Shanna Pearson (16:32): I, when I was diagnosed, I went to India, and, and I'm like, "I'm gonna do this, okay? This is my goal. (chuckles) "

Alex Partridge (16:38): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (16:38): "I'm gonna learn to quiet my mind," and so I literally went, 'cause I was, like, a backpacker, and I just traveled-

Alex Partridge (16:43): Mm

Shanna Pearson (16:43): ... and I never, I never had a job for very long, so (chuckles) I was always, like, in between. And so I would take whatever savings I had from the last job and, and go somewhere. And I was in India, learning, trying to learn how to meditate-

Alex Partridge (16:55): Mm

Shanna Pearson (16:55): ... and quiet my mind and connect with myself, and it was such a... I, I, it was... I did so poorly (chuckles) in that, and I was even with, uh, the Dalai Lama-

Alex Partridge (17:04): Oh, wow

Shanna Pearson (17:05): ... which was really-

Alex Partridge (17:06): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (17:06): ... cool and such a great experience, except that I didn't really get the full experience because I wasn't- (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (17:10): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (17:10): ... meditating.

Alex Partridge (17:10): So even with the, the best tutor, the best-

Shanna Pearson (17:12): The best

Alex Partridge (17:12): ... mentor in the world. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (17:13): And all the monks, and everybody's, like, there, and everyone's doing it, and it's- it's just, like, constant, constant, constant. But in terms of intentionality and connecting with yourself, I accidentally realized that, um, my mind did shut down and quiet down quite a bit when I'm in motion.

Alex Partridge (17:32): Mm. Yeah, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (17:33): Extreme motion. And so, like, I would be hiking and, you know, or, or just walking or running or... And then I could be in... It's like being in the zone.

Alex Partridge (17:42): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (17:42): Right? And for me, in particular, and we're all different, but for me, when I was in that zone, I would, I would ask specific questions, almost like coaching myself. This is before I knew anything about coaching. But I would just know what questions to ask myself, and I would figure out, like, you know, "Where do I wanna be?" 'Cause I was always going to different places. "And who do I really wanna be with, and, and who would I like to be like?" Or I-... 'cause I was very disconnected from myself, and I didn't know who I was either, even in my early 30s. And so I would, I would be asking these questions while I was in such fast motion, and answers came to me then, and, like, good answers-

Alex Partridge (18:20): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (18:21): -good answers that stuck. And so for, you know, that's, that was an intentional exercise, right, by exercising. (laughing)

Alex Partridge (18:29): Mm. We've spoken a lot about, like, the differences that come with ADHD, and I've thought a lot about this since starting the podcast, but what is normal? Like, (chuckles) if you were to describe someone who is neurotypical, how would you even start?

Shanna Pearson (18:42): If I were to des- describe somebody who's typical?

Alex Partridge (18:45): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (18:46): Well, a typical- how would, how would you describe somebody who's typical? Everyone's... There is no typical.

Alex Partridge (18:52): It's a hard question, right? Because we, we, we assign a lot of descriptors to ADHD, so neurodivergence, but then we also use the word neurotypical, and I've always struggled to actually define what that means. Like, is, is normal a myth? Is there no such thing as normal?

Shanna Pearson (19:05): I don't believe in- I don't believe there's any such thing. I just think we're... I think we have to st- can we stop, like, labeling-

Alex Partridge (19:11): Mm

Shanna Pearson (19:11): ... every single thing? It's like we're just humans. (laughing)

Alex Partridge (19:15): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (19:15): We're just humans trying to do our best. And, and our, our group of people are, I think, oh, my gosh, so lucky in some ways that we have this nonstop brain that's open to everything all the time.

Alex Partridge (19:31): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (19:31): And it's like, you know, our- all of it is, is happening all at the same time, which means that our thoughts are really, really are, could be quite out of the box. You know, we're able to see so many different angles to so many different things all at once, which is amazing, and it's incredibly difficult, which makes it not lucky, right?

Alex Partridge (19:51): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (19:51): But it's really... This is, this is how we're wired, but we don't have to put so much, um... I think if we put less heaviness on it and just focused on what to do about it, I think a lot of us would feel a lot better.

Alex Partridge (20:09): It is a bit heartbreaking, though, because a lot of the guests that I speak to and, and the women I meet, uh, at events, like, they, they, they know that they're different. They feel different. Um, and a lot of those differences are brilliant.

Shanna Pearson (20:20): Yeah.

Alex Partridge (20:21): But because they're different, they hold a lot of shame about those differences, and they sort of withhold them. They stop them from coming to the surface, which is, which is really sad. Like, how can somebody embrace their differences?

Shanna Pearson (20:33): I think that we have to embrace our differences, and we also- it's, it's almost like saying, "How do we embrace our... How do we embrace our, our hands?"

Alex Partridge (20:41): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (20:42): "And how do we embrace-

Alex Partridge (20:43): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (20:43): ... our elbow? Let's embrace our elbow." Okay, like, really, like, this is a great elbow.

Alex Partridge (20:47): Sure.

Shanna Pearson (20:47): Come on!

Alex Partridge (20:48): Yeah. (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (20:48): You've got, you've got, like, two fantastic elbows. Like, how do we embrace our differences? Just embracing, by embracing yourself, you can look at... What I love to do with our clients is notice what you've done right. It's like what people tell parents to tell their kids, you know, "Focus on what you've done right." How about just doing that for yourself?

Alex Partridge (21:08): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (21:08): You know, what did you do well? Don't look for amazingness. Don't look at, like, anything groundbreaking because you'll- it's really hard for most of us to see any of that, even if there is, even if it's there. But just focus on what you're doing well, and then don't just think about it. Write it down. Because if I told you to focus on any kind of success you've had over the last week, you would think about it, and it might feel good, but the second that you get pissed off, you're gonna forget about it.

Alex Partridge (21:38): Mm. Object permanence, like out of sight-

Shanna Pearson (21:41): Completely

Alex Partridge (21:41): ... out of mind.

Shanna Pearson (21:42): It's gone. It's gone.

Alex Partridge (21:43): Success amnesia is a, you know-

Shanna Pearson (21:44): Yeah

Alex Partridge (21:45): ... it's just a fancy way of saying, "We literally forget about the stuff we're good at." (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (21:49): All the time. So one of the exercises, um, that we do with our clients a lot, which I think is super helpful, and it's in the book also, and I think everyone should do this, it's called facts are friendly. And I feel like we're very emotional, but if somebody s- if you're, if you're in the worst mood ever and, and someone just really pissed you off and told you that, you know, nobody liked your video, (laughing)

Alex Partridge (22:13): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (22:13): like, and you felt really bad about yourself, and then, you know, and I- and, and, and then somebody said, "No, no, Alex, you're wonderful," are you gonna believe them? Pro- maybe not. You might not, right?

Alex Partridge (22:26): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (22:26): But if somebody said, "Alex, two times two is four," are you gonna believe them? Of course, you're gonna believe them, 'cause two times two is four. Okay, so you believe what's factual. So facts are friendly, I think, is awesome because what we do is you just write down the facts about anything you've done that was a positive, and I w- I always tell our clients to keep it small. Keep your facts really small. You got up on time today, (chuckles) like, okay? You gave somebody a hug before you left. You, you know, you, you helped somebody, or you did this for yourself, or, you know, you managed to not forget-

Alex Partridge (22:59): Mm

Shanna Pearson (22:59): ... XYZ. Anything that's a fact that shows that you're actually progressing from point A to point B, and if it's, like, a bigger suc- you know, a success, then you can write those down-

Alex Partridge (23:09): Mm

Shanna Pearson (23:09): ... obviously. Um, but we really focus on the facts because you can't negate a fact, even when you're feeling terrible about yourself. You can't. It's like two times two is four. It's like, "No, it isn't!" (laughing)

Alex Partridge (23:23): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (23:23): "Don't tell me that. It's not true!" Yes, it is. And so we have people write down facts of, of what's been going right, and then also have them write down, not just think about it, but write down how they felt about whatever it was that they did. You know, if it was something that was in any way monumental, and how they did what they did. What did you do to make that happen? How, how did you do that? You know, what did you do differently? And so now people are starting to focus on what's... focusing on, on-

Alex Partridge (23:55): Mm

Shanna Pearson (23:55): ... on what's right and what- not what's wrong. And, and by writing it down, and this is key, that sounds so juvenile in a way, but you have to, you have it there right in front of you when, not if, you forget. 'Cause you will forget.

Alex Partridge (24:08): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (24:08): You're gonna forget, like, in an hour.

Alex Partridge (24:10): Really useful, and I think, like, it's okay to move the definition of what a successful thing is, like, depending on your mood that day.

Shanna Pearson (24:18): That's exactly right.

Alex Partridge (24:19): Like, getting out of bed-... can feel easy on some days-

Shanna Pearson (24:22): Yeah

Alex Partridge (24:23): -but if stuff's hap- if stuff's going on in your life, then that can completely change how much energy you've got that particular day.

Shanna Pearson (24:29): Yeah, you really don't wanna get out of bed.

Alex Partridge (24:30): If you're, like, going to work, and you're- you've gotta reply to five emails, it's easy to say, "Well, okay, replying to five emails is successful," but some days, just turning on your laptop is the task, right? (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (24:40): Just sitting down and, like, trying to focus on anything is- feels impossible some days. So yeah.

Alex Partridge (24:46): Forgetting your successes, like, I feel like success amnesia, that's quite a niche characteristic, certainly from my experience in speaking to many people with ADHD, that-

Shanna Pearson (24:54): Yeah

Alex Partridge (24:54): ... a doctor wouldn't tell you about, right? Like, what-

Shanna Pearson (24:56): They have no idea. They don't understand this.

Alex Partridge (24:58): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (24:58): They don't it- so I- we- you know, we have a lot of... This is interesting. I thought this was interesting. Um, we ended up having quite a few doctors who are p- who are clients of ours, 'cause, like, they started off as, like, referral partners.

Alex Partridge (25:11): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (25:11): They send us people, and then, but then they get feedback, and it's... And then they realize that they don't under- they understand it logically. They know how the brain works. They know how, you know, they know about everything about ADHD, but they don't realize how it affects them themselves, 'cause there's doctors who have ADHD.

Alex Partridge (25:29): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (25:29): So working with doctors is amazing, 'cause they know everything. Talk about the client-

Alex Partridge (25:34): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (25:34): ... that knows everything. They have all the answers, but yet there, but they, they still feel there's still a lot of pain in their life.

Alex Partridge (25:41): Mm. If there is a doctor listening or, you know, what other niche characteristics of ADHD do you think there are that perhaps aren't in the minds of many doctors?

Shanna Pearson (25:51): I, I think they... I think a lot of doctors don't realize how hard we are on ourselves-

Alex Partridge (25:55): Mm

Shanna Pearson (25:55): ... um, unless it's a doctor with ADHD, and then they very well know how hard (chuckles) we are on ourselves because they are incredibly hard on themselves and just trying to do it all, whatever all is, um, and having a very hard time of it-

Alex Partridge (26:09): Mm-hmm

Shanna Pearson (26:09): ... because there's so many things to do, especially these days. You know, we're not, we're not in the day where we had to go and, and plow the fields, and it was, like, one thing that we had to do, and you're plowing a field, but you're doing the same thing-

Alex Partridge (26:20): Mm

Shanna Pearson (26:20): ... and it's kind of lovely, (chuckles) in a way. You know, and, and that is not our world right now, and there's just so many different things to do, and if you can't compartmentalize easily, how on earth are you able to follow through on any of these things if it's all jumbled up in one big mush? Like, how?

Alex Partridge (26:36): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (26:37): So the fact that we do, on some level, is amazing. (chuckles) It's like, it's incredible, and then, you know, and there's so much more you can do, obviously, than that. But then even just getting from point A to point B is fabulous, and to be able to do it in different areas of your life, 'cause so many of us, and I think this is also something a lot of, um, medical professionals don't quite understand, we're-- a lot of us are quite good at certain things in certain areas of our life. Like, it's not like people with ADHD are, like, living in a hole somewhere, like, not (chuckles) ... Like, we're quite awesome in certain things, but it seems like al- almost all of us are really challenged in other areas.

Alex Partridge (27:19): Mm-hmm.

Shanna Pearson (27:19): Really, like, especially challenged. If you're doing incredibly well at your work, and you're so successful in whatever that means to you and, and what the world has framed it as, um, your relationships-

Alex Partridge (27:31): Mm

Shanna Pearson (27:31): ... might be, like, down the drain and because it's really hard to focus on all of these different areas. You're, like, hyperfocused on one thing. So-

Alex Partridge (27:39): I guess you have to understand how- what tips work for you to potentially turn your ADHD, your struggles into a superpower. Like, I'm so aware that-

Shanna Pearson (27:47): Yeah

Alex Partridge (27:47): ... I really struggle with memory, and I know that's quite a common one, but I, I take advantage of my brain when it's at its optimal, which is in the evening, and I plan my day-

Shanna Pearson (27:55): Oh, that's good

Alex Partridge (27:55): ... my next day.

Shanna Pearson (27:56): Yeah.

Alex Partridge (27:57): Um, I think, "What are five tasks I need to do tomorrow?" And then I write each one on, like, a rubber bracelet, and then, when I wake up in the morning, I put the five bracelets on, and as I go through my day and complete the task, I take off that corresponding bracelet. Um, and if I c- take off all five, then I reward myself. I buy something off my Amazon Wish List, for example.

Shanna Pearson (28:14): Wow.

Alex Partridge (28:14): It's a little hack that, like, I've realized through age and awareness and experience, like, that is how I turn that struggle, um, or I manage that struggle. Like, do you have any-

Shanna Pearson (28:24): I love that you're kinesthetic like that. I love that you have a physical... Like, it's physical for you, and you actually-

Alex Partridge (28:29): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (28:29): ... take off the band, and, you know, instead of just crossing it off a list.

Alex Partridge (28:32): Well, it's almost like gamifying it as well.

Shanna Pearson (28:34): It is.

Alex Partridge (28:34): Like, if I-

Shanna Pearson (28:35): For sure it is.

Alex Partridge (28:36): Well, do you have any other tips of, of how somebody might be able to turn their struggles into a superpower? A quick word from our sponsor with a riddle. Can you guess the answer? Only one in 20 people can. What has two eyes, is smaller than a fingernail, lives inside your phone, and improves every element of your life and helps you remember all those social plans you made because you didn't know how to say no? Well, it's Tiimo app, of course, and I'd be lost without it. Literally, I'd never had made it to the studio. Tiimo app has organized me in a way no amount of notebooks ever could, and it's improving, evolving with your needs, and now it's even more simple with the AI co-planner.

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Shanna Pearson (29:47): So I wanna just reframe it. I, I, I feel like a lot of our struggles are struggles.

Alex Partridge (29:53): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (29:54): And I don't, personally, I don't love the word superpower, and I'll tell you why. I have, like, a thing about it, an aversion, because I think about... I don't know when it became, like, a big thing that ADHD is a superpower.

Alex Partridge (30:06): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (30:09): I don't think it is a superpower. I think it's really, really hard to have ADHD, and sometimes when we tell people, "You know, let's turn this into a superpower," or, "You have ADHD, like, do you realize that that's actually a superpower?"... and they feel like, they feel horrible about themselves-

Alex Partridge (30:28): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (30:28): -and they, and they can't get out of bed on time, and they can't do anything right according to whatever right is for them and other people, it feels even worse. Because now I have this superpower, and I'm failing at that, too (chuckles) you know? So I always like- I, I always, like, want people to know that ADHD is, is actually quite hard to live with, um, on so many levels. And, and the challenges, the challenges that we have, we can turn them around-

Alex Partridge (30:58): Mm

Shanna Pearson (30:59): ... so that we're not challenged by them anymore, period. And they just become like... They kind of evaporate from this heavy challenge into just, like, this is just, you know, this is, "Now I know what to do, and now I know how to, how to do this-"

Alex Partridge (31:13): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (31:13): -versus thinking of it as, like, turning it into a superpower because there is no, there is no su- I think our, our, you know, something we're amazing at is hyperfocusing.

Alex Partridge (31:21): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (31:22): That's, that's great, but it can also keep us away from other things that we want to be doing or need to be doing also. So it's about balancing. That's, that's the goal.

Alex Partridge (31:31): I feel like one of those challenges or key challenges is, like, just feeling misunderstood, um, because of those differences perhaps. The way you go about the world is just slightly different to what you've been taught is, quote-unquote, "normal."

Shanna Pearson (31:43): Yeah.

Alex Partridge (31:43): Um, like, for example, we mentioned earlier that overwhelm sometimes. You know, those highly caffeinated squirrels all in your head, spiraling around, different thoughts pulling you in a different direction, and you physically can't move sometimes because of that overwhelm.

Shanna Pearson (31:54): You're paralyzed.

Alex Partridge (31:55): And that can look like laziness to those close to you, but that's an example. How can ADHD be misunderstood generally to those close to you?

Shanna Pearson (32:05): I think that- I think you just hit it on the head. When, when you're paralyzed in overwhelm, you can literally be like this.

Alex Partridge (32:14): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (32:14): Like, and you have like a thousand things to do, and you're just sitting there, like, trying to figure out what on earth you're gonna do first and how you're gonna do it, and this is sort of how it feels in your brain-

Alex Partridge (32:24): Mm

Shanna Pearson (32:24): ... where you're just, like, bracing. And everything sort of feel- You know what? Do you like amusement parks?

Alex Partridge (32:29): Yeah, for sure, roller coasters.

Shanna Pearson (32:31): Okay, so I love roller coasters, too. And you know how it's, like, really scary when you're going up the hill?

Alex Partridge (32:36): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (32:37): Like, we talk about going down, but it's like-

Alex Partridge (32:38): Yeah (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (32:39): ... when you're going up (laughs)

Alex Partridge (32:40): I always think the metal cable's gonna snap. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (32:42): Yeah! Like, who's holding this, and why do we trust those people? (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (32:46): On destination-

Shanna Pearson (32:47): The whole, like-

Alex Partridge (32:47): ... it comes riding to, yeah

Shanna Pearson (32:47): -engineering of this ride. But you're going up the hill, and it's like click, click, click, click, click. And you know (chuckles) you're getting to the top, and, and that feeling in your stomach, and I feel like that's... We live with that-

Alex Partridge (33:02): Mm

Shanna Pearson (33:02): ... 24/7, where it's just like slowly, slowly, slowly, and it's building and building and building, and you're about to, like, let go and, like, fall off of something, but you don't even know what that is. And you're, and you're constantly bracing for that, and that is very stressful, and it's, and it's hard. And it... A lot of our clients, like you just me- like, you're on the verge of tears.

Alex Partridge (33:24): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (33:25): You're on the verge of tears all the time, and that's something that a lot of people misunderstand. Because this is not laziness. Like, you're not feeling lazy when you're going up that roller coaster. (chuckles) You're not. You're just, like, you're bracing, and that experience is, is such a big part of us that a lot of people can't even express.

Alex Partridge (33:47): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (33:48): And so now you're bracing for something, and you're really, like, trying to figure out these, like, 13,000 things that you need to do, and three of them have to be done incredibly well. And then somebody comes in and asks you, "Hey, did you take out the trash?" (chuckles) You know, your partner or your roommate or whoever, and you're like, "What?" (chuckles) And then you'll snap at them. "How can you ask me that? I'm sitting in my chair!"

Alex Partridge (34:12): (chuckles) Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (34:13): (chuckles) And it's like, that's a misunderstanding, 'cause they're just like, now they've been yelled at for asking you-

Alex Partridge (34:17): Mm

Shanna Pearson (34:17): ... to take out the trash. They have no idea that you're sitting there freaking out about, you know-

Alex Partridge (34:22): Mm

Shanna Pearson (34:23): ... all of the stuff that's in your mind. So I think, obviously, communication- (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (34:28): Sure, yeah

Shanna Pearson (34:29): ... helps people understand what's going on if they, if they know, like, how it is.

Alex Partridge (34:34): They would assume that, like, if you're not doing anything, (clears throat) that you're enjoying yourself, right? If- they must think, "You're not doing anything. You must be having a great time," but-

Shanna Pearson (34:41): Yeah, you're browsing on Amazon. (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (34:43): The, the, the chaos is in our head, right?

Shanna Pearson (34:44): Exactly.

Alex Partridge (34:45): Someone described it as, I think, you know, if you're at school, and you sort of rock back on your chair, you swing back on two legs.

Shanna Pearson (34:49): Yeah.

Alex Partridge (34:49): And that moment where you swing back slightly too far, and it feels like you're gonna topple over-

Shanna Pearson (34:53): Yeah, sometimes you do (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (34:55): ... that moment, the way you, where you're- the anxiety of feeling like you're gonna go flying back-

Shanna Pearson (34:58): Exactly

Alex Partridge (34:58): ... that, that feeling in that moment-

Shanna Pearson (34:59): Yeah

Alex Partridge (34:59): ... that's constantly how we feel. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (35:01): That's it.

Alex Partridge (35:02): I like the rollercoaster analogy.

Shanna Pearson (35:03): Yeah.

Alex Partridge (35:03): It's like a constant state of anxiety, worry, that you're gonna let someone down.

Shanna Pearson (35:07): And then that, like, holy crap moment-

Alex Partridge (35:09): Yes

Shanna Pearson (35:09): ... where-

Alex Partridge (35:10): But they don't see that, right? That's the misunderstanding.

Shanna Pearson (35:12): They don't know it.

Alex Partridge (35:12): They all-

Shanna Pearson (35:12): They don't see it. They don't understand it. It's invisible.

Alex Partridge (35:14): They just see a still person scrolling social media.

Shanna Pearson (35:17): Yeah, and, and shopping-

Alex Partridge (35:18): Mm

Shanna Pearson (35:18): ... you know, or watching or just watching nonstop, like, you know, show after show after show-

Alex Partridge (35:25): Mm

Shanna Pearson (35:25): ... because you're just trying to distract your mind enough that you can feel-

Alex Partridge (35:28): Mm

Shanna Pearson (35:29): ... a little bit more grounded and a little bit more calm and take you out of that nonstop spin-

Alex Partridge (35:34): Mm

Shanna Pearson (35:34): ... of, of w- what I, what I would call, like, true chaos, internal chaos, where... And it has nowhere to go-

Alex Partridge (35:42): Mm

Shanna Pearson (35:42): ... 'cause, 'cause again, we can't compartmentalize. So it's such a- that's why I feel it- so my book is called Invisible ADHD-

Alex Partridge (35:50): Mm

Shanna Pearson (35:50): ... because, um, there's so many reasons why it's called Invisible ADHD, but our biggest, most painful symptoms are in, are completely invisible.

Alex Partridge (36:01): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (36:01): It's not about, "Oh, my house is a mess. My car is a mess, and, and I'm, and I'm always late." It's not that. I mean, that's a big thing, and it leads to other things, but that's not the pain. That's not... Nobody, nobody that I've ever spoken to wants to be known as well-organized. Like, when I- when, you know, at my funeral, I want people to stand up there and talk about how organized I was and how on time I was. That's not really a goal-

Alex Partridge (36:25): Mm

Shanna Pearson (36:25): ... for any of us. (chuckles) It's just, you know, it's, we just want to feel good, and we want to be happy, and we want to be able to, like, love people the way we want to love them and appreciate them, rather than being always, like, in our head.

Alex Partridge (36:38): ... ADHD women, why do you think they get missed? Why do you think so many were diagnosed late?

Shanna Pearson (36:43): I, I think that we were, back in the day (laughs) when, when I was in school, way long ago- (laughs)

Alex Partridge (36:51): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (36:51): ... the horse and the buggies. No, the-

Alex Partridge (36:53): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (36:53): I mean, at that time, honestly, it was, it was a boys thing.

Alex Partridge (36:57): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (36:57): And, and the boys, um, who have ADHD in general, and I, I want to stress in general, because there's plenty of boys that don't do this, um, but in general, the majority of boys are very external in their hyperactivity, so they're more disturbing. Like, they're disruptive in class. They're running around. They can't sit still. They're, like, pulling on girls' hair. They're, they're being annoying to other people. (laughs) And so the, the teachers, it's like the, the squeaky wheel, and, you know, that kid is gonna get a lot of attention-

Alex Partridge (37:28): Mm

Shanna Pearson (37:28): ... and is gonna get noticed, and the teachers are gonna be, you know, calling the parents, and tell- and the parents are gonna be taking the kid to the pediatrician. Like, "What is wrong with my kid? Um, that kid just can't sit still." The girls, in general, (laughs) 'cause plenty of girls are not like this, but most of them are, are internal, and their hyperactivity is like... It's kind of like what we were describing now, where- but we have it... I mean, a lot of men have it later in life-

Alex Partridge (37:52): Mm

Shanna Pearson (37:52): ... um, that their external, like, goes internal. But girls have always been the internal hyperactivity, and they are literally sitting there silently, silently, not disturbing anyone, just in their mind, completely in their mind, whether they're trying to please their teacher, or trying to get something right, and they don't even know what they're trying to get right, or just, like, getting lost in a daydream-

Alex Partridge (38:15): Mm

Shanna Pearson (38:15): ... because it's a beautiful daydream, and it's definitely more interesting than what's happening in class right now in front of them. Or, you know, just, you know, just, just inside, and you're not disruptive.

Alex Partridge (38:26): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (38:27): And your teachers love you, 'cause you don't say anything (laughs)

Alex Partridge (38:30): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (38:30): ... 'cause you're, like, you don't even know what's going on. (laughs) So you're very- you're an easy, you're an easy student.

Alex Partridge (38:35): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (38:35): And so we got missed, because we tended to be very quiet, in general. (laughs)

Alex Partridge (38:41): In your book, you, you speak about smart yet scattered women. Um-

Shanna Pearson (38:45): Mm.

Alex Partridge (38:46): Do you meet a lot of these women? What does that sort of brain look like? What frustrations can come with being smart, yet scattered?

Shanna Pearson (38:55): When, when you have a nonstop brain, and it's just going at, like, 100 miles an hour, and there's like... Uh, you see every possibility open all at the same time.

Alex Partridge (39:08): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (39:08): So there's no time and place for each possibility. It's all there right now, and which is why the, we get scattered, because, like, you're going there, and then you're going there, and you want to go there, and you want to go there, and you want to go there right now, like, and yesterday, right?

Alex Partridge (39:21): Yes. (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (39:21): And maybe also next week, 'cause that would be great. (laughs) But it's just, that's... And because we're intelligent people in general, like most of us are, all of these possibilities keep getting bigger, and there's more possibilities, and we're thinking of more ideas, and more different ways of doing the same things. And, well, that's interesting, and we're very curious, because we see everything, and we're open to everything, and it's all interesting, and we're attracted to what's interesting. We're like magnets towards that, because we need the stimulus, and so it's almost impossible not to be scattered when you're interested in seeing and engaged in so many different things at the same time. It's... How could you not be scattered?

Alex Partridge (40:03): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (40:03): Of course, we're scattered. You know, maybe that's like, maybe that's fine. Maybe it's totally fine to be, like, so alive, and invested, and, like, really, like, like, just locked into so many different things.

Alex Partridge (40:18): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (40:19): It's beautiful. Think of what everyone else is missing, right? And then also it makes life very hard, (laughs) because-

Alex Partridge (40:26): (laughs)

Shanna Pearson (40:26): ... well, can't you-

Alex Partridge (40:27): Mm

Shanna Pearson (40:27): ... why can't you just, (laughs) you know, pick one thing, or why can't you just, like, just, like, follow through on that? And so that's a learning, and if there's one thing I know 1,000% for sure, it's that all of this is actually manageable, 100%, because, like, even if I thought, "Okay, well, you know, it worked for me, but I don't know if it's gonna work for other people," like, now I can firmly say that all of the, a, like, our challenges, we can learn how to manage them. We're not, we're not damaged. This is all learnable in the same way that you teach a kid how to dance.

Alex Partridge (41:02): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (41:02): You know, no k- or, or, or how to ride a bike. Like, we're, we're not born knowing how to do certain things, and some people are born with the ability to compartmentalize, and we are not, and so we learn how to, and that's it. And that's it. It's not a horrible life sentence. You can just learn how to do things differently.

Alex Partridge (41:23): I've spoken to a ton of, uh, ADHD women on this podcast, um, and they speak of their differences and the, the experiences that those differences have created in their past, maybe in romantic relationships, like RSD-

Shanna Pearson (41:37): Oh, yeah

Alex Partridge (41:37): ... how they behave when they're triggered. I get- the feedback they give me is that they, they feel unlovable, which is obviously heartbreaking. Do you, do you think generally ADHD women f- have a internal feeling of being unlovable?

Shanna Pearson (41:51): I think that, um, not necessarily as being unlovable. The w- the, the people, the women especially, that I've spoken to, who are, who we work with, that feel unlovable, are the ones that have had the hardest times in relationships. But even... So I want to bring this back, so remind me that I said this. Even they realize that they are lovable.

Alex Partridge (42:14): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (42:16): Because if, if we went back to that guest or those guests that you've had, and they're talking about how unlovable they are, I would immediately ask them, "Who has ever loved you? Who has ever loved you at any moment?" And then I would want them to write down those people, and maybe it's only one person. Maybe it's their grandparent. (laughs) Maybe, maybe it's a bunch of people. Maybe they realize that it's certain people in their family, and maybe they'll realize that-... they had two relationships where this person was madly in love with them, even if it was for two days (chuckles) you know? Or, you know, 'cause a lot of us have a lot of, you know, different relationships, and it's like, it's, it's a little bit, um...

(42:57) That in itself is a little bit challenging. But even if they just realize that this person or, you know, they had this relationship, and this person did love them, so, like, tell me, how did that love feel for you when your grandmother and that boyfriend or girlfriend or sibling or best friend or whoever it was, and you realize the people in your life that have loved you-

Alex Partridge (43:20): It's hard, though.

Shanna Pearson (43:20): You're factually lovable-

Alex Partridge (43:23): Mm

Shanna Pearson (43:23): ... even if nobody loves you right now, or you feel nobody loves you right now, even though I promise you somebody does.

Alex Partridge (43:30): What if that kind of irrational internal critic thinks that they loved a, a version of you that wasn't your true self? Like, a lot of us put on a, a persona at the start of a relationship. We mask. That's not unusual, right? Um, and we can convince ourselves that they loved that version. Then when we unmask in the relationship-

Shanna Pearson (43:47): Well, they loved the version that you were giving them-

Alex Partridge (43:50): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (43:50): -which doesn't make you unlovable. That just makes you a really good, um, person to portray a certain aspect of your personality that you wanted to portray at that time. That's still a part of you, even though it's not, like, your soul.

Alex Partridge (44:02): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (44:02): And they loved that version of you that you chose, that you yourself brilliantly designed to portray, and that was you who did that. That was your creation, so that's still you.

Alex Partridge (44:16): What facts can we write down that can remind ourselves of that? 'Cause I feel like a lot of people, they might put a version of themselves forward into the world, and whether that's intentional or not, it can be very different to how they truly feel underneath, and they can convince themselves that the person didn't love the real version of them, they loved the masked version of them. Like, what facts, going back to your advice earlier, what facts can we write down to reassure us of the fact that our true self-

Shanna Pearson (44:39): Um, how did I create that version of myself? First of all, who was that?

Alex Partridge (44:44): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (44:45): (chuckles) Tell me who that version was, and write that down. How did I create it? Because I created it. You created it. They created it. This isn't something somebody said, "Here's a script. This is who you're gonna be, Alex. In this relationship, I want you to be this person." This is something that you came up with.

Alex Partridge (45:00): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (45:01): It's you, which is beautiful, and somebody fell in love with that part of you, and you don't think it's your true self or your true soul, but it's still something that you created from your true self and from your true soul. It's still you, right? So you just... I w- I write down everything, and I write it down in places like, in ways that I can see it. So I would write it in big letters. You know, "I created this. They loved that." You know, who am I really? Well, you could tell me that you're... If it's... If, like, the masked part of you and the part that you don't want people to see, right? And so which part of you is that part of you? And, you know, you, I would want you to embrace that part of you so that you could then be... You know, you don't know if that part of you is lovable or not, because you've probably never let anyone see it, so therefore, you have zero fact (chuckles) that you're unlovable for those per- like, that part of your personality-

Alex Partridge (45:55): Mm

Shanna Pearson (45:55): ... because nobody knows that part of you. If I always kept my elbow covered, (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (46:00): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (46:00): nobody can say, "What a great elbow," right? Nobody can say, "Alex, you are awesome in this and this and this way," if you've never let anyone see that part of you.

Alex Partridge (46:09): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (46:09): But the parts that you have created and the parts that are out in the world, people love. So, so far, you could just look at that and, and notice that the parts of you that you do put out there have been lovable. They have been, and quite possibly, the other parts that you would like to put out there in the future, and maybe you will, and I hope you do, those parts will be lovable to someone as well.

Alex Partridge (46:35): They have to learn to love all of you, right, even when you get triggered by RSD, whether you, whether they know it or not, and you go inward perhaps with shame or, or maybe you fill up with rage, but you internalize it. Like, they have to love you as a whole, right? Like-

Shanna Pearson (46:48): You know what? I don't know, because I'm married, okay, and I definitely know that my husband does not love my whole, (chuckles) like every single-

Alex Partridge (47:00): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (47:00): ... part of me. Like, there's no way.

Alex Partridge (47:01): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (47:01): He would- he's not that crazy. (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (47:03): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (47:04): So, but, you know, there's, there's cer- I mean, obviously he loves me, right? There's no question, but he does not love 100% of me.

Alex Partridge (47:15): The positives outweigh the... (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (47:16): He loves me, and I am oh... Like, I am so okay with that-

Alex Partridge (47:20): Mm

Shanna Pearson (47:20): ... because he would be nuts. I wouldn't even- I don't even think it would be attractive for him to love certain parts of me, because those are not the most lovable parts of me. (chuckles) So, like, why would he love it? Um, and so I'm, I'm fine owning that, and I'm also fine trying-

Alex Partridge (47:36): Mm

Shanna Pearson (47:36): ... to do better with the unlovable parts of me that, you know, really piss people off-

Alex Partridge (47:40): (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (47:40): ... or just annoy people like crazy. Yeah. It's not- it doesn't mean you're unlovable, though. Like, you can still be loved even with those, I would call them qu- personality quirks.

Alex Partridge (47:51): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (47:51): I think when someone loves you in spite of your personality quirks-

Alex Partridge (47:56): Mm

Shanna Pearson (47:56): ... that are, that are the difficult parts to get along with, that's love, and they don't have to love the most difficult parts of you. They just have to love you.

Alex Partridge (48:05): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (48:06): Does that make sense?

Alex Partridge (48:07): It does, yeah, and I feel like RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria, um, is one of those quirks, right, that needs managing and can cause a, a thorn in the relationship-

Shanna Pearson (48:16): Totally

Alex Partridge (48:16): ... if it's not understood.

Shanna Pearson (48:17): It's a huge deal, and I think that's something that you have to talk to anybody you're in a relationship with about, like, "This is what happens to me. This is what happens to me." Like, y- it, you, you experience RSD, right? So you would tell people, like, you would tell your partner, "This is what happens to me. I don't love it. I wish it didn't happen, because it feels horrible, like I wanna go into a hole and never come out again, and this is not-... something that I embrace with all my heart. I, I would love for this to change, 'cause I don't know anyone with RSD who wants to- who, like, loves that. It's, it's, it's heartbreaking, and anybody who loves you, um, will understand it, even if they don't love that part. Does that make sense?

Alex Partridge (49:06): Mm. No, t- totally, yeah. I mean, RSD-

Shanna Pearson (49:07): So when you separate yourself-

Alex Partridge (49:08): Mm

Shanna Pearson (49:08): ... they'll be like, "Okay, that's Alex doing that, and this is what I need to do when that happens."

Alex Partridge (49:15): How would you describe the feeling of RSD? Like, how, how does it show up in your people you coach?

Shanna Pearson (49:20): And for myself personally, where everything is just like... There's no way... If you think about it, like, we're very porous, (chuckles) so we feel everything. And where some people can be more like a glass, right, where things just kind of like bounce off of it, but if we feel everything, and something happens, like, "Oh, my gosh," like, "when you, when you looked at me like that, it looked like you hated me"-

Alex Partridge (49:46): Mm

Shanna Pearson (49:46): ... "When you say things like that, like, it startles me." And I think for a lot of our clients, that's what, that's what it is. It's like these little movements, like what you were describing earlier, these little s- um, suggestions and, and, and facial expressions are, like, mirrored to us. And I think a lot of it is, you know, showing us how we feel ourselves and asking, like, "Why am I..." You know, just, just taking everything to mean the worst possible thing. That's what it feels like, because we grew up thinking something is very wrong with us or something, "Why can't we fit in, and why does nobody like me, and why do I not... Why am I not connected to everyone the way all of these other kids-

Alex Partridge (50:33): Mm

Shanna Pearson (50:33): ... are connected to each other?" Especially girls, 'cause girls are like, they always, like, stick in groups, and I was never in a group ever. And like, so you're always thinking there's something wrong with you, and then people show you that with a facial expression or a word. You can just ask yourself, it's like one of the things you can do is, is asking, like, what meaning you're putting on it. Like, what do, what do I think she meant by that, or what do I think he meant by that, or what did they... You know, what was that about? And you could just ask the person.

Alex Partridge (51:05): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (51:05): I've gotten really annoyingly good (chuckles) at asking, like, "Did you mean anything by that?" And usually, it's like, "What are you talking about? No. I didn't mean it. What, what do you mean? I don't even realize I did that." (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (51:16): It can be the, like, perceived, right, like, the criticisms and rejections. Like, you could find out about a social event, and, and you could question someone who's going, and they said, "Yeah, this, this party is happening. You can come if you like," If, like, you... And that can really set you up.

Shanna Pearson (51:30): What do you mean if you like?

Alex Partridge (51:31): It can-

Shanna Pearson (51:31): Don't you want me there? (chuckles) Right?

Alex Partridge (51:33): You, it, it, it can make you feel like your presence at that party is going to be a nuisance to them because they haven't explicitly invite- invited you. You almost, in the absence of positivity, like, you assume the worst.

Shanna Pearson (51:43): Yeah, you assume the worst.

Alex Partridge (51:44): Um, do you think this, this thought pattern is more common in, in women than men?

Shanna Pearson (51:49): Honestly, I don't think it's more common in women than in men. I think plenty of men-

Alex Partridge (51:53): Mm

Shanna Pearson (51:54): ... plenty of men experience this. Plenty of men, um, most men have become professionals at masking that part of, of them because they can't look vulnerable, and they don't want to look, like, defeated or sad or, or, (sniffs) you know, express, like, "Well, that made me feel bad." Like, "Well, you don't talk about your feelings," you know? But so many men-

Alex Partridge (52:19): Mm

Shanna Pearson (52:19): ... experience this, and it's really hard, I think, especially for men, because I feel like they have, um... It's less acceptable still, which is sad, for them to, to be, uh, for a man to be like, "Well, why did you say it like that? You know, this is how it made me feel." Like, that's just, like, not very manly.

Alex Partridge (52:37): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (52:38): You know? But you absolutely can. You can, you say it in your own way. Like, "Oh, so you don't really care if I come or not?" "No, what do you mean? I just didn't want you to feel pressured that you have to come. Well, I would love for you to come." Like, you can just turn the whole thing around.

Alex Partridge (52:50): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (52:51): You know, when you're... If it's, like, the party-

Alex Partridge (52:54): Yeah

Shanna Pearson (52:54): ... or whatever, but don't, like, I think just as many men experience this as women, honestly.

Alex Partridge (53:00): ADHD women, I often hear they get misdiagnosed with anxiety, depression before an ADHD diagnosis.

Shanna Pearson (53:09): Yeah.

Alex Partridge (53:09): Why do you think that is?

Shanna Pearson (53:11): I think because, uh, a lot of doctors don't have a ton of information on ADHD and what that looks like. Even the ADHD diagnostic criteria is very executive function based, and it doesn't really touch on the emotional side. So for women who tend to experience ADHD much more on the emotional side, we're gonna, we're, we're gonna be answering these assessments, like, that the doctors give us. Usually, if you tell your doctor you're feeling down or your life isn't working, and why can't I just? (chuckles) They're gonna give you assessments for anxiety and depression, and then if you look at the assessments they give you, so in, in America, I don't... I, I think it's probably the exact same here. This is what they'll give you. They'll give you a clipboard-

Alex Partridge (53:52): Right

Shanna Pearson (53:53): ... (chuckles) and it's gonna have, it's gonna have the depression, you know, self-assessment scale. Like, this is actually what it is. Okay, so now you're a woman with ADHD, and it's like little, you know, little interest in doing things. Now, imagine if you're, like, stuck in school or in a job, and you're like, "You..." It's so boring, and you can't, you can't focus. Like, you're gonna be, like, several days, more than half the days, feeling down, trouble falling asleep, trouble staying asleep, um, poor appetite or overeating. Like, these are, like, I feel like people with ADHD have one or the other. Um, we're not really balanced in the food, in the food area. Feeling bad about yourself, trouble concentrating on things. (chuckles) These are, um...

(54:38) Being fidgety or restless, these are, like, there's, there's nine questions on this self-assessment, and eight of them are all ADHD symptoms.... so you're gonna fall under- you're gonna, you're gonna be diagnosed by your doctor with, with depression, and you very well might be put on an antidepressant, because that's what happens to about 80% of the women that we coach were initially misdiagnosed with depression. And the anxiety questionnaire is the exact same thing, except that it's, it's literally- there's seven, it's a GAD-7. This is what they give you at the doctor's office. You know, trouble relaxing, worrying too much, feeling nervous, being restless, being annoyed, (chuckles) like, when you, like, you know, um, you know, feeling afraid. These are all things that people, especially women with ADHD, experience regularly.

(55:27) And so we are almost always misdiagnosed initially, unless you're seeing a doctor that knows ADHD, in which case they will then (chuckles) look a little bit deeper. But if they don't, y- it's gonna come out like you have... You're gonna show that you have depression and that you have anxiety.

Alex Partridge (55:46): Anger, do you see a lot of anger when women finally realize that they were misdiagnosed?

Shanna Pearson (55:51): Um, I don't know if anger. Some women are, are, are pissed. (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (55:57): Well, rightly so.

Shanna Pearson (55:58): They were, they were taking antidepressants for years-

Alex Partridge (56:02): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (56:03): -and it doesn't work, and God knows how many women that happens to who don't then go seek a different diagnosis, right? Because if you have ADHD and you're misdiagnosed with anxiety or depression, and then you're put on medication, it's not gonna work in the same way that if you're put on, you know, medication to also help your ADHD. And so now your life is still not working, you still feel bad about yourself, you're not able to follow through on things, and you're not, you know... And, a- and you're on medication, and that can make people even more depressed, because now even that's not working, but you think it should be working. So anger, um, frustration, like, so much frustration, like, "What is wrong with people that they can't see what this, you know, what this really is?" But on the flip side, there's a lot of women who are finally properly diagnosed with ADHD, and that's when, like, the light bulb hits-

Alex Partridge (56:55): Mm

Shanna Pearson (56:55): ... and they're like, "Oh, my God, that is totally me," (chuckles) you know? And they're, and they're really happy and relieved about that, 'cause now they actually have an answer.

Alex Partridge (57:04): Do you see significant changes to a woman's life after an ADHD diagnosis?

Shanna Pearson (57:09): Uh, not right after an ADHD diagnosis. I see it in their mood, 'cause it's kind of like the, this, like, the veil is lifted.

Alex Partridge (57:17): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (57:17): You know? So they don't feel... Now they understand themselves a little bit, whereas before... You know, even if nobody else in the world understands you, when you don't understand you, it's really, really difficult. It's awful. Um, but now if you've been diagnosed with ADHD and still nobody understands you, but you now understand you, that's a game changer.

Alex Partridge (57:41): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (57:41): That's a game changer, because now it's like, "Okay, this is why I am the way I am. This is why I do what I do," and you're at a point now where you're at choice. It's like, "Well, okay, is there anything I can do about this?" 'Cause obviously there is, but now it's up to you, rather than everything being, like, lost and not knowing what to do.

Alex Partridge (58:01): And if a woman's listening, maybe they've just had a diagnosis, and they've come to this podcast to find reassurance, what closing words of wisdom would you give to a late-diagnosed ADHD woman?

Shanna Pearson (58:09): Oh, my gosh, the best thing you can know if you have ADHD is that your symptoms and all of the things that are difficult for you, there are- they are manageable, and you can absolutely do things in a way that work much better and much more easily for your brain. And I, I, I promise you, and if this can work for, you know, all of our clients who swore that nothing works for them, and that they are beyond help and beyond hope, I promise you this will work. Like, not this, like, anything, but it's manageable. I know that for a fact, and so you're good. You're good. You just have to take the steps, and you have to learn what you need to do in a way, you know, to do things in a way that actually works with how you think and with how you do things.

Alex Partridge (58:56): Amazing. I feel like that was, like, 22,000 ADHD clients condensed into a paragraph.

Shanna Pearson (59:02): Uh-huh, yeah. (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (59:02): So that was incredible.

Shanna Pearson (59:04): It's unbelievable. It's amazing.

Alex Partridge (59:06): My favorite part of the show, um, just penultimately, I want to reveal your ADHD item.

Shanna Pearson (59:12): Okay.

Alex Partridge (59:12): I always ask my guests to bring in-

Shanna Pearson (59:14): (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (59:14): ... an item that represents ADHD, and yours has been patiently waiting underneath this cloth. I'm going to reveal it now.

Shanna Pearson (59:19): Do, do, do. (gasps) (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (59:23): A sponge. (chuckles) In fact, there's two sponges. One just went flying. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (59:27): (laughs)

Alex Partridge (59:27): Here's the second one.

Shanna Pearson (59:28): Yay! All right, awesome.

Alex Partridge (59:30): There we go. Why does a sponge, uh, represent ADHD?

Shanna Pearson (59:33): We should also have, like, a bucket of water, but the thing about... And, and I lo- you were talking a lot about RSD.

Alex Partridge (59:38): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (59:38): And what I want people to understand about, about who we are as ADHDers is we are incredibly porous. We absorb everything. We absorb all of the stimulus, we absorb all of the information, and we absorb all of the emotion. All of the emotion. And if, if this were, like, emotion, like, you were talking about, like, when, when we, we pick up on everything, right? So if, if there's, like, a whole bunch of, like, external stuff over here from other people, and you put the sponge in it, it's going to soak it all up, and it has nowhere to go except for in this big sponge. And so, like, when you, like, squeeze it out, it's all coming out all at the same time. It's not like we have places. It's like, this is, like, my work area, and this is my home, and this is my relationship. It doesn't work like that. Everything just gets all mixed up in itself and absorbed into one area, and then it all comes out, you know, when it's, when it's too much. And so this is the porousness. Is that a word? It is now.

Alex Partridge (1:00:41): Just make it up. I'm sure it is, yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:00:42): The porousanability- (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (1:00:44): (chuckles) Yeah

Shanna Pearson (1:00:45): ... of, of the ADHDer is how we, we honestly absorb-

Alex Partridge (1:00:49): Mm

Shanna Pearson (1:00:49): ... everything.

Alex Partridge (1:00:50): ... Incredible. I never, ever thought that. I'm not gonna be able to wash my dishes now at home without thinking of my entire- (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (1:00:55): Well, listen, we are, we are porous. That's how- I, I use that word a lot with our clients.

Alex Partridge (1:00:59): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (1:00:59): Which is, like, when you think of yourself like that, you can get it. You can get why you feel so much.

Alex Partridge (1:01:05): Mm. And should we, like, try to manage and, and wring some of that water out, or do we embrace it?

Shanna Pearson (1:01:12): Um, you embrace it, and you manage it. You embrace it while you manage it, because you better embrace it because it's not going away in terms of, like, you're not gonna be a different person, but you're gonna know what to do with all of that emotion.

Alex Partridge (1:01:25): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (1:01:25): And, and especially when it comes to RSD, a lot of times, it's just really questioning your own thoughts and, and not just falling into it and believing every single thing you think, because that would be... You know, that's never a good recipe, (chuckles) right? But people are gonna look at you the way they look at you and say things the way that they say things, um, because of how they are. You know? And the person- and a person who's like, "You know, come to the party if you want," might be very scared of putting pressure on you or might not want you to feel obligated because they don't wanna be that kind of person. Or, you know, they might have their own thing that they're dealing with, and, and just to, just to, to start asking more questions about what you think people are thinking or feeling.

Alex Partridge (1:02:12): An incredibly helpful reframe.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:14): Oh, cool. Good. (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (1:02:16): I wanna do my favorite part of the show, which is also my favorite part of the show. (chuckles)

Shanna Pearson (1:02:20): Awesome.

Alex Partridge (1:02:20): Two favorite parts.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:20): I love that you have multiple favorites. (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (1:02:22): It's the ADHD Agony Aunt section, and it's called the Washing Machine of Woes, because an audience member writes in, and it goes in the washing machine, 'cause that's my item, which- 'cause I always forget my laundry in the machine after the cycle has finished.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:34): That's a great washing machine. Did you... (laughing)

Alex Partridge (1:02:36): Oh, thank you. (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (1:02:38): (laughing)

Alex Partridge (1:02:39): I always ask, like, "Well, do you do that? Do you forget your laundry in the machine?"

Shanna Pearson (1:02:42): I f- I, I, I forget my laundry in the dryer.

Alex Partridge (1:02:45): Right. Okay.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:45): Yeah.

Alex Partridge (1:02:46): But-

Shanna Pearson (1:02:46): Which is equally bad.

Alex Partridge (1:02:47): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:47): It doesn't smell-

Alex Partridge (1:02:48): Doesn't-

Shanna Pearson (1:02:48): ... but it's always very wrinkly

Alex Partridge (1:02:49): - you skip the damp smell.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:50): Yeah.

Alex Partridge (1:02:50): So that's handy.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:51): (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (1:02:51): I have been using the Tiimo app, though, and I have been getting a lot better.

Shanna Pearson (1:02:54): Oh, good.

Alex Partridge (1:02:54): Um, someone's written in, Shanna, this week, into the washing machine, and they have asked, "I feel like I have masked my whole life and imitated those around me to fit in. I don't even know who I really am, and I have no sense of self. This is apparently an ADHD trait, but I'm also told it's a borderline personality trait. How can I tell which it is, ADHD or BPD?" Gosh, that's a tricky one.

Shanna Pearson (1:03:24): (laughing)

Alex Partridge (1:03:24): Feel free to say pass.

Shanna Pearson (1:03:26): I think I'll pass on that one. (laughing)

Alex Partridge (1:03:27): Right. (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (1:03:27): I'm not a borderline personality disorder specialist. (laughing)

Alex Partridge (1:03:32): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (1:03:32): Here's, here's what I want to say to this person.

Alex Partridge (1:03:33): Yeah.

Shanna Pearson (1:03:34): Number one, if you're worried that you might have borderline personality disorder, um, you would- you wanna talk to a doctor about that. You wanna know what's going on with you, and it's good to ask questions to, you know, to you and such.

Alex Partridge (1:03:47): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (1:03:47): But, but take it seriously, and, and take yourself... You know, like, look at it, and, and, and you decide what it is. But more importantly, whatever you're being told, whether it's ADHD or whether it's borderline personality, find out what your challenges are specifically. Like, what am I not good at? What do I wanna be better at? What could really change my life in a, in a really powerful way? And start working on that, regardless of what the- whether it's ADHD or, or borderline personality or anything else, or just in- You know, you're just not feeling- You know, you're feeling really stressed out and chaotic and scattered. Find out what it is and, and figure out, and look for ways and learn ways to, to deal with that.

Alex Partridge (1:04:32): Just finally, Shanna, I want to deliver you a letter that was written by the previous guest, where they wrote their three rules to live by.

Shanna Pearson (1:04:39): Okay. This is good. (laughing)

Alex Partridge (1:04:43): There we go.

Shanna Pearson (1:04:44): Three rules to live by: If something is taking more than it's giving, then that's a sign to get rid of it.

Alex Partridge (1:04:51): Gosh, yeah, deep, but very true.

Shanna Pearson (1:04:54): Use your emotions to help you decide on what tasks to, to do. If something is a effing bastard of a task, call it that, okay? Use your emotions to help you decide on what tasks to do. So I need, I need to say this: Um, in our coaching program, we absolutely do not do that, ever. Because if you use your emotions to decide on what tasks to do, most of us would end up eating ice cream and watching movies all day long, (laughing)

Alex Partridge (1:05:25): (laughing)

Shanna Pearson (1:05:25): ... 'cause that's what I wanna do. (laughing) And that's what I feel like doing. Um, and the things that I really don't wanna do, that have to be done, would never get done.

Alex Partridge (1:05:34): Mm.

Shanna Pearson (1:05:35): And then I would feel like a mess, and then I would feel discouraged, and then I would feel like, "Why is my life not, not the way I want it to be?" Because, um, I felt like the w- the w- the hardest times of my life, I was being driven by my emotions, and if there's one thing I've learned with all the work that I've done with ADHDers is, is it's action first, not emotion first.

Alex Partridge (1:05:57): Yeah, I mean, with a scatty mind and a sponge full of emotions, it can be hard which one to know which one to steer you.

Shanna Pearson (1:06:03): Yeah, and, and, and if you're doing the actions that you need to do in a way that's fun-

Alex Partridge (1:06:08): Mm

Shanna Pearson (1:06:08): ... and that works with your, who you are and your emotions, believe it or not, your emotions will actually change. That's why-

Alex Partridge (1:06:15): Mm

Shanna Pearson (1:06:15): ... our coaching is action first, because the actions create the emotion, which then creates different results, versus emotion first. Not for an ADHDer. (chuckles)

Alex Partridge (1:06:25): Gosh, truly fascinating, Shanna. Um, thank you so much.

Shanna Pearson (1:06:29): You're welcome. (upbeat music)

Transcribed from the episode audio.